Air Superiority Chopper vs NeedleJet

[livid imp]

Air Superiority Chopper vs Air Superiority NeedleJet....
is one better than the other? Any pros or cons?

[Santiago_Claus]

I mostly use jets so I can tell 'em apart on the map ... har har, but seriously there is a reason to use jets, not for the purpose of interception, for which the chopper might every once in a while use its multiple attacks to advantage, nor in the air defense scramble, which has been bugged from day 0 of SMAC's birth in 1998 in numerous ways I won't go into.

The advantage of the Jet is in providing "air cover"; placing a Jet over a stack of troops protects them from any attack except artillery until the aircraft is destroyed. Choppers are considered to be "on the ground refueling" between turns, so they provide no cover.

The reason fighter jets are required for air cover is that bombers are easy pickin's for enemy fighters while they're out "protecting" the troops -- they defend with armor.

Fighters defend with weapons, however, in an aerial "dogfight". Assuming you're even slightly ahead in weapons tech, it will take 2 enemy fighters to remove 1 fighter acting as air cover. This is why fighters are so strategically important: an army lives or dies on its air cover, and only fighter jets can properly provide it.

What happens if the AI decides to build a SAM Missile Rover? Uuuh ... I've never seen the AI build one, but based on my own use of them, I'd have to say it would be quite a nasty surprise.

Anyway, to answer your question: "Air Superiority Jets provide the best air cover." It's a niche they uniquely fit.

[Vev]

If you stack your interceptor over ground defender units, then would the ground units meet the challenge of the SAM units?

[Commy]

God, I have never actually used air units. Since my first time playing all I use is missiles, probe teams, and a couple recon rovers to do pre-emptive war. But I have to say that needlejets can do a little more than copters by scrambling and air covering. Also, needlejets can go a little farther. Really, I'd have to say the best is to use a combination of both. Have a needlejet for each base to air cover, and copters roaming your perimeter to do pre-emptive war. I'd have to say I agree with Santiago_Clause, because simply put, the biggest reason probably to use air units is to air cover.

[GeneralTacticus]

Commy, I have a question for you. Have you ever seen the devastation that can be caused to unprepared bases by a few choppers with good weapons? Their ability to attack as many times as they have movement points lets them slaughter entire armies if they don't have adequate air cover.

[Skanky Burns]

Fighters defend with weapons, however, in an aerial "dogfight". Assuming you're even slightly ahead in weapons tech, it will take 2 enemy fighters to remove 1 fighter acting as air cover.

I thought the attacking fighter (read: the enemy) got a +100% bonus on the attack. So for an even fight you would need double their weapon strength.

[Vev]

I am uncertain on that. I had a feeling that if two air-superiority units mean, they fight on equal terms using their attacks. Whereas sup-air vs non-sup-air gets the double bonus but still using atk vs atk. Then again I could be hideously wrong.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Vev
I am uncertain on that. I had a feeling that if two air-superiority units mean, they fight on equal terms using their attacks. Whereas sup-air vs non-sup-air gets the double bonus but still using atk vs atk. Then again I could be hideously wrong.

Nope you are right-- Two interceptors face off weapon to weapon ( as modified by morale and damage)-- I have a PBEM where we had an aerial war of attrition going. WE both had the same weapons so attackers would almost always win if there was an attack bonus-- That did not happen

[Skanky Burns]

Ok, I wonder where I got that from then.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
Ok, I wonder where I got that from then.

I HAVE seen an extra attck bonus when an interceptor hits a penetrator-- it just makes an easy kill just a little bit easier

[Skanky Burns]

Thats probably what I was thinking of then. Sorry about the confusion.

[livid imp]

So can the AS Chopper scamble against multiple targets or just conventionally attack multiple times per round?

[Vev]

Only if the chopper is still defending from its base or airbase. If it leaves, then I think it ceases to scramble afterwards

[Santiago_Claus]

> Ok, I wonder where I got that from then.

Probably from the manual, which of course doesn't tell you about the bugs that make its information mostlly worthless.

And so once again we return to the "air combat bug", present in SMAC since its beginnings, often reported, never acknowledged, and never fixed.

The manual states that air combat is in all cases weapon vs. weapon, with armor ignored. Air Superiority is supposed to confer a 100% attack bonus, as well as allow an air unit to "scramble" against incoming air attacks. Most of this is bogus.

Here's how it really works:

Fighter vs. Bomber on the fighter's turn is weapon * 100% against armor, which makes this a turkey shoot.

Fighter vs. Fighter is weapon vs. weapon in all cases.

Bombers cannot attack airborne fighters.

Bomber vs. scrambled Fighter is weapon vs. weapon, WITH THE FIGHTER'S AIR SUPERIORITY IGNORED! This means the bomber dogfights as effectively as if it were a fighter.

Ground Air Sup. vs. airborne is weapon * 100% vs. armor.

The only air combat that works as the manual says it should is fighter vs. fighter and ground vs. air. The rest is bugged, and has been since the game was released.

Particularly vexing is the air scramble bug. A faction with even slightly better weapons can wipe out the air force of an opposing faction simply by forcing air scrambles. Damaged fighters practically throw themselves away, and there's nothing you can do to stop them. A base packed with 1-10-1 AAA defenders is no protection against the dreaded air scramble bug.

The only workaround, unless you have superior weapon and reactor technology, is to land your fighters at bases out of range of your opponents' bombers.

If there were one bug begging to be fixed, this would have to be it.

[livid imp]

Thanks for schooling me I rarely get into air battles with the AI so this is all news to me.