Fixing ICS

[Chaos Theory]

Having been recently enlightened to the true power of ICS, I've played a few games that were decided purely by the amount of available, safe land. Note what I just said: no matter how much land one player had, if another had much more, that player won. Most strategies can only use so much land, but not ICS.

I'm wondering what could be done to reduce or eliminate the power of ICS, to encourage a variety of approaches to the game. I've thought of a few of my own:

1) Set a house limit on the number of bases a faction can build

2) Set a house minimum separation between bases of 3 tiles, instead of the game-enforced 2

3) Alter alphax.txt to change the production of the base tile from 2/1/1 to 2/0/1 or 1/0/1

[Lazerus]

Wouldn't that just knock off the power/utterly cripple the expanders like the Hive and make everybody pick Zak or morgan and sit around with 10 super bases researching until transcend ??

[Chaos Theory]

It might, so I came here for opinions. Regarding the base count limit, I figured something like 3x the 0 efficiency BD limit might be an appropriate number, enough to allow expansionist factions to spread some, but little enough that someone who wants to ICS can only take so much advantage of a huge landmass. The goal is to reduce ICS to the level of other strategies, not make it actively undesireable.

The key advantage of ICS is that every colony pod transforms a moderately productive worker (or drone) into a moderately productive worker + a base tile. You pay just as much as for a crawler, and get at least 4 resources (2/1/1) from it. The largest disadvantage is that it spreads your infrastructure and defense thin. On that note, I've thought of another possibility:

4) After the first X bases, no base can build a colony pod unless it has a certain minimum infrastructure (measured by buildings constructed and units produced). Certain buildings such as Rec Commons and Rec Tanks might not count. This minimum might rise with the number of bases already built. This would force diagonal growth instead of pure horizontal growth.

[CEO Aaron]

ICS isn't broken, and there are plenty of other ways to get those kinds of results from your faction. I've looked over the game you submitted which brought up this query, and if you'd build a few boreholes in the territory you controlled, you should have been able to easily outproduce Dee with the relatively smaller number of bases. In addition, your tech rate and income were considerably higher than Dee, which means that you'll obtain Bio-Engineering first, and have the cash to upgrade every former you've built to clean, cementing your production advantage. Once you've built fusion labs, your energy and lab production spirals higher and higher, and sooner or later you'll be getting Genejack factories. At that point your produciton capacity should easily dwarf the cash and tech-strapped Gaians.

If, after all that, you still think ICS is a better strategy than the specialist boom, you can still try to beat the ICSers at their own game, if you're so inclined. With the Weather Paradigm, or Environmental Economics, you can raise all the landmass you require on which to build your ever increasing number of bases.

Finally, ICS, while it's a good trick for the Gaians and Consciousness, isn't really suited to factions without an innate bonus to efficiency, so I think your worries of ICS obliterating all other styles of play are unfounded.

[Lazerus]

Anyways if you like playing the Hive (saw the game now aswell) you should be worshipping ICS

[Chaos Theory]

I used ICS to great effect as Zak and Domai, the latter running Planned for quite a while.

Aaron: I did have boreholes in my territory, mostly along the shores, though I may not have had enough.

Raising land increases the amount of land available, but not the amount of safe land. Although the AI is rarely capable of conquering a player, it's very capable of disrupting one enough that another, isolated player pulls ahead.

[Lazerus]

You didnt have enough boreholes, but i can see how it was tough being on a curved peninsula. Love it when i start off on a flat shore, 4 boreholes every 3 by 3 square
Thats why its useful to try and get an idea what techs the other human players have and the AI doesnt, if the AI starts nagging just let yourself be blackmailed so you can continue unhindered until you get to the stage they can be swatted without effort. If you like playing on maps that large aswell the AI will be of no bother at all, there will be a trickle of units every 10 years, a few rovers,ships or noodles will easily keep them pressed back.
Also means you can get those foil probes out on them and notch up a few of those useless techs that you blined past.

[Chaos Theory]

The huge map was abnormal. Typically, we use large (44x90). That game in particular, all the factions were remarkably evenly spaced out.

I'm worried that ICS dominates other styles because I've seen the flexibility in the way I play decrease as I get better. Every time I learn a trick, everyone I play with learns it (because I tell them), and we all become dependent on it.

For example, I once armored some of my crawlers. Now, I usually have clean reactors among other useful techs before anyone can bother my shores. I once kept more of a garrison. Now, I can't unless I know damn well an army is coming, because if I do, and it's not, my opponent is spending his minerals to pull ahead, and my garrisons will become obsolete.

[Mongoose]

It's a bummer to lose five or six bases to a single Fusion PB.

[Chaos Theory]

It is, but assuming ICS is dominant, your opponent shouldn't be able to do that without taking the same risk. And even if you lose 6 bases to a well placed PB, that's only as bad as if a normal player had lost 2-3 bases.

[Gufnork]

ICS has a weakness. Any early neighbour could quite easily nab quite a few of your bases since it's much harder to defend them all. And once someone is in your structure they can strike at your bases without being forced to walk in the open. It works very well if you're left alone, but that almost only happens on large and huge maps. Not to say that it can't be effective on smaller maps as well, just not as overpowered as you describe it.

[dmm1285]

I'm almost positive crawlers dont need any support, so upgrading them to clean is pretty pointless

[Curiosity]

Ah, now I find myself on the other foot than in the previous thread; arguing that ICS isn't really so strong.

If you compare ICS with a standard-type REX strategy for a similar amount of land, then ICS has a real phase of ascendancy while someone switches from REX to preparing for the first pop-boom. At the point the REXer has filled his continent, the ICSer has only half-filled his. Before the REXer has boomed, the ICSer has filled his continent up, and has double the population of the REXer.
After the first boom to size 7 the REXer is in a similar position to the ICSer, as his bases should be working almost all the tiles on his continent. The ICSer has better cash-flow, due to not needing to support any facilities. If he's in FM/wealth, then energy from the base square puts him squarely ahead, energy-wise.

After the second boom to size 14, the REXer is clearly ahead. They now have around double the population of the ICSer, and huge cash and science income from specialists. They're playing catch-up, but they're doing it in style. Once they get nodes etc. down, they're a lot better off than an ICSer. Productivity is about the same, assuming forests and borehole terraforming.

Once Orbital Spaceflight comes along, the ICSer can launch a load of sky hydroponics labs and boost his population with specialists. This is where he can really catch up with the REXer, though facilities should keep the REXer ahead.
The exception is where the ICSer can find a patch or land to lay down nutrient crawlers; a big fungus bank is ideal, especially for the Gaians. However, crawlers can always be killed off.

Militarily, the ICSer is in a strong position while the REXer is preparing to boom. If they're in police state, then they not only have high productivity, but also huge support. It really suits Yang.
Post-MMI, they're probably in trouble. Drop troops will slice them apart, and unless they get the cloudbase academy they haven't much hope of stopping them.


What screws things up, is if the ICSer can hit orbital spaceflight while they're still expanding. This requires huge amounts of land and a very fast tech-rate, i.e. the University starting next to the rainforest on the huge map of planet. Regardless, with unlimited space ICS is a killer.

Th only reason I would consider ICS to be a little unbalanced is that it's relatively unskilled. Putting together a good pop-boom takes a lot of practice, whereas ICS can be used straight out of the box.

Anyway; to tackle the issue at hand, if you want to stop ICS, I suggest you play with low land mass. If an ICSer stalls at 30 bases then it's pretty much over.

[Lazerus]

ICS has a weakness. Any early neighbour could quite easily nab quite a few of your bases since it's much harder to defend them all. And once someone is in your structure they can strike at your bases without being forced to walk in the open. It works very well if you're left alone, but that almost only happens on large and huge maps. Not to say that it can't be effective on smaller maps as well, just not as overpowered as you describe it.

Not true for Yang and he is the main ICS'er , all of his bases will have atleast 1 unit as police, maybe 2 if its large, add that a perimeter defense, then multiply this by the fact theres prob 5 nearby bases and trying to get a foothold is really tough. Switch the role and if he nabs one of your bases, +3 insdustry (wealth,planned) and no real support probs they'll just keep coming once you've shown weakness.

Curiousity is exactly right with the phases a normal payer and an ICS'er go through. A normal player needs to get choppers and orbital about 15yrs before the ICS and really get in some damage before the tech gets caught up. On the other hand the ICS'er has anytime before that, or very late game in which his industry will make short work of any slight tech difference.

[Lazerus]

I'm almost positive crawlers dont need any support, so upgrading them to clean is pretty pointless

I think he meant he has the tech for clean reactors ie, a huge military.

Anyway; to tackle the issue at hand, if you want to stop ICS, I suggest you play with low land mass. If an ICSer stalls at 30 bases then it's pretty much over.

unless he starts raising land early / takes to the seas (high nut+energy bases, add in coastal borehole)