Tech Trading vs. Probe Rape vs. Do Your Own Research

[Grail Quest]

I'm ahead in the tech race, having run FM to generate cash. Have a number of Alien Artifacts, and am vigorously building bases and Network Nodes.

I have just finished the Empath Guild, so I can now contact everyone. Half of them are pissed at me (why? we've only just met) and are ready to declare Vendetta, half of them grudgingly agree to a Treaty.

Initially I wanted to give a base to the University and grab tech from them, but I can only get at most 2 techs that I might be forced to get before I get set up to probe anyway.

If I keep using my Artifacts, I'll be duplicating tech that the other factions have (I researched depth instead of breadth in preparation for the probe rape and now my research avenues are very limited).

Should I blow my artifacts and force the other factions to do their own research, or trade with them? They are offering level 1-2 techs for my level 2-3 techs.

I think I have the option to do the Planetary Datalinks. Is that limited to one tech?

[CEO Aaron]

Typically I prefer to use probe-teams to steal all the techs I can before going on a AA-cashing spree. That being said, I'll also trade tech with any faction I can, always trying to start out (when I'll have more techs to trade) with factions I'm confident I can stay friendly with. The reason? Trading is free, and generates goodwill with the factions I trade with, and once goodwill is established, I can look forward to many lucrative turns of trade income.

Planetary Datalinks requires that 3 other factions get a tech before you get it from the datalinks, so the odds are against you getting any more than a handfull.

[UnityScoutChopper]

What the CEO said.

Because the AI's are so clueless at generating energy, and thus at researching, and just as importantly because they are so clueless about the importance of tech trading, I don't find the Datalinks all that useful. On the other hand, a weakness of mine is that I often restart if I get a crappy start position; the Datalinks could be a nice balancer in such games, if you manage to get all the way to Cyberethics before falling hopelessly behind in the tech race (leading to someone else nabbing it, as it's quite popular with the AIs). On the other other hand, if you play your cards right, trade will quickly get you most of what the Datalinks would quickly get you (most importantly the secret project techs, which are hard to get through trade before their associated projects are built), and some of what it won't (techs researched by one faction much earlier than others).

My advice:
- use your artifacts to either
a) build the most important early SP's, if they're not grabbed yet (priority: WP/HGP - opinions on which is better are divided, with WP being somewhat more popular, try of course to grab both; VW - better than HGP but more expensive and of course having both is even better; PTS - opinions are divided but personally I'd call it a "big-ticket" SP)

or

b) wait until you've caught up in the discovered-techs field, then use 'em.

4X games like SMAC are about small investments/returns growing to medium, big, and eventually humungous, and this choice is no exception. An artifact is worth 50 minerals towards an SP (and a free spy decoder if you send it to Kellogg's), which in at the very start means ~20 empire-turns' worth of minerals (i.e. your whole empire's mineral output for 20 turns, IF your empire's production stayed at 2-3 minerals on turns 1-21, so in fact ~15 is a more realistic estimate), and may likely be the deciding factor in getting an SP. 50 turns of astute play later, it may not even represent one empire-turn of minerals. Also, you will have access to supply crawlers, which will overcome the need to build in a single base. Meanwhile, with AAs cashed for tech, the equation is at first sight: early cashing means more empire-turns' worth of science output than later. However, they represent a greater absolute number of science points (only really important if you can run a paradigm economy, though) and, more importantly, as you and CEO have noted, AA's cashed for something you can easily get without one is a waste of an AA. So the equation is actually: they are much more powerful once you are in or near the tech lead.

With that in mind, weigh your decision based on the questions:
- Am I a) decisively behind, b) in the middle of the pack, or c) miles ahead in the SP race? Situation b) is where AAs for SPs are most useful.
- Am I close to Industrial Automation? If not, then a) get your butt on over to it, and b) in the meantime, AAs for SPs will be more powerful.
- Am I a) decisively behind, b) in the middle of the pack, or c) miles ahead in the tech race? Situation b) is where AAs for techs is least useful. Situation c) is where they are most useful.

Because I like to play huge and occasionally large maps, and because I prefer eggshell empires that sacrifice defense for economy, I'm not much of a probe-raper, and instead trade for most and VERY carefully choose some enemies from which to... acquire... the rest. It's true, though, that it's very difficult to obtain techs enabling currently-unbuilt SPs without probes. Generally to do so, you need to have acquired, due to the random number generator or astute diplomacy, a very good good attitude with a partner, and then they will sometimes be so generous. Another alternative is to flaunt a huge military. Even if you don't bully techs outright, it seems to improve their willingness to trade "sensitive" techs.

A couple last points:

I have just finished the Empath Guild, so I can now contact everyone. Half of them are pissed at me (why? we've only just met) and are ready to declare Vendetta, half of them grudgingly agree to a Treaty.

The most important thing is to understand that there is ALMOST NO SUCH THING as a tech too sensitive to give up for peace. Giving the enemy, say, impact technology for peace gives you an impact-enabled, but temporarily peaceful neighbor. Denying it gives you a laser-enabled, hell-bent-for-war neighbor. (...and since the AI loves military techs, it may soon acquire impact tech anyway, and the AI is a warmonger even when at peace and often can only BENEFIT from actually using its overbuilt military, and on transcend it builds a hell of a lot of those troops, be they impact or laser, REALLY fast, quickly becoming a threat.) Generally, the former will hurt your position less.

Should I blow my artifacts and force the other factions to do their own research, or trade with them? They are offering level 1-2 techs for my level 2-3 techs.

Despite its demandingness, the AI doesn't know how to trade its way out a paper bag. Trade e.g. your level-3 tech for a level-2 tech from each neighbor, and you still come out ahead. Also keep in mind that besides tech-for-tech, you can use money-for-tech, and the offers are often quite good.

Also keep in mind that the AI's don't really know how to USE most techs to their full potential. This goes double for non-military techs--take a look at AI territory and you'll find it's badly terraformed, under-terraformed, and completely uncrawled (no supply crawlers), and that the cities lack infrastructure. So for the AI to get more USE from a trade than you are, you'd have to trade level 4 vs. level 2 or so for military techs, and level 5 vs. level 2 or so for non-military techs.

------

OK, let's wrap up this rambling. My most concrete advice without seeing a SAV:
- use your AA's for SP's if they can get you one you'd otherwise have to fight for, or if getting the SP x turns earlier is really powerful (e.g. the HGP on Transcend level if you're not at or neear the second bureaucracy warning yet)
- end those vendettas at any cost except an insane amount of money or declaring war another faction (hurts your rep IIRC)
- trade for what you can
- if you no longer have any enemies, find a faction that is probable but that can't really hurt you and demand that they leave your territory (even if they're not on it) in hopes of inciting a war
- probe-rape them
- cash the AA's if you judged them not useful for SPs.

USC

[Grail Quest]

Wow... thanks for the detailed analysis.

When in Civ3 or AC, I've always tried to refuse tech trading because I'm often far ahead. In Civ3, where all but suicidally aggressive civs (like the Zulu) quietly build under your radar when you are powerful don't even want to talk to you, this works and I can generally concentrate on builder strategy and stay ahead of the tech race.

In AC, being ahead in anyway seems to stir up trouble, and hence it seemed even more important to keep war techs out of the hands of the enemy, so that they never haven't even gotten to Doctrine:Air Power by the time you are in the middle of the tech tree and are sporting choppers and possibly hovertanks.
I had never thought of appeasing their tech demands to avoid annoying wars since the enemy becomes angry at me so quickly.

[UnityScoutChopper]

You're right about being ahead stirring up trouble in AC; there's an attitude penalty for it. (There is in all the Civs too.)

In Civ3 on the higher levels, it's impossible to get far ahead before the mid-midgame. In AC, even on Transcend, it's quite possible as early as the late early game, but if I am slightly ahead, I will still trade, as this actually tends to put me even farther ahead.

Remember: you both gain techs, but only YOU really know what to do with them. With the occasional exception, like D:AP, but there are exceptions to that exception too.

Appeasement:

I'm not saying caving in to tech demands is foolproof; sometimes they really will sneak attack anyway. But much of the time, appeasement is a bitter pill you can be really foolish not to swallow. "No techs for yo--whoops, I'm dead!"

USC

[CEO Aaron]

In practice, the only tech I always deny the AI is Air Power and _ARMOR_. Why? Because with good tactics, a missile rover is no more dangerous than a laser rover. Better armor, on the other hand, will make your life hell with tougher AAA defenders in ever base you need to conquer.

[timotheus4]

Getting the Planetary Datalinks is vital to winning, at least in my cases. Especially if I'm playing as Miriam. I generally try to get to Cyberethics as fast as possible (Social Psych, DocMobile, DocLoyal, EthCalc, IntInteg, and possibly one or two more.) It ensure that you are at least at technological parity with at least three other factions. On the other hand, as the University, someone else getting the datalinks can be quite dangerous.

[Urban Legend]

Grail, you are talking about a Trans difficulty game correct?

[Grail Quest]

Originally posted by Urban Legend
Grail, you are talking about a Trans difficulty game correct?

Ha ha ha! Of course not.
I only play on Talent (and heck, with Civ, I wimp out and choose Chieftain level).
Makes for more relaxing games, IMO, than a desperate race with the AI for SPs in the early game--and they get something like a +2 or +3 Industry boost, don't they?

Sorry--not everyone who posts here is an AC guru, 'eh?

*

Anyway, I've restarted to try two strategies:
(a) tighter base placement (2 tiles between bases on the short side, 4 tiles between bases on the long side) for accelerated colonization.

(b) researching depth and ignoring Conquer techs, which the AI, no matter what their faction, seems to like. For example, everyone's got Applied Physics.

Coordinating it with the Empath Guild and a sacrificial base (named "Lamb") for probing, I managed to get 4 techs from the University, and 3 probes to Elite level.

Basically, I let the University research the techs popular with the AI, while I concentrated on key techs and going for depth (after lifting resource limits, I normally go for either Fusion Power or Air Power).

I made the mistake of taking the base back at a mere 17cr and giving it to the Believers to get a tech, but it cost me 175 to take it back (after inciting Drone riots three times for each of three consecutive turns, the price went down only 5cr and the 1-pop base never rioted) and the University is ignoring my comms (even though I framed the Spartans every time), so I can't give it back to steal Optical Computers from them.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by UnityScoutChopper

In Civ3 on the higher levels, it's impossible to get far ahead before the mid-midgame. In AC, even on Transcend, it's quite possible as early as the late early game

What's your definition of late early game? It's quite possible to be three times as powerful in the powergraphs as the second AI at the 2130's or 2140's by building the PTS.

[Snowflake]

A question about probe raping/tech stealing is that if you've been coordinating research with another faction so you skip some techs to keep your research cost down, when you steal tech normally what you get is the ones that you don't need. Any opinions on whether tech stealing is still useful in this situation?

[Chaos Theory]

Yes, but you need to pick the tech you steal. This of course decreases the success rate of probing, but it can be worthwhile.

[Snowflake]

Oh I wasn't aware you can actually pick which tech you want. How do you do it?

[Mongoose]

It's an option in the dialogue box when conducting the probe operation.

[Flubber]

Just curious but will this option show up if you do not have your victim infiltrated and if so, could you see the list of techs and then decide not to probe at all ??

Hmm I may have to test this out . ..