Civ 3 vs Alpha Centauri (my take)

[Artifex]

It's been awhile since I played SMAC..was thinking of playing it again since I really did enjoy it. I enjoyed Civ 3 somewhat too, but SMAC was funner in a way (love unit design, the techs, government choices, and ability to make satelitte states).

The one thing that bothered me about SMAC was what I thought was pretty weak AI. I remember that basically all I ended up doing on the hardest difficulty levels was beelining to the aircraft and making jets and running roughshod over everyone...

Have they improved AI or is it still a cinch to win all the time?

In Civ 3 one of the good things about it is on emperor level it is challenging I must say..not to mention Deity. AI is probably one of its strong points.

So the way I see it SMAC wins on almost every point except maybe graphics and AI. But AI is about the most important point when you play these games solo like I play them.

Thoughts on this? What do you all think about these 2 games and how they compare?

[AMD4EVER]

I was thinking about buying Civ 3 but I haven't heard too many people say that it was as good or even in the same league as SMAC.

[Hydro]

I waited for reviews of Civ3 by people I trust (like the vaunted Vel). Unfortunately, they panned Civ 3, and attributed the ‘improved AI’ to giving it fewer options – streamlining both what the human and AI player can do. If there is only one path then it is hard to get lost.

So I never bought Civ3. SMAC/X is richer, even if it is older. In the end it depends on what you want.

[CEO Aaron]

Civ3 vs. Alpha Centauri, I give SMAC the win by TKO after 2 rounds.

[Adalbertus]

I played Civ3 a few times and returned back to SMACX. My brother tried it a few times and went back to CivCTP (bleargh). He likes the futuristic design even less than I do ...

[xobsidianx]

Smacx vs. CivIII

IMO, CivIII was a major disaster for one reason - national boundaries. Having another civ just walk in and a plant a city almost anywhere within your complex of cities ruins the game. It would have been a great game if it respected boundaries as in smacx. Culture is ok, and those cities affected by it would be cities close to a boundary line of another civ. Beause of the lack of boundaries, I never play civ III. Smacx is still the best turn based strategy game.

Galactic Civ. is good, but you can get dizzy watching all those spaceships flying around on your screen.

[Curiosity]

It feels like the main aim of CivIII was to eradicate any contribution that Brian Reynolds made to the genre. The secondary aim seems to have been to force people to use all the features of building an empire in every game.

Overall, it's mildly diverting, and one of these days I'll get around to learning to play it properly... but probably only after I've explored the dozen or so SMAC strategies I've thought up but not had time to try.

[Gufnork]

Civ3 is a bit weaker in the gameplay department than SMAC, but I think it's a great improvement from Civ2. And the much, much better AI makes it overall a better singleplayer than SMAC. The main reason I play SMAC now is due to too much Civ3 gaming. I liked the game, it's the first game I wasn't able to start on the hardest difficulty and win (I got my arse so royally kicked it was sad). Even winning on Emperor provides a challenge. The resources is another great function, it felt realistic. When your forces head towards the oil first to secure it, before heading for their capitol you feel something has been done right.

The thing that SMAC has that makes it so good is the variety of play. It's the SE table and the different factions that makes it so great IMFO. I was hoping they'd use the good things about SMAC in Civ 3, but they didn't. Still, it's a great game.

[Artifex]

I was burnt out on civ 3 too..so I went looking or my SMAC disk..I misplaced it I have a bunch of stuff in storage and can't find it after 2 days of frantic searching. I found my Alien Crossfire disk but it said I need SMAC installed to play.

So I went to my local PC stores and they all said its out of print.

Oh well..I was wanting to play smac again but looks like I can't.

I really hope they make an SMAC 2. This is the best strategy game ever..it needs a sequal soon.

I wish they would make an SMAC sequal instead of a bunch of lame civ3 expansions.

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Gufnork
Civ3 is a bit weaker in the gameplay department than SMAC, but I think it's a great improvement from Civ2.

I'm afraid I have to completely disagree with you there, Guf. CivIII's primary aim appears to have been to make a game bone-stupid enough to make the AI challenging. That's why they removed Zones of Control, a Civ staple since the original, because nobody at Firaxis wanted to tackle the problem of programing intelligent pathing into the AI. Now pathing goes from a complex problem (What's the smartest way to get there) to a very simple one (What's the shortest way to get there).

The change to the hitpoint dynamic also favors a Zulu style of play that's very easy to program. Before, units with a higher technology were tougher, back-loading the tech tree to favor late era units in combat. Now, units gain hit points simply by fighting more, again, a concession to the unit-spammy AI.

Finally, Culture forces you to halt offensives to consolidate your gains, lest your recent conquests and their garrisons revert to enemy control. This clearly is designed to allow the AI to recover from any swing in momentum an intelligent player might be able to achieve, and forces all players into playing the exact same way. No longer can you afford to forego infrastructure in favor of your military, your uncultured backwater will merely be absorbed by your nearest neighbor. And you can't forego a military, since a single scout unit can run around in your backfield capturing your workers and carrying them off into bondage.

The final damning stroke against Civ3 is its pathetic implementation of strategic resources. Woebetide the aspiring empire who can't find Iron deposits within a reasonable distance from their home. Civ-type games already suffer from the drawback that your opening position has vast repercussions upon your success and survival. There was no need to exascerbate that quality, and plenty of reasons not to.

[Gufnork]

I'm afraid I have to completely disagree with you there, Guf. CivIII's primary aim appears to have been to make a game bone-stupid enough to make the AI challenging. That's why they removed Zones of Control, a Civ staple since the original, because nobody at Firaxis wanted to tackle the problem of programing intelligent pathing into the AI. Now pathing goes from a complex problem (What's the smartest way to get there) to a very simple one (What's the shortest way to get there).

ZOC is something I don't miss. It's just a nuisance in the early expansion and totally irrelevant to anyone with a brain (ie everyone but the AI). And if you take the shortest route in Civ3 you won't get anywhere, strategic terrain is incredibly important (no fungus sneaking, but other terrain actually matter).

The change to the hitpoint dynamic also favors a Zulu style of play that's very easy to program. Before, units with a higher technology were tougher, back-loading the tech tree to favor late era units in combat. Now, units gain hit points simply by fighting more, again, a concession to the unit-spammy AI.

Well, different powersources is a nice touch, but it's too much. Doubling your power with one tech? I hate musthaves. SMAC unfortunatly has too many.

Finally, Culture forces you to halt offensives to consolidate your gains, lest your recent conquests and their garrisons revert to enemy control. This clearly is designed to allow the AI to recover from any swing in momentum an intelligent player might be able to achieve, and forces all players into playing the exact same way. No longer can you afford to forego infrastructure in favor of your military, your uncultured backwater will merely be absorbed by your nearest neighbor. And you can't forego a military, since a single scout unit can run around in your backfield capturing your workers and carrying them off into bondage.

Actually you can go both ways. And if someone culture up your cities, capture them from them, since they obviously don't have the military power that you do. If someone starts attacking you when going culture, they won't keep their towns. No matter which path you choose the one who does it best will win. And if you don't have a military in SMAC, I know I would squish you like a bug, just like in Civ.

The final damning stroke against Civ3 is its pathetic implementation of strategic resources. Woebetide the aspiring empire who can't find Iron deposits within a reasonable distance from their home. Civ-type games already suffer from the drawback that your opening position has vast repercussions upon your success and survival. There was no need to exascerbate that quality, and plenty of reasons not to.

Yes, starting positions matter more thanks to resources. It an even force you into wars. It's expensive to get them through trade and they are necessary. Even without them you can manage though. Iron is common and atleast one of your neighbours will have it. Take it from him. It will force you to war, though, which means you can't go pacifist all early age if you want to. Some people hate that, others likes that you're forced to adapt, to have a different game every time you play. To say it's all bad is rather harsh however. Say that you don't like it instead.

[Sheik]

I have been playing Civ3 now and the other day when I started SMAC I found the graphics very unappealing. However I love the map editor with SMAC and the UN. SMAC has many features I would add to Civ3 if I could.

[Sarxis]

CivIII was a step back from the dynamic and complex gamplay of SMAC.

And we all know why...

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Sheik
I have been playing Civ3 now and the other day when I started SMAC I found the graphics very unappealing. However I love the map editor with SMAC and the UN. SMAC has many features I would add to Civ3 if I could.

You like Civ 3's graphics better than SMAC's? I really hate SMAC's Caviars (those 3d unit images), but at least they are depicting something cool and complex. Civ 3's unit graphics on the other hand look like console game graphics. It has a vaguely similar look to a lot of RTS clickfests, but frankly not as good as most of them. I was frankly somewhat embarrassed to be playing Civ 3 with that f***ing caveman grunting about the map when anyone else was around, lest they see me playing what might appear to be some sort of kiddie game.

In every other category save the opening movie I prefer SMAC gaphics. They are much more immersive imo than Civ 3, and the interfaces are not only more useful and efficient, but look much better in SMAC. But Civ 3's opening movie rocks, while SMAC's and SMAX's are pretty lame in comparison.

As for gameplay, I agree with most here who cannot abide the almost binary style of Civ 3 play. SMAC resides at the other extreme, with so many viable means of reaching victory in the end that it is little wonder the cpu has a hard time holding its own against the human. I like the variety that SMAC offers the human player, and it is the reason that SMAC has remained on my computers since I got it.

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Gufnork
ZOC is something I don't miss. It's just a nuisance in the early expansion and totally irrelevant to anyone with a brain (ie everyone but the AI). And if you take the shortest route in Civ3 you won't get anywhere, strategic terrain is incredibly important (no fungus sneaking, but other terrain actually matter).

Again, you're wrong. ZoC's _do_ matter, they make it possible for me to hold a border without squatting units in every damend square, no matter how indefensible. Yes, they require intelligence to be circumvented, something most players will hopefully have, however, they also require additional resources to circumvent, either in the form of spies or boats or just plain time.

Originally posted by Gufnork
Well, different powersources is a nice touch, but it's too much. Doubling your power with one tech? I hate musthaves. SMAC unfortunatly has too many.

So you're content that an elite archer has a fair to middling chance of destroying a green tank? And besides, don't tell me the Civ3 tech-tree doesn't have any inordinately useful techs. The one that gives you legions springs to mind, since they utterly outclass any and all previous troops.

Originally posted by Gufnork
Actually you can go both ways. And if someone culture up your cities, capture them from them, since they obviously don't have the military power that you do. If someone starts attacking you when going culture, they won't keep their towns. No matter which path you choose the one who does it best will win. And if you don't have a military in SMAC, I know I would squish you like a bug, just like in Civ.

But you _can't_ go both ways, since if you go purely military, your offensive stalls in the first heavily cultured city, and meanwhile your other tea-swilling neighbors are hemming in your borders and subverting your outlying provinces.

Originally posted by Gufnork
Yes, starting positions matter more thanks to resources. It an even force you into wars. It's expensive to get them through trade and they are necessary. Even without them you can manage though. Iron is common and atleast one of your neighbours will have it. Take it from him. It will force you to war, though, which means you can't go pacifist all early age if you want to. Some people hate that, others likes that you're forced to adapt, to have a different game every time you play. To say it's all bad is rather harsh however. Say that you don't like it instead.

Stuck having to wade uphill against an legion-armed foe with piddly archers, especially when I can't hold a border, protect my villagers, secure any conquests I might be fortunate enough to obtain, or prevent my other neighbors from rendering my citizens French is just not my idea of fun. But you're right, it's not all bad. There's those jaw-droppingly mediocre graphics to distract me from what a sorry, half-baked chore they made my favorite game into.