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**Dimension** · February 27, 2001, 07:20

How's that? Didn't need to edit it once

... ACK ... nevermind ... the download link was bad ...

[This message has been edited by Dimension (edited February 27, 2001).]

**lbores** · February 27, 2001, 11:10

Hmmm. Putting an extra 'l' in 'Environmentaly' would be good!

The Spelling Police

**Cybergod** · February 27, 2001, 14:24

Wow! Wicked ideas and graphics! One problem: overpowered. But, as you said, if everyone is overpowered that would make them equal, right . I think that you night have underestimated the power of Economy (for obvious reasons now) and Probecost (cos I use Probe Teams a LOT and I'll whip every ass on the planet if I had -50% Probe action cost ).

By the way, where did you get those graphics from?

LOL

**Cybergod** · February 27, 2001, 14:58

These are come minor changes that I think would be suiting:

Chosen:
TECH: Centauri Ecology, Ethical Calculus
+2 PLANET
-2 MORALE
-1 POLICE
Free TREE FARMS with apropriate tech
-25% Probe action costs
Double Votes
Need Hab Complexes to exceed size 5
May not set Power Values

Drifters:
TECH: Doctorine Mobility, Doctorine Flexibility
+2 MORALE
+1 SUPPORT
-1 GROWTH
-1 INDUSTRY
-1 ECONOMY
Immune to negative POLICE
Free CLEAN ability upon discovering aprop. tech
Free PROTOTYPES
May not use Planned Economics

Ichiban (I am calling them this due to another faction of the same name at The NetworkNode)
TECH: Industrial Base, Industrial Economics
+2 INDUSTRY
+2 EFFIC
-2 PLANET
Penalised for PLANET ratings
Can exceed Population limit by 3
+2 Commerce
-25% Hurry Cost
Extra Drone for every 4 citizens
May not use Green Economics

Objectives:
TECH: Information Networks, Polymorphic Software
+2 RESEARCH
+1 EFFIC
-1 GROWTH
Free HOLOGRAM THEATRES & NETWORK NODES upon discovering approp. tech
Impunity from ill efects of FM
Penalised for ill efects of Democratic
May not run Fundamentalist Politics

Dianetics (strangely it mutated to 'Diabolics' the first time I read it ):
+2 PROBE
+2 POLICE
-2 RESEARCH
Free PSI GATES at every base
Free NONLETHAL METHODS special ability
May not use Free Market Economics

Rollers:
TECH: Social Psychology, High Energy Chemistry
+2 ECONOMY
+1 SUPPORT
-1 POLICE
-2 EFFIC
-1 RESEARCH
Impune to ill efects of Wealth
Begin with one extra Probe Team

Bandidos (sounds a LOT like 'Banditos'):
TECH: Doctorine Mobility, Doctorine Loyalty
+2 GROWTH
+1 POLICE
-1 SUPPORT
-1 PROBE
Free RECREATION COMMONS upon dicovering aprop. tech
TECHSTEAL ability
Starts with an extra Scout Chopper (YES ITS A HELICOPTER)

REMEMBER: this is just my changable opinion...

**Garth Vader** · February 27, 2001, 15:30

Is the free building with the tech something new to SMACX? Because my friend and I were playing custom factions in SMAC and he took free tree farms. I thought it might be overpowered but let him because we both thought he would only get them when he got the tech. He got them from turn one. Is there a way in SMAC to only give the buildings/whatever when the tech has been researched?

Sorry to go offtopic, on topic I have no problem with the overpowered factions as long as you play against eachother.

I have these comments,

The drifters can't pop boom and so have to conquer real early or else be left in the dust. The -1 industry doesn't make that real easy. This is more of an impediment than the Spartans cause your factions are powerful and so will develop much quicker than the original factions.

I agree the Dianetics are a little weak although I have never used PSI gates, so I can't gauge the effects.

The Objective can't pop boom either(easily) but I think the easy +2econ and +2 research helps that a lot. I also don't know what a geo sync pod is either (must be a SMACX thing)

**Blake** · February 27, 2001, 16:10

I actually like the idea of easy +2 econ, hopefully it'll allow the AI's to be competetive longer, especially in research. Balance is very difficult with those factions, the original seven only had a few bonus's and negatives, the more you add the harder it gets to balance.

Dianetic
Free PSIgate ability (at start of game) would be huge, being able to beam formers and garrisons to new bases, ignoring oceans, homing sea crawlers to inland bases and so on, consider that once the Dianetic get a base on another continent they can re-inforce it instantly, at no risk from airpower.

For a underpowered faction prehaps consider techshare ability.

To give a faction a facility before pre-req: Use FACILITY, to give with pre-req use FREEFAC

edit:
The Objective are interesting, the free survey pod would give the effect of +25% defensive combat (in your territory) and make probing very difficult due to 3 square base sighting radius.
[This message has been edited by Blake (edited February 27, 2001).]

**cbn** · February 27, 2001, 16:36

Already there is some divergence of opinion on these. I like what CyberGod did to the Rollers since you need significant minuses to combat am existing plus 2 ECON.

On the other hand his fix of the Drifters -- who look weak in other than a momentum situation, was to add -1 growth (big penalty IMHO) and free prototypes. Given the powerful nature of the other factions I think that this fix may make things worse for this faction and make it even more a momentum faction only. Penalties to Industry, growth AND Econ !! thats tough.

Bandidos -- I would not want to give anyone a free chopper-- that one unit alone could be hugely unbalancing. I thought of these guys as pretty strong to begin with.

Dianetics-- cybergods fix was to give them an extra +1 police and Nonlethal methods and at the same time take away anoher -1 research and that blink ability-- frankly I think that even with the fix they would be underpowered relative to the others particularly if they are not given the extra cash to buy away units/bases of the others. The police will ensure that garissoned bases should have few drone problems but the -2 Research still seems a bit much. Opponents who stack units and probe defend their basis would be tough.

the Objectives-- as cybergod as fixed them I want to play them every time !! They were looking real strong anyway but free net nodes And free holotheatres. +2 Research, +1 Efficiency and FM without penalty !! You've got to be kidding LOL. I mean,-1 growth is a significant factor but not enough to balance all of this IMHO.

Overall I think that there has to be more account of their abilities to get to +2 ECON. Many players are willing to live with -5 Police and -3 Planet to enjoy this benefit with the standard factions. If you are going to give 3 or 4 factions the ability to get there easily or with no effort there have to be large large compensating penalties or abilities for the other factions.

The difference in viewpoints can be interesting since I see CyberGods factions as a good fix on the Rollers but think that it weakened further ones I thought were weak and strengthened the Objectives to a researching almost drone-proof juggernaught. Cybergod probably uses probes and military more often and more effectively that I , and can therefore appreciate better the possibilities of the Drifters and Dianetics. I'm willing to bet that every player who looks at these has a different viewpoint. I guess balance is when each faction has at least some advocates saying it is the strongest.

[This message has been edited by cbn (edited February 28, 2001).]

**Walt** · February 27, 2001, 16:53

quote:

Originally posted by cbn on 02-27-2001 03:36 PM

Dianetics-- cybergods fix was to give them an extra +1 police and Nonlethal methods and at the same time take away anoher -1 research and that blink ability-- frankly I think that even with the fix they would be underpowered relative to the others particularly if they are not given the extra cash to buy away units/bases of the others. The police will ensure that garissoned bases should have few drone problems but the -2 Research still seems a bit much. Opponents who stack units and probe defend their basis would be tough.

I'm not familiar with the workings of the Faction Editor. This suite of factions is the first that stirs any interest in the matter with me. Is there a way to confer the Drones' ability to steal a base, but have it activate not on revolt, but on mere riots? That would be an appropriate leavening factor for the Dianetics. Combine that with an instant Psi-Gate, and their Probe bennies, and you get a potentially vastly more powerful faction.

Walt

**Cybergod** · February 27, 2001, 18:33

Whoops! I didn't realise the impact of the NetNode and a HoloTheatre together! Well, because of their 'supreme architecture' or something, take both of those away and put a Skunkworks facility .

I have certainly noticed that most of you lot here are builders. I am a mixture of hybrid/momentum and the highest techs I've been reaching in my games, before I win , were Bio-Machinery and Fusion Power. I yes, I use Probes a big LOT. So if you see a bunch of probe team groups in a MP game with me, be afraid, be very afraid...

LOL

Any other thing not right with my 'fix'?

**Cybergod** · February 27, 2001, 18:39

Sorry for forgeting to add this.

I think the Drifters are very good for early game conquest. Yes so what if they are pushed so much to that style of play, but look at other ones that are pushed just as much to the builder's side of the scale, hm? If you want to play as them, then I'd recommend a small map with lots of oportunities for early invasions .

Also I don't think the scout chopper is so much unbalancing because it has the same attack as any scout. Just lure the AI into attacking your Plasma Sentinel and see...

I also think that, for SMAX, one of the factions should be Aquatic.

And yes, whoever asked (sorry for this rudeness), in SMAX you can make free facilities come with a small price - the faction needs to aquire the appropriate tech. You do the same for special abilities.

**Blake** · February 27, 2001, 21:28

Okay, so the unity chopper is useless at destroying units, even formers are an equal match for it. BUT it engages in PSI combat with normal odds, AND probe teams have 0 defensive power so the unity chopper can chew through an almost limitless number of attacking probe teams, which in the early game are slowed by fungus forest and rockiness. Basically a well used unity chopper makes probing very difficult, unless probes are coming from multiple fronts.

edit: My opinion is that the Unity chopper is powerfull, but not too powerfull, considering a single unity rover escort for probes nullifies it's offensive capabilities, leaving it with only it's scouting and PSI combat abilities. The AI's can forget about probing a human with a unity chopper.
[This message has been edited by Blake (edited February 27, 2001).]

**cbn** · February 28, 2001, 01:23

Players debate the relative merits of the the 14 current factions so I guess you should get a good cross section of opinion. These new factions are definitely far more powerful than the original 7 as you state . Which one of these that you like will probably reflect your favorites from the originals. As for balance that will always be difficult since we all know that a factions "strength" can vary greatly with map size, fungus, nearness of other factions etc.

With all those caveats I can say the following

1.the Chosen -- looks like a friendlier Cult with a few unrelated extra powers. Big question-- is the tree farm immediate or does it come only after attaining the tech ?? The Hab complex requirement seems to limit this one to ICS style but with an immediate tree farm, minimal terraforming could make all the size 3s good little production centres.

2.Drifters -- These look like the Spartans but with some huge minuses. They look like a pure momentum faction since all the pluses appear to be military. FM does not get them to +2 ECON without Wealth but this is balanced somewhat by the fact that the Police Penalty will have no effect. Clean units can rock but this ability makes the support plus ineffective later and probably comes too late to swing the tide of most games..

3. Zaibatsu- they look like the Drones without the research penalty. This bunch can rush build infrastructure cheaper than anyone (Industry bonus means less cost anyway + a rush-build discount) and can run FM. The Planet disdavantage seems like not much at all while the extra drones thing will be dealt with easily. These ones seems very strong. The ability to build and buy so fast will be a great boon to perfectionists.

4. The Objective -- seem similar to the consciousness but immunity to FM effects seems to be huge. Hard to assess since you do not specify the penalty for democratic politics. If there is a penalty for Demo and they can't use fundy I can see them spending a lot of time in frontier.

5.Dianetic-- look weaker than the others. Inability to go FM hurts and coupled with the research penalty would cripple this bunch against anyone with good probe defense. The blink displacer could be a great benefit but I forget when matter Transmission comes-- Isn't that later game??

6. High Rollers -- Wow and wow -- An automatic +2 Econ with a support bonus and no huge penalties. This faction doesn't need FM so SE choices could easily get to it to reasonable efficiency. This faction appears to be Morgan to the power of 2. My assumption is that -1 Police and no police state are designed to give them some drone issues but this group will have so much energy from day one that psych allocations should be easy or rush buying of facilities. Extra military to start almost seems to be overkill.

7. Los bandidos -- a nice combo of abilities. These strike me as the pop boom faction . They wil get bigger than the others faster. A free rec commons and + 1 police combined mean that they can ignore drones for quite some time. The negatives aren't enough to take them from the stronger of these 7.

I'm far from the strongest player around but did try to take a serious look at these factions. I have my own biases, one of which is the huge impact of getting to +2 Econ and the other is that Industry bonuses are huge. I also play more builder-style. So its through that perspective that I assess these factions.

Overall my comment would be that you have made +2 Economy easy and even painless for a number of factions. In that environment, the inability of Dianetic to even use FM seems unduly harsh. This faction has a probe and money advantage and I'm sure can do quite well early game by probing units and bases. Adequate probe defense would seem to kill any advantage. Also the probe bug that nullifies probe ratings over +3 could be a problem. (see edit below)

The Rollers seem overpowered. This comes from my bias regarding +2 Economy. An extra energy in every square ensures that they should research like crazy and nothing in the penalties detracts from that research. The efficiency penalty has little effect early and can be counteracted by SE choices later. It just seems that the extra military and wealthy benefit just are surplus to an already powerful faction.

I also have some concerns about the Drifters. I do not know that the military bonuses will be enough to counteract the industrial and economic bonuses of the others.

As for the rest, they seem reasonably balanced. I thought that the Chosen might be a little on the weak side until I contemplated the effects of immediate tree farms. The bandidos may be very strong if they get some space to gro. hmmmm-- I might have to think about these all a little more to comment further.

It might be interesting to play as dianetic against the Ai as the others (scratch that-- the Ai would have lousy probe defense)--Perhaps you could try one of the original 7 against them or alternately have the AI play all 7 against each other. Although not a great indication of how a faction performs in human hands, it does give a good sense of what the AI can do with a faction.

Edit-- I just realized that the Diantic get the psi gate from the very beginning rather than upon obtaining a specific tech. This IMO changes them to something that would be playable. They could have a quite strong defensive military with no need for roads linking cities. The ability to concentrate forces could make them a formidable military foe. ie build a city and then blink in a bunch of x needlejets.

ont size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by cbn (edited February 27, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by cbn (edited February 27, 2001).]

**cbn** · February 28, 2001, 09:14

I do not see a chopper as a weapon but more for the purposes that Blake outlined-- probe defense and worm killing. I would also add to that quicker exploration. The bandidos could probably not need much defense for the first few turns as the chopper explores out 8 squares in each direction giving ample notice of an attack. The free rec commons mean that you do not need police for a while and the faster growth means that these guys could outgrow anyone either horizontally or vertically in the early game. The range of even a unity chopper means that minimal defense is all that is needed and the quick exploration gives a super-fast ability to determine best city sites, find pods etc. The chopper will also be able to kill the first few (very weak) worms that show up gaining morale upgrades useful for future worm killing. The last advantage is the ability to meet other factions earlier and perhaps get some advantageous early tech trades and pacts.

Overall, I think that dimension did a good job of putting these together. I also agree with Blake that as you make the factions more powerful it gets more difficult to balance them. The more different they become the more that their playability is influenced by game conditions.

As originally set up I thought that the Rollers were too powerful. With the CyberGod fix I probably would still not prefer the Drifters (other than real small maps)but I'm not usually a momentum player so that might be a matter of personal preference than an assessment of strength. I am coming to appreciate the possibilities that a psi gate power along with probe swarms could give the Dianetics-- might be fun to play. If the rollers are toned down and the Objectives are not given both a Holo and a NN free, I can see a number of these being very tough to combat.

**Dimension** · February 28, 2001, 22:13

Thanks to everybody for all the helpful comments, especially CBN and Cyber's big ol' critiques.

One thing I forgot to point out is that my primary motivation for making new factions is to give them more of a sense of style. Even more than the balance issue, I don't like the new SMAX factions because they have very little style. SMAX has aliens, cyborgs, and planet-worshipping cultists. That's just a little too Sci-Fi, and there's nothing to identify with when you choose a faction.

I think it's interesting that everybody sees the Drifters as weak. Keep in mind that this is taking the Spartans and giving them the Doc: Flex and laser tech from turn one, on top of which you have most penalties for having a massive army lifted. I just don't know if there is a way for them have a chance of not getting crushed by people who survive to the mid-game...

Certainly one thing that needs to be looked at is each faction's ability (or lack of ability) to reach +2 economy and pop boom.

Victorians ... or Chosen ... but all their cities are Victorian houses
- FM is not an anti-ideology as per the Gaians, so +2 econ is simple
- Starting with Ethical Calc means early pop-booms are possible as soon as you can finish the Creche and research Planet Nets. Coupled with turn one Tree Farms, I felt the need for the harsh population limit to avoid multiple bases at size 7 before 2040. The only other solution I see is taking away the Tree Farm or somehow weakening them to the point that it doesn't matter how big their cities are.

Drifters
- Note that the Spartans' anti-ideology is Wealth. The Drifters can still get +2 ecomony with FM + Wealth. FM + Wealth is actually better for the Drifters than most other factions, because Wealth brings their industry up to 0, and takes their morale down to 0, while the -5 police of FM does not affect them as they are immune to negative police. Therefore, FM + Wealth basically gives them +3 econ and -3 planet ... hardly economically crippled.
- being unable to use Planned (or Democratic) is a little harsh on anybody ... about the same as -1 growth, really.
I have tried to balance the anti-ideologies to have the appropriate ones hate each other, but I probably should let these guys use Planned to give them more of a chance for a mid-game.

Zaibatsu
- nothing keeping you from getting +2 econ
- nothing keeping you from demo/planned pop booming
- the extra drone penalty might not be enough for this faction... It's not like they get free net nodes and can just rush the Virtual World, but still... -1 planet isn't much of a negative. Maybe taking the planet down to -3 would restrict the industry more, but I really don't know how planet ratings work other than the fungus production and mind worm capture listed in the datalinks. For example, if you had -3 planet and then ran free market for -6, would your eco damage be horrible? Would it just be no big deal?

Objective
- nothing keeping you from getting +2 econ ... In fact, with impunity from Free Market, their FM setting simply gives +2 economy ... Maybe that's a little too easy
- no easy pop boom (-1 growth) ... Also, Demo has double penalties (+2 efficiency, +2 growth, -4 support) ... Can't use Fundy, so you would probably have to stick to Police State most of the time ... This might be a little too harsh

Dianetics
- Can't use Free Market, so you can't get +2 econ until Eudamonic shows up. Might be a good idea to give them +1 econ instead of +1 police, then Wealth gets them to +2 econ... This still fits in with the style of the faction pretty well.
- nothing keeping you from demo/planned pop booming

Rollers
- automatic +2 econ ... Impunity to wealth isn't such a big deal, since wealth isn't such a big deal when you've already got +2 econ, but switching still gives you +1 commerce and +1 industry.
- nothing keeping you from demo/planned pop booming ... One of the great things about +2 econ (or just +1 econ and wealth) is that you can pop boom and have +2 econ. I don't actually see these guys as being much better than Morgan, sinec as I said, running Wealth and getting +3 econ is really just the same thing morgan has, since it gives you +1 commerce.

Banditos
- Can't run wealth, but can still run Free Market just fine and get the +2 econ
- the +2 growth lets you pop boom with only 2 of the 3 things you normally need (demo/planned/creche) ... So these guys can run Demo / Free Market and pop boom with +2 econ like the Rollers

Idologies and Anti-Ideologies:

Victorians: like Green, can't use Power (hybrid)
Drifters: like Power, can't use Planned (momentum)
Zaibatsu: like Planned, can't use Green (builder)

Objective: like Free Market, can't use Fundy (builder)
Dianetics: like Fundy, can't use Free Market (momentum)

Rollers: like Wealth, can't use Police State (mostly builder)
Banditos: like Police State, can't use Wealth (mostly momentum)

This might not be the best setup, but I don't like the way the SMAX factions have no balance as far as anti-ideologies like the original seven. I like the way the SMAC factions have the builders ideologically pitted against the momentum factions. A good penalty for the Zaibatsu would be to make Democracy their anti-ideology ... and it wouldn't be too weird to have the Victorians like Demo instead of Green as their ideology.

Now I'll try and reply to everybody.

quote:

cbn:

The tree farm is immediate. Basically, they're trying to be a cooler version of the Gaians. Every now and then it would be nice to play a faction where you're not spending the half your time building farms/condensors in the early game. It just seems hard to balance a faction that starts with a tree farm and the tech for formers on turn one. I wish there was a way to just make all their terraforming take twice as long, but there's not.

So, you think the drifters are pretty underpowered... Do you have any ideas for a Spartan-esque faction that has a few extras? It's hard to improve the Spartans without making an utterly unstoppable momentum faction.

Yes, I think the Zaibatsu may be too good. Maybe making them anti-Democracy, but I don't just want to make a better Yang. Do you have an opinion on how harsh at -3 planet penalty would be?

Penalty for Democracy means that negative effects are doubled, i.e. -4 support. I like the strength of The Objective... It's got some cool extras, but you can't say it hands-down crushes the University, or anyone else.

I agree the Dianetics need some help. Yes, Blink Displacer is a pretty late-game thing. Ridiculously late, as Matter Transmission is a lv13 tech. It's impossible to give them the ability before discovery of matter transmission. I could always just have them start with Matter Transmission, which happens to also be the tech for Psi Gates, so it fits. It would let them start on the Bulk Matter Transmitter (+2 minerals each base). It's tempting, but starting a faction with Matter Transmission, might just be too abnormal.

You're right, it's harsh that the Dianetics are the only ones who can't get +2 econ easily. A nice fix may be giving them +1 econ instead of +1 police. The defensive possibilities of a Psi Gate, however, or the ability to take over a single city and then pump a million troops there immediately may be plenty for them, though.

quote:

Cybergod:

Do you think it's totally unreasonable for a faction to start with a tree farm? OK, the whole Chosen probe bonus is silly, but maybe their other issues could be solved just by keeping them from pop booming early. That could be as easy as making them unable to use Planned.

That would just be mean to make the Drifters have -1 growth when they already can't use Planned, don't ya think? They probably should have free prototypes, it just seemed silly making them that much more like the Spartans.

You've gone and made the Zaibatsu even better I'm not sure what you mean by "Penalised for PLANET ratings," but I don't think there's anything like that available as a faction mod.

Do you think the Objective is really weak? You're suggesting taking away their Geosync Pod and giving them all the benefits of the University's Net Nodes and a free Virtual World, even though they don't have the University's drones.

Nonlethal methods would probably be more useful than a Blink Displacer. The combination of +2 police, Nonlethal & Psi Gates would certainly make drones a non-issue. You certainly wouldn't be able to call them weak anymore

-2 efficiency for the Rollers might be a good idea ... It would keep them from having such a ridiculously good economy in the early game, and later could still switch to specialists to get around any efficiency problems. Not sure if a probe team fits their style, but getting rid of the scouts might be a good thing ... Giving them -2 efficiency and -1 research seemed like too much when I first looked at it, but you may be right, just because they do have the ability to run Demo/Planned/Knowledge and have simultaneous pop boom, +2 research, and +2 economy, which is pretty ridiculous.

I think "banditos" is really just an English bastardization of "bandidos." I don't think a free scout chopper would be so bad. You can't upgrade it to anything good for a long time, it has a pretty pathetic range, and can't pop pods.

Maybe the Drifters or Banditos (-dos, whatever) could be replaced with a nice aquatic momentum faction that would keep everybody on their toes. I like the Pirates, but haven't played them enough to really have much of a clue about balancing aquatic factions. Any ideas?

quote:

Garth Vader:

I think free building with the tech might only be available in SMAX. I know you have the option of having facilities be free with tech, or just having them be free from turn one in SMAX.

That seems to be the general opinion, that it's a really bad thing that the Drifters can't pop boom. I think I said it above, but the best fix for this would probably be to let them use Planned, and then not let the Victorians use planned, so they can't get huge so easy (and it would also make the severe population restriction less necessary).

The Geosynch Pod makes each city work like it was built on a sensor.

quote:

Blake:

I'm not sure of my opinion on Techshare. It seems like Techshare 3 is somewhat insignificant unless you're completely avoiding research, while Techshare 2 would be entirely too good.

quote:

Walt:

Yes, you can give any faction the "Revolt" ability of the Drones, but I have never seen the Drones actually get a base this way. Keep in mind that revolting is different than just rioting. It only happens after several turns of riots, and the AI will stave a city down to nothing before they will let it stay in riots. The Dianetics +2 probe ability might allow them to just incite riots until a city revolts. Maybe someone can comment as to whether incited riots can ever lead to an AI revolt or not.

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