help with social engeneering

[Garth Vader]

I said I go PS/Green. I never run FM. With PS/Green you have regular effeciency, +1 when you get knowledge, and +2 with the Gaians.

[Sikander]

Garth,

You and I must be the only people who post here who do not use FM. Oh sure, I have used it a few times, and I take a look at what it would be like almost every game, but I almost never end up using it. In my growth paradigm, there is a short period where it would work, but between the loss of police, and the 80 credits it never seems worth it. I use:

1) Planned
2) Planned / Wealth
3) Demo / Planned / Wealth
4) Demo / Green / Wealth
5) Demo / Green / Knowledge
6) Demo / Green / Knowledge / Cybernetic

Planned is great early for the growth and industry, and Wealth for the industry. I go Demo for the pop boom and efficiency. Once my industry is firmly established, and I have built all of my early game SPs I use Knowledge for the Research and Efficiency. Cybernetic merely takes this trend to it's logical conclusion. Playing the University (which I love to do) you end up with an abusive +6 Research.

[Gothar]

I find free market quite useful. But then again i've yet to go for an all out millitary assault game. I prefer to try and make peace with the AI. However in higher diff levels I find this becomes harder. I even tried player on the second highest with the usually peaceful enemy factoins and they were aggresive. It could just be that i'm getting better and the AI tends to pick on the first placed player. What would be a good combo for military actions. I'm thinking police state might be usefull for the +2 support rather then democracy which I usually use. What do you guys think?

[Gregurabi]

It depends so much on the faction you're playing, the technology that's available, the type of assault you're planning, ....

I typically go with Democracy somewhere after my initial expansion and stay there forever. I might switch to Fundy for brief periods if I'm getting a lot of enemy probe teams; Hunter-Seeker is a must-have. I usually avoid Police State because I can't handle the inefficiency.

I'll usually try to run Free Market as long as possible, once I'm in a fairly comfortable situation (i.e., not being pounded by H'minee or Marr or Miriam). But this changes as soon as Doctrine: Air Power becomes available, because needlejets are always considered out-of-territory as far as pacifism drones are concerned. So depending on how badly the inefficiency hurts, I'll usually switch to Planned or Green for the post-Air-power, pre-punishment+clean era.

Once I get the tech for Punishment Spheres, I'll build one PSphere (or sometimes two if I'm spread out on a large map) in a city with good mineral production. Then I send all the air units there and re-home them (don't do this while you're running Wealth, because re-homing units under Wealth makes them lose morale). Once all my air units are supported by a PSphere-enabled base, I can go back to FM without suffering pacifism drones for the planes. Then when clean reactors become availalble, I'll upgrade some of the planes to clean, to free up some minerals in the PSphere base.

(The problem here is that I can't produce a new plane/chopper without taking the drone hit in the base that made it. So I either make all new air units in the PSphere base, or I have a few dedicated plane-making bases which have redundant Doctor/Empath/Thinker specialists, so that when a new plane comes off the assembly line, the drone hit won't send the city into riots. Of course, I immediately fly the plane to the PSphere base and re-home it before sending it out to the front lines.)

Of course, there are always exceptions. If I'm playing Morgan, I normally do not use FM; instead, I'll use Demo/Green/Wealth to get the +2 Econ without the police and planet problems of FM. This may not be optimal for energy production, but I'm not a pure builder (more of a hybrid). And of course there are other factions that either can't run FM, or who could do so, but there would be no point.

Another hint for warfare, in case you hadn't already discovered it: get Neural Grafting and Mind/Machine Interface and build some Drop/Amphibious infantry units. I find that 6^~-3-1*2 works quite well if I have fusion reactors; without fusion, you might have to skimp on the armor to make them affordable. This is a very flexible assault/holding unit. It can airdrop into a land base that's been emptied by your air force, as long as the base has no Aerospace Complex. If the base does have an Aerospace in it, you can drop onto a road 3 tiles away and walk into the base. If the base is at sea, you can't airdrop in -- but the AI often builds sea bases right next to land, and you can airdrop onto the beach next to the sea base and then march in due to the amphibious ability. Plus, with decent weaponry and the infantry +25% bonus, you can actually attack a defended base with this unit. (You get a -50% penalty if you attack on the same turn that you airdropped, but that may be OK if the defender is a rover/artillery.) With plasma armor, the unit can often withstand a counterstrike if it's inside a base with Perimeter Defense and Aerospace Complex -- and if you've built the Citizens' Defense Force and/or Cloudbase Academy SPs, then your newly captured bases will automatically have these benefits. Finally, if you need to take a remote sea base, you can load these guys into a transport and attack just like normal marines.

(In case you didn't notice, the MMI tech is just gross. You get Choppers, Drop Pods, two SPs (one of them being among the most powerful in the game), the "Diplomatic" victory condition and the Thinker specialist, all at the same time. Get this tech at all costs. Try to get it first if you can; but the AI doesn't know how to use it very well, so even if you fall a bit behind, you can catch up very quickly once you get it.)

[Fitz]

quote: Originally posted by mark13 on 11-23-2000 09:58 AM Still, getting back on-topic, I love social engineering, it is one of the things which makes this game truly great. But has anyone ever found a use for Police State outside of playing the Hive? It seems that the efficiency penalty hurts too much to bother with it - and the bonuses aren't exactly game-winning. The police bonus you shouldn't have to bother with anyway - and the support penalty becomes a non-issue unless you have a truly large army....

I use Police State/Green all the time. Once you have a huge army (usually at base size for me), add Power and go on the rampage. I usually start this around size 8 or 9 (without Power), to avoid building anymore drone controlling facilities with the extra police, and spend those minerals instead on more units (and a few extra crawlers for nuts). Once the bases have grown a bit (like to hab limits) and I have insane army at my disposal, switch the extra crawlers you were using for nuts to grow to minerals (or energy if you think like that), add Power, and you're close to unstoppable. The industry hit is usually overcome by the extra minerals crawled in, you have plenty of support for all those units, and the morale is great, and you still don't have to build the most advanced drone control facilities (or waste specialists on Doctors/etc.).

Of course, this tactic is only useable if you have some time to start it up

[Enigma]

Wow, I have never been much of a fan of power or PS except with the factions that these SE settings don't hurt (Deidre/Aki, Yang/Domai). But it looks nice for a size 8-9 base that is a LOT of minerals saved. Maybe even enough to make up for power's deficiencies... +2 support is all that really matters for the years before you pop boom and I never get around to pop booming with momentum factions, and with hybrid factions I usually dont attack much before airpower anyways. It seems this works better for hybrid factions since they are the only ones that will be pop booming early enough for this to be valuable and would have such a support intensive army. As a momentum faction I never bother to pop boom... maybe +4 support would make it worth it. And for Miriam fundy/green/power looks beautiful too- have good efficiency to allocate all of your energy to economy, have the magical +3 morale, AND have the magical +4 support. Miriam can hit a lot of important numbers with that SE.

[cbn]

Since i started playing random factions I have gotten a new appreciation for the different SE choices. My most recent game as Yang is a perfect example. democracy is out and FM is almost useless (i only run it if it creates a +2 Econ --otherwise the advantage is minimal for the penalties incurred).

With Immunity to inneficiency i can run Police Stae with no penalty and actually spent most of my time there with switches to fundy for war but this became less necessary after building all the morale enhancing SPs and the hunter seeker. Plus I self -limit (in this game) in that I do not allow myself to subvert units or bases from the AI (and I already have all the tech that they have) -- With those parameters and a probe garrison in every base who cares that much about probe rating?

With FM not a practical option-- Planned was more frequent than green (love that industry). Of the rest I was actually in wealth for a while for the extra industry bonus for conquering(the Econ bonus was minimal) but now that I am the military and tech leader I have switched to knowledge and will likely stay there.

I actually have had very few games go to the point where the next set of values become relevant (all SP) so I don't have a view on them.


Generally I agree with the idea that all the SE choices have their uses for some factions in some circumstances. Pop booming and the +2 Econare simply two of the most obvious and strongest advantages possible under the SE choices. Some combinations make more sense than others but I am sure that players could come up with circumstances where even the oddest sounding combinations will be the perfect thing-- even if just for a turn or two. Thats what makes this game great.


cbn

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Sik,

I used to be very much in the camp that FM was high on the PIA (pain in the A$$) factor and as such would hardly ever run it. But as I tried to refine my early game approach (i.e. my drive to Industrial Auto), I found that FM had a number of upsides.

My original thoughts on why not FM:
1.Lack of Police stinks
2.Ability to go out and meet other factions is limitted
3. Negative planet means your mostly on a defensive footing gainst planet reprisal

Why I changed my mind on FM:
1.Going as early as possible even over Planned allows at least 20 years shaved off ability to get to Industrial Auto (assuming directed research on)

2. Once Industrial Auto is in hand next techs to get are beelines to SotHB as this now allows ability to upgrade crawlers to Synth-Trance and with energy by the buckets allows virtually every SP from there on in to be yours. You may have missed on or two along the way but at this point the rest should be yours assuming someone has scooped you on a tech.

At some point after I have built my SPs and rush bought my facilites only then do I normally switch into planned for pop boom and/or war.


Now for factions that it does not make sense to FM ie.( Dee can't, Yang shouildn't, Cha Cha shouldn't, etc.) obviously another approach is needed.
[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited November 29, 2000).]

[mark13]

Yep, quite simply, FM is handy because it cuts in half the amount of time it takes to get to the mid-game. Even once you get to EnvEco, forests will be producing 2-2-2, with crawlers jacking in the extra energy. At this point, depending on what size world you play on, tech should be at 4 turns at the very least. If you are worried about war, plasma/perimeter is enough to combat most AI forces, but for that extra security, I like to keep an impact/missile rover in handy.

Once you get to D:AP, you have two choices - to switch away from FM and roll the nearest faction, or continue building, and transcend by 2260. (hopefully) With all that extra energy coming in from FM, coupled with several TF/HFs....well, you do the maths.

The downside - police. If you are playing a drone-friendly faction (drones, PKs) this won't be a problem until size 3. Any other faction, though, and you will need a rec. commons before your base hits size two. However, you shouldn't have a problem rush-building them, with the obscene amount of energy coming in, and you can always limit the size of the base by churning out colony pods.

Once you hit size three, your bases should be working three forests - and getting 8 minerals per base for your trouble. Once you have the VW, you can afford to go to size 5, and with the amount of energy you are bringing in, 10% psych allocation is more than enough to quell any extra drones that will arise. Then, you are set up for life.

Mark13

[Enigma]

One thing about SE I haven't seen mentioned and I think is fairly important is pop booming for factions without the ability to run demo/green or have negative growth.

If you don't have SMACX ignore the following, it will not work in SMAC.

Morgan and Yang can not run planned and demo respectively, and therefore cannot achieve the +4 growth and that social engineering tables that- when combined with a children's creche can create a pop boom. So they need to take extra measures to achieve a pop boom- a golden age.

A golden age happens when a base is-
A. Over size 3
B. has no drones
C. half or more of the workers or talents
Once these conditions are met, a golden age begins.

The next turn after the golden age begins the base gets +2 growth and +1 economy.

The +2 golden age growth combined with the +2 growth from children's creche and democracy/planned will be enough for a pop boom!

I find that the easiest way to achieve a golden age at a few isolated bases that are ahead of your growth curve is to crawler in food and turn a bit less than half of that base's population into doctors/empaths. This approach also needs the HGP to be truly effective, otherwise it is almost impossible to get the necessary talents without a psych allocation.

When you want to pop boom on an empire wide level allocate 10-30% of your economy to psych. There is a cutoff on how much psych energy any base can use, 2* basesize. Facilities like treefarms, holo theaters, research hospitals, hybrid forests, and nanohospitals all add a bonus to psych. It takes 2 psych points to change a population point to the next level of happiness, the levels go from super drone to drone to citizen to talent.

Sven and Aki can also pop boom this way although they need to go through Dem/planned/creche/ AND golden age. This can be a pain... unless planned is part of your normal SE settings try to prepare all of your bases for a pop boom with the necessary facilities (control/hab complexes) and allocate a big chunk of energy to pop booming.

This method is not by any means easy. The earliest I have pop boomed with Morgan was about year 70- that is with complete isolation on my own small continent. Lal can pop boom the moment he gets the proper settings.

Still I think that pop booming like this can help Yang, Morgan, Sven and Aki compete with the faster growing factions...

[Garth Vader]

I now understand FM.

I am playing in a MP with me as Morgan against a friend as the Believers. He is usually a builder and I am a momentum player so we are trying this matchup to try and play different styles.

Anyway, I have the infinite luck to be alone on a continent and so I went FM. I was planning to switch back after I got wealth, but I was amazed at the energy coming in with +4 econ. I had thought that it was just the extra energy in the base square and that the +commerce only mattered if you had trade. Guess I was wrong.

The drone riots at size 3 are a hassle, but at the moment since I have only 2 size 3 bases I don't care!

The downside of being alone on a continent is the inability to trade techs, oh well.

[Velociryx]

Welcome to the Marketeer's Club, Garth....ain't it cool?

-=Vel=-

[Sikander]

Ogie et al,

Regarding Free Market:

My problem with FM is that there is a narrow window in my growth paradigm for it. This is early on, before I pop boom and before I can really handle building a lot of facilities like Rec Commons. (I use a very heavy specialist approach, which severely limits the benefits of FM later on, as my average size 16 base would only receive 5 energy from FM.) How do you quell those Population 2 drones and run FM in the first few years?

My usual University game starts much like Vel's. I take Centauri Ecology first, and immediately crank out formers, then police garrisons (or sometimes another former if one of my first two bases has lots of minerals, using the free scout as my second cop). I beeline for crawlers, then SoTHB, then Restrictions Lifted, Clean, then Fusion. (Like Ogie does).

I would like to receive FM's energy before my pop boom stage (when I must necessarily run Planned). If I start building Rec Commons early, I have to give up on Recycling Tanks (at least in most of my bases) as well as getting a later start on my crawlers and early game SPs.

Once I begin to pop boom, it is too late for FM, as by the time I am finished (running Demo, Planned, Wealth) my society has converted to almost all specialists living in size 14 or 16 bases.

How do you do it Ogie? (btw, thanks for those Lal challenge saves, you really took off in a short period!)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Sik,

My use of FM depends on the faction I use.

Since you mention UoP, I've taken to the following approach

First freebie tech is normally Industrial base
then beeline to Industrial Auto then
Back to Centauri Ecology. This normally happens about 2115-2116 time frame.

During this time frame I allow Base 1 and 2 to make 2 scouts each, one of which stays home to defend the base and the second out to patrol and eventually be used as a garrison at bases 3 and 4. Base one and two then move onto almost strictly CP production. If my research happens fast enough I have the option for a former or crawler build by the time base 3 and 4 are in place. Since these have been prestocked with a garrison unit that allows two formers each at these sites or a crawler to be plopped out if a min special is about.

2116 is kind of a deciding point. Normally unless I popped a pod delivering energy I may or may not have enough energy to switch my SE choice (this is also one of the reason I forgo formers b/c if I do luck into some energy in the first few pods popped I want to switch to wealth ASAP and if I can switch at 2110-2111 all the better). As soon as I do I automatically go for wealth ASAP. The industry and extra econ help for the next phase.

Beeline then is to SotHB, rec tanks and rec commons are among the goals of this mini tech run. By the time you've aquired these techs by running wealth you should be in a decent energy position to make the FM switch. At this point be prepared as you will likely run into a drone riot. So assuming you've got those all important 2 nutrient spots associated with every base you can doctor the drone w/o loss of pop point. At that point, your growth slows to nill until you rush the rec commons and rec tank. However once that base has been rec commoned and tanked, you've got a mini juggernaut early on allowing a size 3 9 min production center, thats a crawler every three turns.

Most importantly tho' is that you rely heavily on the energy influx from econ +3 to keep ahead of the drone riot by rush builds of both tanks and commons. It's really that simple. Each new base founding goes to a rec commons or if the terrain is not favorable for pop growth a tank. Preferably a tank that gets rushed for 52 credits. Assuming thats a worker on a forest then you've got from turn 2 of the base existance(sp?) 4 mins. By turn three on of that base life your in a position to rush the commons and more often than not you are not in any where near population growth to size 2 at that point. 52 credits is not that bad at this point when your in FM/wealth mode and you normally can keep well ahead of the spending curve especially if you have crawlers aiding the bases.

Fairly soon though you'll pass the bearacracy warning and at that point you'll need either VW or HGP but fortunately you've got the energy where with all to build and upgrade the crawlers to get these in short order (assuming of course that you don't ethically have an issue with upgraded crawler cash ins).

If your fortunate enough to find an ogre and are by yourself(i.e. no one to use it on) I almost always disband these in favor of a build as by the time you go to use it later on inthe game its utility is very limited.

In the early game whilst you are still beelining to SotHB ( I neglect the IA run b/c I assume you won't make contact in that short time frame), I normally do not trade techs unless it is in the beeline path. I don't want anything slowing down my aquisition of rec commons or tanks.

If your interested I'll try a UoP start and do it both ways (Vels more traditional wealth then planned approach vs. a wealth then FM approach) and send you saves. It would be interesting just as an exercise as I am not sure which is the better approach myself.


Og

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Regarding use of wealth than FM or FM then FM/wealth vs. planned then wealth for other factions.

Morgan,

This has been outlined very well by Enigma and I really can't add much to it. His early strat of getting the tanks early adds much to Morgans otherwise hamstrung poor support rating.

Lal and Domai,

Much more flexibility b/c of talent and/or drone reduction. Size 2 bases are not a problem as a result. This means you have more flexibility in your energy expenditures to rush build and expansion.

Sven,

This one is tough b/c Sven gets hit with a ton of ineficency, I'll have to give him another spin.

Santi,

This one is also tough b/c without wealth the real extra energy kick isn't there,plus the industry penalty makes the rush builds a full 60 mins. Double ouch.

Angels,

Middle of the road as far as difficulty inmaking this approach work. Similar to UoP in that regard.

Yang - Don't even try it.