Growth/Industy/Tech vs. World Size/Difficulty

[Bblue]

I've seen some people post here recently about what bonuses the AI and the player get depending on what size world they play on (mostly in regards to what is the hardest map). This sorta peeked my intrest and I had some spare time and here are the results:

RESEARCH
The research required to reach the first tech (which is also the base multiplier for all future techs) is determined primarlily* by map size.

The energy required to reach the first tech for BOTH the human player and the AI is as follows:

Tiny Map 8
Small Map 11
Standard Map 14
Large Map 15
Huge Map 22
Custom Map SMAC adjusts it approprietly.

*on citizen level only the player uses the following numbers instead (the AI uses the numbers above)

Tiny Map 7
Small Map 10
Standard Map 13
Large Map 14
Huge Map 20
Custom Map opps, forgot about this one, but is probably close to a 10% decrease from the cost on the same size custom map on another difficulty level.

cont...
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 22, 1999).]</font>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 22, 1999).]</font>

[Bblue]

GROWTH and INDUSTRY

Depending on what difficulty level you play on this will give the AI bonuses to it's Growth and Industry as follows:

Citizen -3
Specialist -2
Talent -1
Librairian 0
Thinker +2
Transend +3

Map Size will give Growth and Industry bonuses to both the AI AND the human players (for the AI they are cumulative with the difficulty bonuses)

Small Map +1
Tiny Map +2

There is also an additional +1 Growth and Industy bonus for the AI ONLY: the AI will get an additional +1 Growth and Industry IF it is a small or tiny map AND the difficulty is Talent, Specilist, or Citizen

Custom Size Maps DO NOT get map size bonuses no matter how small!!!

cont...

[Bblue]

The bonuses seem to interact with the game in some strange ways. I am not sure how negitive modifiers react with the game as I don't normally play at those levels and didn't feel like spending the time on it. As for the positive modifiers here is what I've observed so far

Negitive modifiers from factions and SE choices do get added in with the bonuses.(ie. +2 Growth for Tiny map and you play the Pirates.. +1 Growth). Positive Bonuses at first glance appear to be overridden, probably until the faction + SE modifiers are greater then the bonuses provided due to map size. Exception: the Drones with thier +2 Industry still get a +1 over and above the Map size bonus, so I am not clear what is exactly going on here. (Still working with this, hope I will figure it out)


I only spent 2 hours gathering this info so please leave a message if you know of something here that is incorrect as I am modifieing this post as I am still figuring things out; however, I think I got the basic gist of it. Once any errors are found and cleared up it would be nice it this information was saved somewhere that is accessable for future refrence and for new players. Maybe let Vel, if he wants to, clean it up and add it as an index to his Stradgy guide?

Alas, for the reason I started this.. what is the hardest map to play on. If you just take into account the bonuses discussed above and nothing else (ie. ease of getting to your oppent early, time for them to build up, etc..). Assuming the Human player plays a faction with the with no minues to Growth or Industry. Dividing your Growth/Industry by the AI's Growth/Industry.

Standard Map 10/7 = 1.42
Small Map 9/6 = 1.5
Tiny Map 8/5 = 1.6

On a Tiny map at Transend level the AI has a 60% faster Growth/Industry then a human player, compared to a 50% on a small map and 42% on a standard or larger map. So on these factors a tiny map at transend level should be the hardest.

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"Power does not corrupt; it merely attracts the corruptable"

[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 22, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 22, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 22, 1999).]

[LamprosWC]

I think you're overanalyzing it. The idea is:
1, ppl who play small maps wnat quick games, and vis a versa
2, Playing on a huge map, it would be possible to have a ton of tech by the time you met anyone if they did'nt slow you down.

I think it depends on the faction. Miriam is gonig to have some difficulties on the larger map, where as Lal could go nuts. Builder factions get helped, whereas conqueror factions get hurt. (this is proabably one reason for the teach bonus on the smaller map: balance builder factions at all levels.)

Alex

[Tau Ceti]

About the way bonuses add:

On smaller worlds, the bonus you get to Industry and Growth is reduced by 1 if you get a positive rating in other ways. A few examples for a tiny world:

Most factions:
Growth: 0 basic + 2 bonus = 2
Industry: 0 basic + 2 bonus = 2

Most factions running Planned:
Growth: 0 basic + 2 Planned + 1 bonus = 3
Industry: 0 basic + 1 Planned + 1 bonus = 2
(making Planned alone quite useless)

Santiago:
Industry: -1 basic + 2 bonus = 1

Yang:
Growth: +1 basic + 1 bonus = 2
Industry: +1 basic + 1 bonus = 2
(No better than the others!)

Yang running Planned:
Growth: +1 basic + 2 Planned + 1 bonus = 4
Industry: +1 basic + 1 Planned + 1 bonus = 3
(Yang gets full effect of Planned, though)

Domai:
Industry: +2 basic + 1 bonus = 3

Hope that helps.
[This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited November 23, 1999).]

[Bblue]

Thanks for the reply,
I think the way you discribe the bonus dropping to +1 is the best way to understand how the game handles how the difficulty/map size bonuses and faction/SE bonuses interact.

Knowing how the game handles this gives a better insight in how to play the early game (on smaller worlds), especially in regards to running Planned with no other bonuses! Effectively: +1 Growth for -2 efficiency, not much reason to use this until you can scare up some more bonuses from somewhere.

Thought: Could the AI running the Drones actually end up with a +9 Industry?!?! (Ponder: am I starting to talk like the aliens?)

Bounuses to industry that don't show up on the SE screens:
+3 Trancend Level
+1 Tiny Map (reduced from +2 since the Drones get a bonus here)

Bounus from SE/Faction
(Max from these is +5 anything larger is ignored)
+2 Faction bonus
+1 Planned or Wealth
+2 Eudaimonic

Total +9 !!

That's One mineral per line!!! or is there a limit? (maybe this is why the game reduces the bonus to +1, so an AI faction can't get a +10 (FREE!!) although it seems add odd way to handle this) I know the drones start with an effictive +6 Industry (4 minerals per line)hmmm.. maybe this is how they built the Bulk Matter Transmitter in one of my games in 3 turns

About small worlds, where the bonus is +1, does it drop to +0 with the first faction/SE bonus? You post seems to say this but I wanted to make sure as I haven't looked at small worlds as much as I have tiny ones.
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"Power does not corrupt; it merely attracts the corruptable"

[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 23, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 23, 1999).]

[RedFred]

Bblue - thanks for alerting me to the possibilities of the Drones. That big -2 research has meant that I haven't gotten around to playing them yet, but after seeing their amazing industrial potential I'll be giving them a shot next.

[Tau Ceti]

The bonus for a small world does drop to 0 in the same way, making Planned not very useful to anyone but Yang.

I do not have SMACX, so I cannot check this myself: do the Free Drones really get a 60 % reduction - only four minerals per line? I thought 50 % was the limit regardless of other bonuses. I have never seen an AI faction with better than 50 %, but then I cannot remember ever seeing any of them running Eudaimonic. Yang with Planned/Wealth should be able to reach +6 (on non-tiny maps), but he does not tend to run Wealth, either.

OTOH, I have seen AI cities needing only 3 nutrients per line, so I guess it is possible...

[Tau Ceti]

Hmmm... Looking through my save files, I found one where Yang obly needed 4 minerals per line. However, this was on a large world, and he was running Police State/Planned/Survival at the time! That means he must have at least +4 before any modifiers for faction and SE.

I checked the other factions too, and the results are strange. Check it out:

Miriam (Fundamentalist/Planned/Power)
+6 Growth (+7 with Creche), +4 Industry

Lal (Democratic/Planned/Power)
+7 Growth (no Creches), +4 Industry

Yang (Police State/Planned/Survival
+6 Growth (no Creches), +6 Industry

Santiago (Fundamentalist/Free Market/Power)
+5 Growth (+6 with Creche), +3 Industry

I just cannot see how Santiago can have an Industry only 1 level less than Miriam and Lal. The Growth ratings can be explained if we assume that they all get +5 Growth as a basic bonus, and that +6 Growth is the same as +5 Growth (5 nutrients per line - this is how it works for human players, but we get population boom), meaning that you need a Growth rating of +7 to need only 4 nutrients per line, and +9 to get 3 nutrients per line.
Confused? Well, me too.

By the way, it seems that the AI factions get an extra +1 Growth/Industry if the human player is Unsurpassed, and that the difficulty level bonuses also go down by 1 if SE settings give them at least +1 in that category. (At least on large worlds - I have not tested this for other map sizes.)

Perhaps someone from Firaxis could explain how all this really works?

[Bblue]

Ouch this is making my head hurt.

The more I look at the numbers the less sense they seems to make. Going to go load some old games and do some playing around (assuming I can find a good saved game, I just erased most of my old ones the other week :/)

Here is something else that you might want to keep an eye out for: The 'Energy Mantinece' Bug, where you only pay 1/3 of the upkeep cost for facilities on Transend (2/3 on Thinker). Does the comp get this benifit? I have a feeling that the code for this 'bug' was ment as a cheat/equilizer for the AI on high difficulty levels, but some how it got bugged up and effects the human player. If it does effect the AI the same way it does the human player, I hope Firaxis leaves it alone as far as the AI is concerned, but fixes it for the human (it's on the fix list) If it don't... well maybe it should I'll post any finding when I get a chance to take a good look at a more developed game. I am just hoping there is some rhymn and reason for the way the game gives it bonuses.

As a sidenote: I think there is a limit set at +7 as I don't think I have ever seen less then 3 blocks on a food/mineral line.

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"Power does not corrupt; it merely attracts the corruptable"



[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 24, 1999).]

[Tau Ceti]

^

[Bblue]

I have been meaning to get back to this, but it is the busy season at UPS and I hardly have time to play SMACX much less experiment with numbers Hoping to get back to this after the holidays.

Glad Tau Ceti bumped this maybe someone else would like the chime in with thier experiences and theroies on how these bonuses work.

as Tau Ceti stated:
"meaning that you need a Growth rating of +7 to need only 4 nutrients per line, and +9 to get 3 nutrients per line."
I have seen some hint of this kind of 'addition' but It don't seem to explain all the situations that pop up :/ and if there is a modifier for being unsurpassed, it seems like that may be a hard one to ferret out. But haven't given up yet.. just posponed for a while.

One thing I have done is look at the energy maintiance 'bug' for the AI.. and well.. guess what.. I'm not sure what is going on!
The AI definatly gets some kind of energy 'bonus', but it don't exactly match the energy mantiance bug, then agian, it is really hard to account for where the AI used money and recieved money from turn to turn. Gonna have to setup a test with a VERY small number of cities (like 2-3) and try to minimize 'outside forces'. I really wish I could corner Tim or some other Firaxis guy and have them go into detail on this type of thing.

All this 'cause... I just want to know... what are the rules of the game?

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"Power does not corrupt; it merely attracts the corruptable"



[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited December 09, 1999).]

[Tau Ceti]

I have not found a formula that explains all situations either. It seems the bonus can change in the middle of games, but I am not sure exactly what triggers it. My best theory at the moment is that the AI gets an additional bonus if the human player has been unsurpassed for a certain amount of time.

I am quite sure that the human player unsurpassed bonus is real. If you want to try it for yourself, I think this is the easiest way:

Start a new game as Zakharov. Get Planetary Networks quickly, or choose it as your start tech. Play as normal (though not extremely expansively), but try to find someone else and infiltrate them or get a pact with them. As Zakharov, you should be Unsurpassed at this point. Now take all your cities off nutrient production and set energy distribution to 100 % Psych; this way your faction should stop growing quite quickly.

Wait until the other faction runs Planned itself (to avoid the problem of bonuses being reduced), and has a larger population than you, then give them all your tech. That should make them Unsurpassed.

I would send a save to you if I had one. Sorry.

[Bblue]

Helpful *BUMP*

[gnome]

More and more I wish they had a "fair game" option that disables all computer cheats... and find some way to crank up the difficulty in ways less frustrating.

I was hoping I was playing a fair game at "librarian" setting as the manual described, but if this thread is correct there are minor cheats even on that level.

I bet there are a few of us who could write an AI that could whomp their AI's butt, even with theirs cheating.