Domai-wow

[Misotu]

Well, the Morgan Challenge is quite a fun scenario and worth trying if you're into Morgan. From my angle, it's about the worst starting position I can imagine ... wrong faction ;-), poor access to the sea and right next door to the Caretakers, who go on the rampage almost immediately. There are some helpful landmarks around though.

Vi Vicdi has already swept through the scenario in an impressive manner, so he's given you a target to aim for if you're a Morgan man :-)

- Mis

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

With the possible exception of the progenitor factions Domai might possibly be the most powerful faction added in the SMACX adds.

His achilles heel is early tech. If he is caught before he has aquired early techs he is containable. As a human playing him your best bet is to beg, borrow, steal, ohh and pod pop any techs in the early game (no revelations here). On a huge map with mostly water (and no pirates) Domai can be difficult to play as he will be stuck having to develop his own techs due to little if any contact with the other factions and on Huge world settings techs are mighty expensive. By the time he has contacted the other factions he can be very far behind in the tech race.

I have been a huge advocate of Drone power since the beginning. His ability to quell drones makes the Demo/planned pop boom route even more powerful with realtively little unrest issues. Throw wealth into the equation and as everyone here says he is a juggernaut.

On a completely different tack, I always wondered why Domai is averse to Green. I know the manual says he is Industry minded and hence averse to Green economy but isn't his whole cause freedom for the workers?? That being said shouldn't he be more opposed to the rampant capitalism of Free Market or perhaps the lack of freedom going with Police State. Something doesn't quite seem to be aligned to Domai's true objectives here.

[Travathian]

Speaking of Domai, has anyone ever seen his special ability of cities switching sides when they are at unrest? I've never actually seen this in any SMAC game, though I do remember it happening a few times in CivII.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Trav,

In order for Domai to aquire a base in revolt the said base must be in Drone riot for at least two turns. That being said the AI governors do a half decent job of keeping its bases from getting into this trouble. If in the first turn a drone riot occurs by the second turn the AI takes corrective action usually by dedicating a number of doctors/empaths. All in all it seems like a pretty useless ability against the AI.

I even seem to remember some folks saying that probe actions to stir up unrest didn't work as the base in the beginning of the second turn was back out of drone riot.

[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited February 10, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited February 10, 2000).]

[Travathian]

What if it riots, and that same turn you probe to cause riots, will it last a second turn? Hmmmmmm, wish I wasnt at work to test this.

Example

Turn 1a Riots occur in AI base

Turn 1b I send in probe on my turn to hopefully increase this, will continuous probe team action increase number of unhappy citizens? Either that or sabotage rec commons and such.

Turn 2 Computer isnt able to make the base happy without removing all workers and starving the base. Hopefully I gain control.
[This message has been edited by Travathian (edited February 10, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Travathian (edited February 10, 2000).]

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Trav,

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying and vice versa so let me lay out an example.

Turn 1a - Your turn. You notice Enemy faction base drone riots.

Turn 1b - Enemy faction action phase. Enemy faction rectifies situation by adjusting empaths/doctors.

Turn 2a - Enemy faction base now out of drone riot. You probe to put base back into riot.

Turn 2b - Enemy re-adjusts doctors/empaths again putting base out of drone riot situation for turns 3 and greater.

By having that brief instance of time (i.e. turn 2a) out of drone riot the criteria for revolt wasn't met (2 consecutive turns of drone riot). At least this is how I beleive it works.

[Travathian]

Is there a range limit on this? Or potentially any city which riots for 2 turns becomes yours.

Frankly I think this ability kinda sucks. I'd rather make it when a city is liberated, you dont suffer that penalty with the extra drone for so many years when capturing a base. Think about it, the workers of the city rejoice at being free now! =)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Trav,

Typically Ai will go to any lenght to quell the riots including starving the base. So as a result even if you hyper incite the base in question the Ai normally handles it.

[Misotu]

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe on 02-10-2000 02:05 PM On a completely different tack, I always wondered why Domai is averse to Green. I know the manual says he is Industry minded and hence averse to Green economy but isn't his whole cause freedom for the workers?? That being said shouldn't he be more opposed to the rampant capitalism of Free Market or perhaps the lack of freedom going with Police State. Something doesn't quite seem to be aligned to Domai's true objectives here.

Well, the Drones' aversion to Green agrees completely with my real life experience. Worker parties have jobs - not the environment - as their main priority. I have seen them argue for some unspeakable developments in green belt and areas of natural beauty, because they want the jobs the development will provide.

I agree that free market should definitely be the Drones #1 enemy from the point of view of workers' rights/job security.

Police state shouldn't go down too well with them either. Too right wing.

cheers
- Mis

[Vi Vicdi]

"Damn the Spotted Owls. Jobs come first!"

-- Foreman Domai, if he were American

[eisduotres]

This thread now consists of two sub-threads concerning Drones and Morgan (BTW a comparative analysis of these two archtypical builder factions - who really should be archenemies in game storyline terms - from different playstyle perspectives would be interesting).

1) Yes there is no ideological storyline reason why the Drones should be anti-Green. Remember that workers are most exposed to the environmental hazards of industry. They would have a vital practical interest - and not simply an ideological interest as in the case of Gaia and Cha Dawn - in clean, green industry, if only to live longer lives. And labor-power IS an force of nature and, therefore, part of the ecology. It's simply the sentient part of nature - like the fungus (hint, hint).

HOWEVER, as has been amply noted here, the Drones can be powerful faction, which is why they are one of my favorites. Just imagine if they could go Green - they could be practically invulnerble. So I believe this is more a game-balance issue than that of storyline. The problem is, if you banned Free Market, the Drones would only have Planned as a choice.

2) It is the inverse of Morgan - if you banned Green (game story logical), they'd be stuck with only Free Market as a choice. It's really a game limitation.

Speaking of Morgan (Miutso, excuse the misspelling), you should try this faction "Morg" style, i.e., Morgan + Borg. Go Free Market/Wealth ASAP, after building HGP. Just colony pod like crazy, methodically building your bases 3 squares apart in all directions. Your ever-advancing, ever-engulfing base frontier will become your chief offensive weapon!

Go all out to build HGP - this is an early key to the strategy. Note that Wealth is one of the earliest Values SE choices, making this viable early-game. With Morgan/FM/Wealth, each *base square itself* will produce 6-8 energy from the get-go (depends on Child's Creche, etc). Tons of low pop bases = tons of energy. Think of each colony pod as a potential energy borehole!

This largely nullifies some severe limitations specific to Morgan/FM:
1) the low max pop limit - who cares?
2) FM pacifism - much less a factor with low pop bases and HGP, at least until about third bureaucracy/efficiency threshold.

And, if you become bored with ICS/Borg in midgame, you'll have a huge base to build from woth an ideal builder faction!

[Ned]

Folks, I just completed my first game as Domai. I had no difficulty at all on acquiring Tech because I kept Domai in FreeMarket the whole game. I still won world conquest the quickest I ever have - 2269.

Just an aside, if one gets Ascetic Virtues, which I believe, gives +1 Police, and if later one builds Brood Pits, which give + 2 Police, one can wage war with FreeMarket without creating drones.

What surpised me, though, is that I had no more trouble with ecology and Fungus than I would if I were running +3 Planet. What I did have a problem with is dealing with mind worms, etc. The -3 Planet really hurts.

All-in-all, though, Domai is great!

Ned

[Travathian]

Well, I've gotten lucky on my latest game. Lal, CC, Hackers and the University all on my continent, which includes the jungle, uranium fields, and the garland crater (with the manifold nexus and geothermal shallows right off shore).

Hackers and CC wouldnt submit so they got squashed, lal and the university submitted, amd are getting techs for me. I have built all SPs except the exchange. Given how good my industry is, I am building cities like crazy, and have all of the base facilities in record time.

So, the debate is, should I give away some of these cities to the University to help them learn tech faster while I just build an army and go teach Miriam who's boss?

The only thing I have going against me is no research (-40%) and too many base facilities and not enough money to afford them due to low efficiency (-40%). But that 30% industry bonus is absolutely disgusting when I can build anything anytime I want.

[Misotu]

Eisduotres, thanks for your post which was interesting. I can see how this strategy would work, so I'll give Morgan another try on this basis.

I'd have thought, though, that Morgan really needs some space and time to expand before getting into a fight? Assuming you're at war in the early game, and in the worst case with a technically more advanced Alien faction, aren't the morale penalties for Wealth crippling? In which case, how would you play the faction when you're forced to mobilise right away? As far as I could tell, both wealth and FM were out of the question and the energy bonus really doesn't help much when you only have a few cities. You can't expand, because you a)can't produce pods rather than military units and b) can't defend a sprawl. I guess I'm still missing something ...

Going back to the Drone/Green thing for a moment, I hear what you say but I think it unrepresentative of the whole picture. Ideologically, workers are anti-green instinctively - as a long-standing member of a traditional workers' party, I was exposed to this big-time :-)

It works like this:
You are correct in saying that workers are aware that certain environmental hazards reduce longevity. This is seen as undesirable and so they tend to be opposed to lax controls on substances like asbestos, for example. This is not, however, concern for the environment but is simply a health and safety *at work* issue.

In any event, these are the extreme cases. Most pollution is lower level and less lethal in the short to medium term, so it barely registers on their radar.

The single, biggest priority of the workers' party is the Right to Work. Their view is that a civilised society provides employment opportunies for all of its members. Without employment, all kinds of social horrors result. If the employment happens to be ecologically-friendly, then great. But if it's a choice between more or fewer jobs, I *know* where their vote will go. And why not? Let the monied middle-classes worry about the owls (LOL Vi) :-)

Clean industry is generally much more expensive than a dirtier version. Higher overheads means more expensive products, means you are less competitive, means fewer sales. Fewer sales means manufacturing output has to be reduced which means fewer jobs and so ... workers will rarely argue for adoption - particularly unilateral adoption - of cleaner industrial practices, because they know it destroys jobs.

It's true that nowadays, there is more interest in cleaner industry, but only on the basis that these standards are enforced across the industry. Realistically, that means international enforcement, which is nigh-on impossible to achieve.

The net result, if green policies are pursued regardless, is that large corporations tend to set up their plants in countries where industry is less regulated. The workers in these countries are glad of the jobs, and don't (surprise, surprise) seem terribly worried about pollution - and so it goes on. Remember Bhopal?

There are exceptions of course, and it's now getting to the point where it's cost-effective to be greener in some instances, but it's a slow process and old prejudices remain.

I don't really see labour power as a force of nature, though it's certainly a poetic concept ;-) Post-industrial revolution, an inherent conflict has existed between industrial and environmental priorities.

Put simplistically, workers don't much like tree huggers, and tree huggers don't really care about workers. So I guess, in the end, workers would rather have Planned (full employment, job stability), then Free Market (many jobs, rotten work environment) then Green (fewer jobs, better working environment). So I would say that the faction profile for the Drones makes perfect sense given the SE choices available.

- Mis

[Blunderdog]

Hi gang! Boy, the Drones sure kick butt!