Unit Limit

[Ned]

Well the Civ1 unit limit is alive and well in SMAC. I noticed in my current game, played as Domai, that new units were not coming on line. At first I could not believe it. The I check. And yes, it was true. The first units to go were the crawlers, then formers, then scouts. Finally, ships and choppers went. At the time, I had about 980 total units, 600+ non combat (around 500+ crawlers), 200+ ground units, 80+ naval, and 100 air combat. Just as in CIV, I had to delete current units to get new units. So I killed 80 Seaformers. Low and behold, I was able now to get new combat units.

I have seen others complain about this here before, but have never experienced it myself.

Just it case it makes a difference, I am playing on a 180x180 map. As well, all the other civilizations have 200+ units of various kinds as well.

Ned

[Rift]

This is logical, since too many units can be too much for your computer to handle, and the best way to solve this problem is to put a unit limit. I've never played on any map larger than the default huge map, so I've never encountered this problem.

[Googlie]

Hmmm - I wonder if the nap size is a limitation?

In an old (saved) game I am on the max-sized custom map (512 x 512) and together we have a total of 1735 units in play (I transcended the next year so never really tested the unit limit)

I'll open it up and instead of transcending I'll churn out units and see what happens.

G.

[Ned]

Rift, I don't think this is a computer issues - although I do get the message on start that the game is not compatiple with this computer. I am running a Pentium 4 with 384 megabytes of RAM. However, even with this amount of horsepower, the game still takes more than a minute to complete the end-of-turn sequences. As I said, I have nearly 1000 units, and each of the other factions has several hundred.

This is the first game I developed crawlers to the extent I have. I have around 60 bases, and each of them has on an average of 8+ crawlers. As well, I have special bases doing nothing more than making high-valued crawlers for later building SPs. All told, I have around 600 crawlers out there.

I have been able to manage only because I give all conquered bases away to Miriam, my pact sister. This minimizes my unit count to some degree. However, I am creating a potential monster, as Miriam is now second on the power meter and if she ever revolts....

However, from a macro point of view, this is a very interesting game. I am playing with personalities, but not the social agendas, scrambled. Diedre is set to "Conquer," ditto AKI. Santiago is "pacifist." Santiago for a long time lead in tech, and prefers to build infrastructure rather than fight. However, Diedra's stays in Fundy, Power. Her tech production is pathetic. Aki, normally a tech leader, is trails in that category.

Miriam is less agressive, and has been a very reliable pact sister.

I am playing Domai. My problem has been overbuilding, leading to cash shortages. Thus the crawlers bringing in energy. Without them, Domai would die. (I am also playing without survey pods. Without them, the game is a lot harder!)

However, this is the first game I have played where I have built every facility available. I now appreciate Geosynchronous Survey Pods. These are generally a lot more effective than Sensors both in range and because they cannot be destroyed, but because are the "only" way to equip your sea bases with sensors.

[Rift]

Ned,

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding your point, but the unit limit is not based on how powerful your computer is. If they set the unit limit to, oh say, ten thousand, it would probably work on your computer, but my piece of scrap metal won't be able to handle it. I'm assuming that if a player reaches the set unit limit, his game would still run, despite his computer power. But it's only a hypothesis...Googlie might be right. If the map limits the units, and the more powerful computers can handle larger maps, they will have an increased unit limit. But maybe we're just missing the simple explanation: limiting the amount of units you have would mean less micromanagement, and you won't be frustrated because there's too many unnecessary components(units) to control.

[Googlie]

Interesting

(I miscounted for my last post - somehow managed to doublecount the # crawlers I had)

It would appear that the max # units is 1526

I carried my Yang saved game forward, delaying Transcendence, and producing 1 crawler every turn (buying to completion where the time was more than 1 year. I had 85 bases, so excluding the 1 that had almost built the Ascenyt, I should have been getting 84 additional non-combat units per turn. But no. Here are the last 3 years:

2484:

Yang land units 225
naval units 22
air units 75
non combat 358

total Yang 680
Gaians 284
Sparta 118
Morgan 10
University 190
Believers 47
Peacekeepers 197

Grand total, 1,526


2485

Yang land units 225
naval units 22
air units 75
non combat 387

total Yang 709
Gaians 260
Sparta 117
Morgan 8
University 187
Believers 48
Peacekeepers 197

Grand total, 1,526


2486

Yang land units 225
naval units 22
air units 75
non combat 389

total Yang 711
Gaians 260
Sparta 117
Morgan 8
University 187
Believers 48
Peacekeepers 195

Grand total, 1,526


So where were my extra crawlers going? And what gave me the jump in that 2485 year? Well, the jump is easy to explain - Lal dropped a PB on a Deirdre base, and that "freed up" some units space. As for the crawlers, they didn't get produced and appear on the base inventory of units, they simply stayed in the build box, and I believe I got a stockpile energy bonus instead (my F2 screen said I was generating about 8,800 credits per turn, but my energy reserves were going up by around 11,000, before I was (mistakenly) rush building the units.

The game was ironman, so I couldn't go back to the autosave and reload to see if the crawlers actually added were in those bases where I'd hurry built to 0 (to save time on this exercise)

Very interesting.

Does anyone remember what the max # units in CivII was?

G.


[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited April 22, 2001).]

[Ned]

Googlie, Good job. I will count the number of units in my game and see what it is. However, I have been on the offensive for some time, killing dozens of the enemy every move. This has apparently left room for more units for me.

I don't recall ever running into an unit limit in Civ II. I suspect the reason is that that game did not have the need for a large unit count such as SMACX. Civ II did not have crawlers. (I have 550 in my current game.) Civ II did not have "police." (I have 3 police units in every city keeping 9 drones pacified - another 200 units simply for police duty.) In Civ and Civ II, I normally kept the garrisions light because they cost minerals. It would really be unusual if the total unit count in the game reached 1526.

Somehow, I suspect Civ II had the same maximum number of total units as does SMACX.

[Analyst]

This would seem to open a possibility for late games - using large chopper raids to empty enemy bases and then rush building cheap units in yours so the victims can't replace their losses.

[Earwicker]

quote: Originally posted by Ned on 04-23-2001 02:27 AM Googlie, Good job. I will count the number of units in my game and see what it is. However, I have been on the offensive for some time, killing dozens of the enemy every move. This has apparently left room for more units for me. I don't recall ever running into an unit limit in Civ II. I suspect the reason is that that game did not have the need for a large unit count such as SMACX. Civ II did not have crawlers. (I have 550 in my current game.) Civ II did not have "police." (I have 3 police units in every city keeping 9 drones pacified - another 200 units simply for police duty.) In Civ and Civ II, I normally kept the garrisions light because they cost minerals. It would really be unusual if the total unit count in the game reached 1526. Somehow, I suspect Civ II had the same maximum number of total units as does SMACX.

CivII had a unit limit, but I don't know the number offhand. I never ran into playing regular games, only scenarios. Specifically, in the "Global Apocalypse" scenario: 7 fully developed civs on a big world map, maxed-out number of cities, and the game began with the maximum number of units built. The starting round involved a lot of units being lost, enabling the construction of units for a while. However, a message shortly starts popping up to the effect of "too many units -- try disbanding some". Never, however, did I notice the same effect of a large number of units in SMAC -- the CPU crawl -- the processor moved with the same speed as with much fewer.

[Ned]

I counted 1864 units afte restarting my game as follows:
Domai 966
Data 172
Santiago 203
Diedre 111
Miriam 247
Aki 149
Yang 17

This number represents a considerable reduction from the time I had the unit limit problem. I had been at war with Yang, Diedre, Data, Santiago and Aki for some time before this count. I had also reduced my unit count from around 982 by eliminating virtually all my formers and adding, instead, combat units.

I suspect my original unit limit problem occurred at over 2000 units. As I mentioned, when I had the problem, almost all the other factions had around 200 units apiece.

These two unit cap numbers, Googlie, imply that the game must have a buffer(s) it allocates for keeping track of such things as units. The size of the buffer(s) may in turn depend upon the amount of RAM available.

Just for sake of completeness, I also am running Windows ME. At times I simultaneously use this computer as a home network server where others in the house connect to the internet through this one. So at times, memory and resources simply are entirely exhausted. When this happens, I notice that graphics in pop-ups disappear. Later, I can no longer save games. Finally, the game locks up.

I can clear this problem up by restarting the computer and by not using so many other background applications.

I say this, because I suspect the first unit limit problem may have been related to a computer resource issue. I normally have around 200 megabytes free when I start a game. However, I have started the game with fewer than 60 free. Maybe this is the difference.

[Googlie]

I'm running on a PIII 700 with 128MB. Video card is a 32 MB GeForce, but I don't think that affects anything with smac/x. Maybe swapfile size?


[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited April 26, 2001).]

[Ned]

Googlie, et al., After finishing the current game, I continued for a few more turns. Units capped at 1956. Two turns after reaching this number, the game did not come out of recess. Obviously, I had tasked its resources too heavily.

So, we have the same game on two different computers with two different unit caps. Again, Googlie, my RAM total RAM is 384, but typically the game starts with between 100 and 200 free. What is your system's memory?

Ned

[Ned]

Googlie, It could also be related to Map size. Your map was 512x512. Mine 180x180. It would be interest to see if a third map size would general a different number on our two machines. Ned

[Aredhran]

I think it's been demonstrated before that Googlie's humongous maps are actually not as big as he thought they were, due to some game limitation.

Googlie, maybe you should check (again ?) that your map is indeed 512x512 tiles.

[Solver]

Annoyed me in Civ I this. But, IO think this can be changed by editing some gamefiles, and setting the limit to like ten thousand.

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Solver the "Running Beer" - http://www.aok.20m.com