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**Minute Mirage** · November 14, 2003, 09:21

Here are the rest of the saves:

Attached Files

mm builder(2170, 2180, 2190, 2195, 2200, 2205).zip (451.8 KB, 83 views)

**Archaic** · November 14, 2003, 09:44

Hmmmm.....I think I could beat you there, with the changes in my playing style over the past few months, but it'll be a while until I can test that to find out. I believe I was more than just a little sloppy with my game towards the end turns, and then there's the fact that I never once put stockpile energy in my build queues, which would make a lot of difference.

Though as you've noted elsewhere, this game isn't really all that good for comparisons, with there being so many variables that we can't control. Namely, the unity pods. There's always going to be some variables that we can't control (The actions of AI factions especially), but there's no acceptable way we can really take those out (Given that most of the quick transcend methods we use depend on that commerce), is there?

**Minute Mirage** · November 14, 2003, 10:13

Originally posted by Archaic
Hmmmm.....I think I could beat you there, with the changes in my playing style over the past few months, but it'll be a while until I can test that to find out. I believe I was more than just a little sloppy with my game towards the end turns, and then there's the fact that I never once put stockpile energy in my build queues, which would make a lot of difference.

I didn't use any stockpile energy in my queues either, so we're even on that account. I agree that using the bug would certainly make a big difference, though.

Originally posted by Archaic
Though as you've noted elsewhere, this game isn't really all that good for comparisons, with there being so many variables that we can't control. Namely, the unity pods. There's always going to be some variables that we can't control (The actions of AI factions especially), but there's no acceptable way we can really take those out (Given that most of the quick transcend methods we use depend on that commerce), is there?

It's true that the pods can make a huge difference, especially the AAs. If I'll play another comparison game, it'll certainly have to be without pods. As far as commerce is concerned, it played a much smaller part in my game than yours. I only ever pacted with Morgan and got treaties with Lal and Yang. I didn't get the global trade pact passed and Miriam actually tried to attack me. Of course, the AIs also play a large part in tech trades and probing. I would be more interested in playing a game with no tech trades with the AI or stealing techs from the AI.

**Archaic** · November 14, 2003, 18:49

Originally posted by Minute Mirage
It's true that the pods can make a huge difference, especially the AAs. If I'll play another comparison game, it'll certainly have to be without pods.

Yes, I'll have to have another go at that no pods one on the vets map sometime soon. You're right that the AA's make a lot of difference. I got virtually none during my builder game.

Originally posted by Minute Mirage
As far as commerce is concerned, it played a much smaller part in my game than yours. I only ever pacted with Morgan and got treaties with Lal and Yang. I didn't get the global trade pact passed and Miriam actually tried to attack me. Of course, the AIs also play a large part in tech trades and probing. I would be more interested in playing a game with no tech trades with the AI or stealing techs from the AI.

That surprises me to be honest. I would've thought you'd be making more of an effort to be close to the AI. The commerce windfall makes a lot of difference, as does the ability to trade with the AI so you can keep up to speed while staying on your beeline.

**Minute Mirage** · November 14, 2003, 19:23

Originally posted by Archaic

Yes, I'll have to have another go at that no pods one on the vets map sometime soon. You're right that the AA's make a lot of difference. I got virtually none during my builder game.

I posted a new thread about a podless game here. I'm actually not quite thrilled with playing a game on the Veterans for a few reasons. The map has a bit too much resources for a generic test game, and it was specifically created for 4 human players. Besides, I don't want to give away any possible strategies for FAMH...

Originally posted by Archaic
That surprises me to be honest. I would've thought you'd be making more of an effort to be close to the AI. The commerce windfall makes a lot of difference, as does the ability to trade with the AI so you can keep up to speed while staying on your beeline.

How did you manage to keep the little buggers friendly? When I met them after building the Empath Guild I was already way ahead of them in the rankings and they weren't none too pleased with me. I guess I should have showered them with gifts when I first contacted them, but I don't know how long it would have lasted. In the end game, the only ones who would answer my call were Morgan and Lal. Besides, you had quite a bit of luck getting Miriam into a submissive and thus getting the trade pact passed.

**Archaic** · November 14, 2003, 21:14

Showering with gifts mainly, though I had the advantage of meeting many of them early, before I was in SE that would piss them off, and I just wouldn't contact them much after that, so they wouldn't be as likely to break off the treaty or pact.

**Minute Mirage** · November 14, 2003, 21:18

Originally posted by Archaic
Showering with gifts mainly, though I had the advantage of meeting many of them early, before I was in SE that would piss them off, and I just wouldn't contact them much after that, so they wouldn't be as likely to break off the treaty or pact.

By the way, how did you meet them? Did you get a comm link from a pod?

**Archaic** · November 14, 2003, 21:28

IIRC, I got Morgan and Yang from pods, I met Miriam, and the other factions I got from AI factions who'd met them (Lal from Morgan, the Gaians from Miriam, and I can't remember who gave me the Spartans).

**ErikM** · November 18, 2003, 12:56

I've also got tempted to give it a try... Transcended in 2196.

Benchmarks:
2103 - Morgan's comm link from pod; pact with Morgan

2125 - IA (deviated from the standard beeline to get BioGen and SocPsi. Imho, BioGen is more useful very early in the game since my bases are still building colony pods, not crawlers. Zak is fast enough to pick up BioGen and still get IA fast enough).
Switched to Simple/Planned/Wealth

2133 - PTS. Material pod towards SC/2t/2 helped.
Got Yang's frequency from pod. Morgan gave me Lal. Met Miriam and she gave me Dee. Which resulted in

2136 - Got elected Governor.

Late 30-s-early 40s - Used Planned/Wealth superior industry rating to finish remaining early SPs, rushed creches and pop-boomed to size 5-6 wherever feasible.

2147 - 1st Stage boom done; running Dem/FM/Wealth

2152 - EnvEcon, building tree farms, boom at 20% psych

2164 - Global Trade Pact passes; hybrid forests, boom to 16 now at 10% psych and using specialists. Cashed in my artifacts to get (mostly) fusion beeline techs.

2174 - Dem/FM/Knowledge. Morgan has decided to cancel our pact and I pacted with Yang of all people who could not resist an offer of Nonlinear Math

70s and beyond - nothing much to say really... Building stuff and drilling remaining boreholes. Paid $900 to Morgan to reinstate our pact. Later borrowed most of it from him. Sold techs to anyone whenever I was sort on cash.

2194 - Voice
2195 - Ascent
2196 - Game.

It must be possible to shave off another 5-10 years from this time. Prior to 60s I thought I have played to the best of my abilities but afterwards I made several mistakes:

(i) Probably most importantly, I have decided to build two science cities instead of SSC. The logic being to avoid wasting of labs due to truncation. So I've built ME and SuperCollider in Pulkovo and ToE/Network Backbone in University base. On standard maps (which I usually play) it works better but on huge maps techs are more expensive and neither base generated quite enough tech prior to nanohospitals & stuff. So SSC is probably better for huge maps.

(ii) I could not avoid researching unneeded techs since I don't really have any beelines after MMI/Fusion

(iii) I contemplated going on the offensive after MMI to get Miriam (and maybe Dee) as submissives to maximize trade income but decided against it due to PIA factor. Probably a mistake since late game trade income is huge.

But of course good and bad things have a tendency to even out in SMAC. I was very lucky to get all comm links without the Empath Guild and early Governorship is imho a key to fast transcedence.

Cheers,
-- ErikM

**ErikM** · November 18, 2003, 12:57

Oops, forgot to attach saves:

Attached Files

provost.zip (352.1 KB, 107 views)

**Minute Mirage** · November 18, 2003, 14:04

First off, congratulations on a great game, I don't think I can reach a similar achievement on this map.

I have to say that you were very, very lucky with the pods in the game. In 2106, you had gotten Morgan's comm link and pacted with him. Not only that, but you also had gotten a money pop for the 41 credits, and you had two new free units -- a scout rover and a unity foil. Like you said, you were also able to get everyone's comm links very early, before you had grown big enough for everyone to hate. This meant that you had at least a treaty with everyone, which combined with the global trade pact netted you a lot of energy. You seemed to be quite lucky with the Alien Artifacts too, by 2136 you had 7 of them which is quite amazing.

What I would be really interested in knowing is how you managed to complete the PTS, VW and HGP and still have eight crawlers left over as well as 421 credits by 2136. You did mention that one material pop you got but that only accounts for 8 mineral rows out of 80. I would be very interested to see some more saves from this period if you them available.

You also mentioned that you favour Biogenetics in the early game and I noticed that you had RCs in each base by 2136. Do you rush them as the first thing in each base and how do you get the cash for them? Btw, the reason I go for IA ASAP is that Wealth combined with FM makes a lot of money in the early game.

Originally posted by ErikM

(ii) I could not avoid researching unneeded techs since I don't really have any beelines after MMI/Fusion

You can avoid the useless techs pretty well since you can figure out what techs are going to be offered at any time. Of course, AAs can make things difficult, but it's possible to avoid Frictionless Surfaces for a long time if you plan research beforehand.

Originally posted by ErikM
(iii) I contemplated going on the offensive after MMI to get Miriam (and maybe Dee) as submissives to maximize trade income but decided against it due to PIA factor. Probably a mistake since late game trade income is huge.

I figured this would have been against the spirit of the game, although this was never a challenge game with formal rules. I think most people played a pure builder game.

Originally posted by ErikM
But of course good and bad things have a tendency to even out in SMAC. I was very lucky to get all comm links without the Empath Guild and early Governorship is imho a key to fast transcedence.

Well, yes and no. While the game has measures in place to equalize players (higher tech costs for the leader, etc.), an advantage at the starter is only going to bigger in the mid- and lategame unless the player screws up.

By the way, would you be interested in playing a comparison game, where luck is minimized and the different playing styles could better be compared? I posted a thread about it here., but unfortunately the idea hasn't gotten a lot of interest.

**Lazerus** · November 18, 2003, 15:56

why don't you just be blunt and ask it mirage, did you use multiple reloads on the pods ?

**ErikM** · November 18, 2003, 16:18

Originally posted by Minute Mirage
I have to say that you were very, very lucky with the pods in the game. In 2106, you had gotten Morgan's comm link and pacted with him. Not only that, but you also had gotten a money pop for the 41 credits, and you had two new free units -- a scout rover and a unity foil.

Yes, Morgan's link and a unity foil so early were exceptionally lucky. 41 ECs came from selling Planetary Networks to Morgan for 25 Ecs and 16ECs my own.

What I would be really interested in knowing is how you managed to complete the PTS, VW and HGP and still have eight crawlers left over as well as 421 credits by 2136. You did mention that one material pop you got but that only accounts for 8 mineral rows out of 80. I would be very interested to see some more saves from this period if you them available.

That's SC-2t-2 crawler - on Rover Chassis - which is 15 rows. [Later on SC-3r-2 is 20 rows; enough for WP/ME/CN/HGP] Generally I designed the most expensive Crawler Prototype I can and whenever I was about to pop a pod I switched production at the closest base to this ueber-crawler.

If you pop a pod at deep waters, only few outcomes are possible:
(a) sonar pod - neutral
(b) money/foil/AA -good
(c) material pod - won't happen if the closest base works on a colony pod and it is size 1 or if a base works on a secret project. Otherwise doesn't matter whether your base is working on Recycling tanks or some ridiculuosly expensive prototype.
(d) IoD
Thus, payoffs from pods are optimized when the closest base is set to work on the most expensive unit you can build. [Prior to IA one can design armored rover formers/ probe teams or such like.] One can use this knowledge to minimize wasted minerals by delaying pod-popping until your closest base just starts working on a new project.

I did not do a statistical analysis of all this, but it seems to me that chances of getting a material pod during first 40-50 years are 1:3 or better. It is the most likely of the remaining good/neutral alternatives.

To fight IoDs: prior to 2115 it is safe to pop pods since natives are weak; after SotHB upgrade all transports to trance; and eventually to 3r armor. Incidentally, 3r trance transport is cheaper than unarmored trance transport (although it is more expensive to upgrade to it). Period from 2115 and before trance transports is generally unsafe and it is better to avoid popping especially in fungus. I've lost one of my transports on the way to Miriam by not being patient but I cannot really complain. [Of course, I have studied Sikander's/Archaic's/your game prior to playing and of course I knew where everybody are which is quite valuable].

It's borderline cheating I guess but super-crawlers is the best outcome that can come out of pods and since the time limit in fast transcedence games is so tight one has to optimize everything possible in the early game including pod pops.

So I completed PTS using one of these 15 rows crawlers and I think I have popped another one later on which I used towards WP. Remaining rows came from upgrading some of my SCs to SC-2t-1 which is 8 rows (5extra rows over normal SC) for 90ec which is the best bung for the buck in the early game.

Money partially came from pods, and partially from selling all my techs to pretty much everyone I met. AI (except Miriam) will buy techs for 25ecs even if they don't have the money

so the really lucky part was actually finding these comm links early enough. Not only it allowed me to make quick $$$ from selling multiple techs to everyone, but also I could avoid building EG and even researching EG-enabling tech (traded with Dee for it eventually).

You also mentioned that you favour Biogenetics in the early game and I noticed that you had RCs in each base by 2136. Do you rush them as the first thing in each base and how do you get the cash for them? Btw, the reason I go for IA ASAP is that Wealth combined with FM makes a lot of money in the early game.

Yes, I rush RTs whenever money permit as a first build. On this map, there are plenty of monoliths and river squares so the need for early formers is lower.
Also, I favor Planned/Wealth early on. Running FM early when you don't have much of a commerce income and when your bases are working monoliths (and thus do not benefit as much from +1 energy) is not all that great. You'll get something like 14ec/turn instead of 8-9 ec/turn. And you have to worry about size two bases. Running planned/wealth gives a discount on rush builds (due to lower mineral count) and a faster growth which is more than enough to offset FM superior energy output at this stage at the game. Of course, planned means slower research but at this stage I do not overly worry about my tech speed since I am researching techs that I can potentially trade from others.

Why Biogenetics is better than IA early on: while it is possible to get IA by 2113 (a) my bases are still producing colony pods and not crawlers (b) wealth will give me +1economy while recycling tanks give +1/+1/+1 effectively increasing all FOPs. Again, you can pop a material pod in a base square radius which will force an instant completion of RTs - so much the merrier.

Of course it only quite works if you can actually rush these RTs and only with fast researchers since for factions like Spartans reserching BioGen will delay IA too much. But Zak (and Morgan on a good start) can get BioGen and still get IA early enough.

You can avoid the useless techs pretty well since you can figure out what techs are going to be offered at any time. Of course, AAs can make things difficult, but it's possible to avoid Frictionless Surfaces for a long time if you plan research beforehand.

This is true without any doubt - it is just that the period from fusion to transcedence is so short (especially on smaller maps that I usually play) I never really tried to figure out optimal research sequence.

I figured this would have been against the spirit of the game, although this was never a challenge game with formal rules. I think most people played a pure builder game.

I play builder too - however on smaller maps one can conquer AI factions using like 3 choppers and 2 drop garrisons to force a submissive pact very fast. I would then give them back all their bases simply to maximize trade income. Heck, sometimes I'll build a base and gift it to a submissive so as to even out the commerce income.

By the way, would you be interested in playing a comparison game, where luck is minimized and the different playing styles could better be compared?

Yes in general, just I am a bit short on time at the moment. However, I don't think it's completely *even* builder map. Playing without pods will result in (ie) Dee being much weaker than Zak or Morgan while I think she is quite good in general due to superior pod-popping capability. Placing factions so far away from each other means very late contact and little trade income, which will probably make Sikander-style all-specialist approach superior. You may have noticed that I generally prefer workers rather than specialists since commerce bonus a base gets depends solely on its raw energy output, to which specialists contribute nothing at all. My best bases in 2196 game did not use any specialist at all and you can check manually converting them to transcendi just how much lab output you *lose* due to lower raw energy output. Because of these considers I do not pack my bases *too* tightly. And generally I just don't believe in a fixed placement approach since imho an ability to place a base on a river out of "grid" and get an extra +1 energy for first 50 years is better than an ability to drill an extra borehole 20 turns prior to transcedence.

So in general yes, I am interested to match skills on a fair ground, I just doubt that it is possible to design completely fair conditions.

**ErikM** · November 18, 2003, 16:24

Originally posted by Lazerus
why don't you just be blunt and ask it mirage, did you use multiple reloads on the pods ?

I've restarted the game after getting a fungal bloom in 2105 or something

Otherwise, no.

Lazerus, if you believe that 2196 on a huge map is exceptionally easy with reloads please go ahead and try it

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My first victory on a huge map -- transcended in 2208

My first victory on a huge map -- transcended in 2208

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