FM and Transcend/Huge?

[UnityScoutChopper]

Very short comment -- I'm not keeping silent here because of chickening out on the discussion (well, OK, maybe a *little*, but because of RL responsibilities and because That Game You All Hate (which I, on the contrary, find to also be fun). Some really interesting stuff here, some of it I find same old same old (those who talked about Psych), some of it quite to the contrary extremely good arguments

I play Transcend because even transcend is too easy (I'm a Civ I vet - maybe that's why I love easy pop-booming); I play games for fun, not to "improve my game" (except when that's fun).

In that light - I find pods fun, so I'll be keeping them. Considering the power of podcash, this perhaps means that *for the particular settings I like to use*, the equation shifts a bit in favor of Planned longer. (I also play Huge, which means more pods to pop.) Again to avoid hardening of the attitudes, I should try a podless game - but I doubt it'll become my preference. I *like* the adrenaline involved. (I don't restart - except the occasional total restart or the occasional I'm-so-pissed-off-I-don't-give-a-sh*t-anymore restart, where I usually soon quit in shame thereafter anyways.)

By the way, I'm a purist on base spacing (never less than 4 unless that rule shuts out a prime site, and even then...), which on the other hand probably argues in *favor* of FM.

More later within a week after I read your replies more carefully, playtest them, and meditate on them a bit.

UCS

[UnityScoutChopper]

[rant, post 1 of 2]
Ah heck, no chickening out.

First, I jumped back and forth a lot in the text when composing this, so please accept my apologies if anythings ends in mid-

Second, some abbreviations and terms I'll be using below:

DP - (not necessarily applied) droneless population (potential)

DDP - default DP

UDP - unaided DP

ADP - applied DP

FOP's - Factors of Production, i.e. nuts, mins, and energy for anyone just tuning in.

FOK's - Factors of Karma - that hard-to-quantify stuff, yet impossible-to-ignore stuff like contacts, the last non-Alien contact, information on territory, diplomatic relations, etc. Maybe I should call them FoM's (Factors of the Metagame), but I like FOK's better. Arguably the best example of a FOK is a tech - like most FOK's, they cost and earn FOP's, sometimes in mysterious ways.

PodMetaFOP's - things from pods that are closer to being FOP's than FOK's, like energy, units, and techs.

PodFOK's - FOK's from pods.

Thin expansion - Expansion whose only limits are available territory after border grabs, common-sense evaluation of defensibility, the need to escort units in worm territory, efficiency of direction, efficiency of pod-travel ("not travelling 10 turns"), and b-drones.

The Lal Rule (LR): Because of the difficulty of converting all DP to ADP, especially during thin expansion, the rapidly declining value of each extra square worked during thin expansion, and the rapidly declining *percentual* increase in a base's capacity, even with good terraforming, per extra square worked, ALTHOUGH THE FIRST POINTS OF DP ARE CRITICAL, EVERY POINT OF DP IN A BASE IS LESS VALUABLE THAN THE ONE BELOW IT. This means that, although DP #1 is, perhaps, arguably as important as DP #0 or even more important, DP #2 in a base is less valuable than DP #1, DP #3 is less valuable than DP #2, etc. I call this the Lal rule because it makes Lal's (and Domai's) drone-fighting trait more valuable on Transcend and less valuable below Transcend.

The Lallish Growth Rule (LGR): No point in having growth if you don't have the DP's to use it.

The Modified Velociryx Rule (MVR): Mins and Nuts rule the early game (in honor of Velociryx's statement in his Guide that "Minerals rule the early game", which which I mostly agree). This is because units rule the early game - I've never found a way to (directly) found a base or kill a mindworm using a Recreation Commons. :-) (Dang I love SMAC - for things like the many ways in which an RC could indirectly found a whole base or kill a mindworm. That's great! But for me, until an empire is large enough for decent synergy of effects, directs talk and indirects -- even money -- walk.)

The Inverse Modified Vel Rule (IMVR): If not_early_game then R00LZ == XOR (minerals_and_nutrients_and_not_energy). Er, I mean, Energy rules after the early game. I won't question that - nuts are cheap and are more affected by the LR than energy, and you only need two food to boom (though you silly FMers ;-) need to throw away implicitly-uncustomizable psych flows to provoke GA's). Minerals are cheap, are more affected by the LR than energy, and have rapidly rising opportunity costs.

Consolidation: Trading expansion for vertical growth. (Of course, hopefully precisely at the moment when the costs/benefits ratio shifts in favor of the former).

Vertical Growth: Increase in city sizes.

Expansion: Increase in basecount, "horizontal growth".



All of this is on Transcend/Huge/Pods/Directed/generally 4-spaced or direct-3-diagonal ("puristic") bases, with occasional one-vector variations from this setup.

I do take the IMVR seriously, and have no quarrel with the argument for FM once it kicks in.

Thus, you could summarize the issue in this thread to these questions:

Q1: Is the MVR valid?

If it is valid, then, IN THE CONDITIONS I ENJOY,

Q2: Which of the following sides of the scales is heavier (positives add weight, negatives reduce it)?

?/Planned/?:
- MVR-friendly,
- early extra growth and/or cash due to not needing RC's, later lost growth/cash/FOK's (e.g. expansion, since fringe drones are the hardest to fight) due to needing them but not having the money
- both effects discounted by the Lallish Growth Rule,
- extra growth from GROWTH,
- lost growth from b-drones,
- wormcash,
- increased worm survival before SotHB
- less money to invest in trance upgrades after SotHB
- podMetaFOP's
- podFOK's
- FOK's from being able to send non-zero-attack non-independent units beyond the borders, including
- tile-knowledge FOK's
- contact FOK's
- governership-deciding FOK's (acting synergetically with Planned's extra growth, if that growth is no illusion)
- Faster-expansion FOP's and FOK's (if faster expansion for Planned is no illusion)
- the Metaproblem, perhaps, of forcing a switch to Demo earlier than FM would require it.
- Although I am too poor at mathematics to do the math properly, it SEEMS to me that each increase in IND rating is more valuable than the last, due to 1/9th being better than 1/10th, which is in turn better than 1/11th, actually. Only Planned/Wealth allows +2 IND in the early game. (Plus, early FM/W offers a metawasteful early +3 ECON, although on the other hand getting extra energy per base and losing it again to efficiency or having to go demo to fight that is also metawasteful.) Incidentally, if this is true, and even more so if one can consider FM/W a bad deal, this means that, especially after considering POL, the Spartans have less to lose from FM than anyone.

?/FM/?:
- extra AVERAGE_GAINED_EN energy x (workers + basecount) x (GOODEFF, the ratio by which its efficiency beats ?/Planned/?), of course. (My guess is that AVERAGE_GAINED_EN ranges between .5 and .8 in the early game, since that excludes Envi Eco, but I have no idea what GOODEFF is, only that it gets better and better for FM over time.)
- invert Planned's positives from the list above, where applicable
- invert Planned's negatives from the list above, where applicable
- example: FM loses weight for the relative -2 growth, then gains it again because slower expansion makes keeping up the RC's possible
- All of that once again weakened by the LGR
- very specifically give FM a small minerals bonus in the pre-crawler period since core cities can perhaps be left ungarrisoned
- very specifically give FM a nice minerals metabonus for the times when the relative +2 EFF makes avoiding Demo possible
- (in the last part of the early game) charge FM a fee for earlier crawler-caused wormpops and its weakness in not losing from them, let alone profiting from them, unless good, plentiful, and preferably fast empath units are built or rushable already at that time.

I've seen a lot of passionate arguments in this thread for heavily scoring the penalties of early-game Planned and benefits of early-game FM (and, partly since I didn't stress my acceptance of the IMVR strong enough, I've also seen some partly unnecessary arguments for mid-game FM -- but my comments on Q3). Some are natural and old hat, some are new and intriguing, and I'm sure many more new ones have yet to come.

Bring your weights to the scales!



Now, if you agree that, IN THE MENTIONED CONDITIONS, these factors really do tip the scales to Planned IN THE EARLY GAME, then the natural next question is:

Q3: What, for you personally, defines the start of the middle game in this sense of the phrase (in other words, when do you see the tipping to FM if you don't see the balance as ALREADY having been there in the early game, the demolishing of the MVR, the rapid rise and reign of the IMVR, etc.)?

I have a feeling that I perhaps I really am pushing back my decision "It's midgame, let's FM" too far. It's often "just one more boom turn" or "just the moment I can go D/FM/K." And for any of you who might have an emotional interest in selling me earlier FM, this is the strongest lever you can pull.

On to discussion of the posts.

---------

Jamski -

Planned is fine if you don't want to research anything.

Not in my experience, at least not in the early game. Ol' podlotto gets me bountiful podMetaFOP's and podFOK's (and this includes many mindworm pops, since I can often afford to tag-team, and I'm not struggling at a negative planet rating). Also, my constant conversion of research into other assets combined with my fast exploration earns me FOK's every turn, since I am far more likely to be able to beg/buy/steal/trade for techs than if I am the tech leader but lacking contact with other factions (remember, this is Huge maps). Thus to some degree, with early Planned, I get to have my cake and eat it too.
As mentioned above, the fast growth and exploration of planned mean a better grab at the first governorship, as well (in those cases where the increased b-drones, and thus doctors, don't counteract the growth). Of course, it's important to know when to trade booms for better use of governorship income. And I just may not be doing that right.

Mongoose -

thank you more than you might think for confirming that PBEM's are generally played at Transcend. I always thought they might be played at lower levels, due very, very precisely to the Lal Rule.
Likewise thanks for confirming that early FM'ers aren't doin' it with doctors. I'm still not sure if rushed RC are competitive with cops (not to mention the occasional Ogre or deliberate I.I. beeline, and the occasional FungBoy or Morgan game (where I sure as hell won't trade Simple or Green for ICS-based based income (since I don't ICS) nor for commerce income (which I rarely receive in the early game in quantities that make it worthwhile)). But... I'm looking forward to finally playing that test early-FM game.

You know by now my love of podlotto. Though I understand some player's disrespect for it, I don't share that disrespect. Too many years of goody huts, perhaps. Plus the adrenaline, plus its "default" status (although as I mentioned above, I do play blind off, for Civ-tradition's sake and because I don't enjoy "pin the tail on the donkey" research).

One more question for you, Mongoose (and for anyone else who wants to chime in) - if you do use Planned early, do you ever switch to planned/wealth for the IND bonus, rush RC's and perhaps RT's, and then quickly switch to FM/W? As I mentioned above, I can't much see the use for early FM/W/Huge for the same reason I can't see much use for early FM/Morgan/Huge. I do on the other hand see the use of FM/K, though I fear the IND hit. Im sure I'll hear there are plenty of early FM/W lovers here - bring it on!

CEO -

First Mongoose wrote:

Depending on Psych to deal with the second citizen is foolish.

Then you wrote:

Mongoose is right, I do recommend rush-building your tanks first while you're running FM, then rush building a former, then perhaps your commons or a garrison.

Now wait! Mongoose recommended RC's (though he correctly pointed out you would stress RT's more highly). With:
- no cops (FM),
- no RC's (your quote), and
- no Psych (Mongoose's quote), and just to reflect the overall mood here (see the recent WP thread)
- no HGP....

there's NOTHING left to fight the Transcend situation situation of b-drones leaving no droneless population (DP) except to
1. sacrifice to avoid them (hit the +0 barrier (no demo, since we're immediately rushing) and stop expanding), or
2. be Miriam and coast until the +2 barrier (since Demo is pretty painless if you're an early builder, which I am, especially since Huge forces it), or
3. be Lal and wait until the double-reverse-gotcha-wham double-b-drones, which is a bit longer, or
4. stay out of Demo (sacrificing growth and efficiency) and start riding a modified version of the wave: evaluating in each case the relative benefits of the commons and the tank (with the RT usually being +1/+1/+0 due to corruption until Demo, and the RT usually being +1/+1/+(-1+x), where x is the post-corruption energy gain - probably 1 for energylocked, demoless FM, making them both +1/+1/+0... an interesting choice!).

(Here are even more needless parentheses for your amusement: (((()))))).)

CEO/Mongoose: you both recommend doctors - this brings the opportunity cost of FM up EXTREMELY high until the RC's are in (making me all the more surprised at the CEO) - and indeed, I sometimes do a dry-run of an early FM switch and
1. slap on the doctors,
2. note to myself which RC's I could reasonably build to avoid doctors and "refund" those to FM,
3. compare the energy flow and turns to tech,
4. charge FM for my estimate of the pods/worms energyflow per turn,
5. charge FM 1 energy per city (half-mineral lost at -1 relative industry rating for a production-4 city multiplied by two for the energy-->mins smart-rush-buy),
5. Charge FM for the growth loss (charging it again for the loss due to doctors, but then (PERHAPS INSUFFICIENTLY) refunding it due to the reduced benefit (assuming expansion's outstripped terraforming) and increased opportunity cost of each new citizen per base even when cops and pod/wormcash-built RC's are available)
6. ALMOST NEGLECT TO charge Planned (probably not enough) for the requirement to keep my garrisons on cop duty rather than backfilling my pod-popping (I leave many out as I rush outwards), filling out my knowledge of coastal areas and other omitted intraborder areas, etc.
7. NEGLECT TO charge Planned for the support of garrisons in unthreatened cities (although arguably in FM every city is threatened by the "enemy within" in the period after intensive min-crawling starts and before tree farms and 1e-1->1's kick in).

My usual decision is - hell with it! and I end the experiment, sending the doctors back home. I'm tradMaybe I'm right and the pods and the huge maps really do make this decision right, but maybe neglecting 5, 6, and 7 (and anything else you mention in your reply) really is leading to poor decisions here.

CEO-only again:

taking a citizen off a square producing 2 nuts and a food for a few turns isn't so bad

This depends a lot on which citizen it is. Since even with thin terraforming, the first citizen often works a square that competes in value with the base square, I find it hard to agree with you regarding the FIRST worker. During my long expansion phase, I also find it hard to agree with you regarding the SECOND worker, not only because a (non-ICS'd) city's 2nd tile is still pretty good, but also because, if we agree to consider unit-rushes inefficient, then energy helps me less than minerals and food in pumping out the next pod, escort, fast defender, scout, whatever. I do agree with you in three cases: 1) workers who "don't need to exist" (in mineral-maxing RC-less early SP-builders, in poor-terrain future-benefit cities, etc.), 2) when the per-turn benefit of something brought by a NON-TRADABLE tech, brought in turn by the science, can be seen as having a min/nut value higher than the energy. (Examples: Wealth, II-plus-temporarily-leaving-FM-and-knowing-where-the-hell-to-stick-the-cops-when-you-switch-back-in, spies, Tree Farms, etc.), and 3) when you could give a flying @#$$ about fringe-bases' troubles, because you've got your terraforming, cheap infrastructure, and high-pop core bases in. But... that's almost not the early game, and we're talking the early game.

CEO:

Any and all of the veteran posters here will tell you that rushing production give great dividends in terms of turn advantage, and running FM gives you the kind of cash that will let you rush build almost everything.

True for pod machos. Not quite as true for me. However, there is a point where my expansion outstrips my rush-buying ability, where I am ignoring just the right timeline to switch to FM, DESPITE the kind of game I like to play.

This is related to what I call "Stages" of b-drone growth (and in a sense the game overall). I'll leave those for my next post, because I only have enough time to answer you all, or finish that rant. I think you all deserve an answer. For the moment I'll just say: it just may be a sign of the midgame that I am not respecting enough. (I.e. who cares if FM can't handle my drones once I reach the point where Planned can't either?)

Any and all of the veteran posters here will tell you that rushing production give great dividends in terms of turn advantage, and running FM gives you the kind of cash that will let you rush build almost everything.

As you probably see by now, I am just chasing an alternate path to cash for rushing, in a set of conditions and with a code of honor (non-tight-base-spacing) that perhaps the majority of people don't like, but I do. The most open question is: even in that case, am I perhaps doing it too long?

[/rant, post 1 of 2]

[UnityScoutChopper]

[rant, post 2 of 2]

Flubber:

Like most post of yours I've seen, this one is so good that it's hard to comment on it, especially since you seem like a kindred crypto-pinko soul. I'm not very flexible about switches; it takes a long time before I am confident I couldn't better spend those 40 or 80 EC on a better investment.

You mention a lot of factors affecting the decision for or against midgame FM (and thus indirectly and perhaps unintendedly argue even more in favor of SE flexibility):
Wasted econ if you've had the misfortune to enter the IMVR phase before Envi Eco...
metawasted +3 ECON under pre-vassal FM/W if you like Wealth for the +1 IND or you'd like something better than nil values, but don't have access to or want K or P...
the reduced percentual increase in raw energy once all your worked squares are producing >=2 energy anyway...
the jump from "effective Planet rating of -0.5 or so" to an effective rating matching the true rating once mineral crawlers go on line...
the jump from "effective Police rating of -2.25 or so" to an effective rating matching the true MINUS FRICKIN' FIVE rating in the period after being otherwise able to field an army or build noodles/game-breakers, but before massive affordable Psych flows, massive installation of Brood Pits, and/or Punishment-Sphere-abuse tomfoolery (if that's even your thing) go on line....
...and if you do happen to explo... er, use specialists, then they thin out the percentage of energy from the FM bonus even more...
...and as mentioned, there are arguments for Green (especially after the Vats).
...oh, yeah, duh. Planned's cheaper pop booms, which still are valuable in the early midgame. These throw the biggest wrench into the works of all! Since cops often double in value twice in the midgame (II, AV), then I often let myself get locked into milking them. Some base somewhere is always able to do a low-psych popboom if I stay in Planned Just One More Turn, and I am always so unsure when the value of that fact has shrunken (due to the Lal Rule) enough to tip the scales in favor of FM. (It's a nice trick of the ruleset that the Lal Rule affects Lal the strongest in the midgame as well, due to the extra size of his bases. Of course, the IVMR kicks in sooner for him than usual as well, since the IVMR is linked to consolidation and the extra horizontal drones and reduced vertical drones make earlier consolidation for him a no-brainer.) Meanwhile, the number of garrisons, i.e. units that will lose their value the moment I leave planned (unless I have built Cleans and/or I am feeling sleazy and non-bored enough to micromanage the El Cheeso scout-to-best/best/1/best-abilities trick) just keeps getting bigger, making the easy-to-see benefits of Planned larger and larger. I think the trick is to learn to see the harder-to-see benefits of FM.

On the opposite side of the midgame scale, we have (besides the inherent arguments for FM that apply even before the midgame)...
...once again the Cloning Vats, which effectively convert Demo to +2 EFF/-2 support (although it's still a good deal that just keeps getting better at that stage) and above all Planned to +1 IND/-2 EFF (which unarguably sucks).
...not to mention future gov's in the very late game (though these cut both ways)
...not to mention the AV
...not to mention late-game happiness and Planet SP's.
...not to mention, for Transcend victories the very-late-game nearly-warless (single-non-vassal) phase where FM pops back up to a by-now-laughable -2 police rating.

Maybe one could say: Energy rules the midgame and beyond, but even in the midgame and beyond FM does not always rule for long-term or even short-term energy. The key is to analyze the above midgame factors and find the right time window, or more likely windows, where FM DOES rule for that. What the heck ARE they?

CEO:

Being fond of keeping my bases in perpetual golden age,

...which doesn't happen for free... 'nuff said.

Of course, if you can stay in green and keep your bases in GA and run wealth, you get the best of both worlds (2 energy per square as well as +4 efficency, +6 if you run Democracy).

...which is something I've never thought of before, and sounds really cool for the experience of doing it if nothing else. However, it means a growth of +2 (demo OF COURSE) -2 (green) +2 (GA) +2 (Creche), so it means you can't pop-boom. Sounds like FM GA's are still better unless there's no benefit in booming or you've got the Vats.

I'll skip the specialists comment, since I'm a sprawler and I like it.

johndmuller:
[/quote]USC, it's mostly a matter of accepting that you've gotta deal with the drones pretty much right away, the very first citizen, in fact, once you get the first half dozen or so bases over with. [/quote]

I have always accepted that fact like nobody's business. And I do deal with it. With cops and RC's while I can. And they work darn good, and unlike psych, they only go where they're needed.

[/quote]So you're gonna have to have a Rec Comm pretty early on,[/quote]
...unless I'm Lal, or Domai, or Santiago with a good support base, or Uni with VW, (or Yang or Fungboy with wormcops or the surprisingly effective police/green Deirdre, though I realize they are less relevant for a discussion of FM), or have the HGP, or have beelined to II, or whatever I might have forgotten. This is a VERY wide palette of options, all of which seem better to me than paying (at least at first) for 3 DP and only using 2 (due to pumping out CP's). Even with demo, the unit-based solutions can be provided at surprisingly low cost, since it's less painful than you might think to pump escorts out from the core (and sometimes redistribute their support as they radiate)... boosted by cop-supported pop and +1 IND. Later on, however, even if I haven't begun consolidating anyway, a size-two base can have 3 or even 4 drone-equivalents, and then I agree with you.

and perhaps an early Holo or RHosp too

I'm talking about the early game, not the consolidation period. Then I'll either be cranking out the nodes (an argument for FM, incidentally) or cursing myself and cranking out the Holos and nodes and planning (and maybe even Planning) sweet revenge if feasible.

(and a PDQ HabComplex too if you're Morgan)... you'll more than likely be running wealth while your at it).

I'm not sure if you're saying that this is a reason to run Morgan on FM, but I REALLY, REALLY think an early transcend-level Morgan needs >2, let alone >3 ECON like a fish needs a bicycle. Avoiding vendetta is not always easy, avoiding truce is tougher, and avoiding a mere treaty is a prize that you'll get from two factions if you're lucky or three if you're fabulously lucky, IME. And in many cases, if you are expanding very quickly (sizes >3), you may not be pulling much in to attract the income anyway. And since with -5 police you can't send units other than independents and spies (well, ok, maybe trance synth rover formers :-)) out exploring, how will you make quick contact to get those pacts and treaties?

Early Lal FM I can begin to understand, and it's the kind of thing I'm in this thread for. Early Santiago FM I can begin to understand. Early Morgan FM (in my conditions blah blah), I can't even begin to understand.

Maybe this is an early-versus-midgame misunderstanding again. What use, after all, would I have for a size-five city, except perhaps in my core, while expanding?

Again, this is a classic case of my odd game preferences skewing the matter, I admit. Exploration income rivals homemade income for much longer.

Sometimes, it helps to be a bit more deliberate - as in pre-terraforming and/or having crawlers available to be turned over to the new base for food and/or mins

Thin expansion...

(to feed your doctor...

The best-fed doctor is the one who never has to go on duty. Why move a 3-rows unit outside the core, thus reducing its efficiency, to solve a problem that you can solve just by not running FM (and if running Planned, build the crawlers faster to boot)?

and keep up some growth while you're building the facilities

Wait up! I'm not building them (except the RT's when I can) until I have to! 1-min-row cost = good. 4-min-row cost = bad. No support-at-first = good. 1 EC-support-from-the-start = bad.

rush those first 10 mins

This means Demo/FM... almost a double whammy for expansion. It's the early game! I'm still expanding!

For example, if you are already crawling mins from forests or mines just outside your developed territory, you can have one or more crawlers ready to go as early as the same turn the base is built.

Intriguing, but less effective for sprawlers like me. I'd rather be building crawlers in the core (which includes more bases over time) and crawling in the core (where I have had the most time to terraform).

Getting along... those morale deductions...

FANTASTIC analysis. I should break my "I-hate-notetaking" mold and have every last drop of that right at the top of a txt file open behind SMAC.

Again, CC's are for after consolidation, which is not so much what I'm talking about.

TimeTraveler -

I guess one possible late-game strategy to using Free Market at Transcend level is to also use Police State and Thought Control,

An interesting thought, but I agree with CEO's objections.

CEO -
Fundy? Never. Who cares what your morale, support or probe rating is if you've got huge cities with great efficiency and good research? My Very Green high-attack copters will fly up the ranks quite soon enough if I get them out soon enough!

The one drawback of this SE setup is that you'll piss off virtually every faction under Alpha Centauri

ROTFLMAO! You're not alone, CEO! My beloved Demo/Planned/Wealth pisses off everyone but the Aliens (who will still hate me anyway), Domai, Lal (who, if he takes off, is a literally erratic psychopath when played by the AI and thus will often still hate me anyway), Aki (I think), Roze (I think), and... that's about it. About the only ones that count are Aki and Rose -- better than your situation in most respects, but hey, can I trade you my happy Aki for a happy Miriam?

Of course, I'm in the habit of solving my popularity problems by conquering myself a few friends, at which point the merits of having +3-4 econ and the Planetary Governorship make themselves blissfully apparent.

Midgame, well perhaps late midgame, I'm with you 100% on that. But before then...

+4 econ means Morgan. Why give up all those extra benefits when you could apply the fact he's not gonna grow anyway, and just run D/G/W for most of the benefits (until those vassals are... created) and other ones too, at a fraction of the cost (until those vassals are... created)?

And finally Mongoose... really intriguing comments once again, and ones I find easy to agree with, although I do feel quite CHEAP using the shell expl, er, tactic. This bothers me much more than crawling (even though the AI can't crawl either), because it just doesn't feel to me like "a real part of the game." Danged effective I'll admit.

If I don't have much commerce, I'll change from Wealth to Knowledge. If I wait to go on the offensive 'til my infrastructure is pretty well set in a core of 12 - 18 bases, I'll have so much energy that the difference in rushbuilding an item at even Industry vs. +1 industry is inconsequential.

And this, on the other hand, is a midgame issue where I'm REALLY undecided once FM kicks in. You've got:
Simple: suprisingly attractive considering the heartbreaking aspects of the other three, though I've never tried sticking in Simple myself (I always take a stand, man!)
Power: marginally attractive if you really screwed up earlier and you really need a lot of support, but if you're that bad off, the IND hit will probably keep you from cranking up on time - and soon you can just build clean units at need. Easy one to decide against, but...
Wealth: A boost to EC's and science that starts out weak, but gets better and better early if you can start collecting vassals early. But until you have them, you sit there thinking I COULD BE MAKING GREAT MONEY AND WORLD-SMASHING TECH! (On the other hand, the morale loss is IMO laughable, since you are making stuff cheaper than most folks, and better than anyone but the guy running knowledge.)
Knowledge: A boost to EC's and science that, ironically often arrives just late enough for Wealth to be competitive with it due to vassals, but also just late enough for the +1 EFF to become competitive with +1 ECON. You really can rake in the techs, and make stuff better and do it in better ways that make it cheaper and faster. But you still sit there saying WHY AM I PAYING SO MUCH FOR THIS CRAP! Since an average base, counting the fringes, makes at least 10 mins a turn at this point, you're losing about a min per base per turn, i.e. dozens of 'em. It's really hard to say. On the other hand, what is inarguably frustrating is having to build so many dang probes to avoid the cities you conquer from being bought off you (including all your keen units) so infuriatingly dirt cheap.

Oof, it's 2 a.m. So many ideas... so many ideas...

My apologies to anyone who was bored by this, but still read this far. I hope that I've sparked some ideas in some people's heads, and I really look forward to seeing a marvelous defense of FM during the expansion period (FM-lovers' RC comments, despite my objections, are a large chunk of the way there in my opinion, especially when carefully combined with early podwhoring) and discussion of where the first and the later windows for most effective use of FM open and close.

Thanks once again to you all.

UCS

[/rant, post 2 of 2]

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by UnityScoutChopper

?/Planned/?:
- MVR-friendly,
- early extra growth and/or cash due to not needing RC's, later lost growth/cash/FOK's (e.g. expansion, since fringe drones are the hardest to fight) due to needing them but not having the money
- both effects discounted by the Lallish Growth Rule,
- extra growth from GROWTH,
- lost growth from b-drones,
- wormcash,
- increased worm survival before SotHB
- less money to invest in trance upgrades after SotHB
- podMetaFOP's
- podFOK's
- FOK's from being able to send non-zero-attack non-independent units beyond the borders, including
- tile-knowledge FOK's
- contact FOK's
- governership-deciding FOK's (acting synergetically with Planned's extra growth, if that growth is no illusion)
- Faster-expansion FOP's and FOK's (if faster expansion for Planned is no illusion)
- the Metaproblem, perhaps, of forcing a switch to Demo earlier than FM would require it.

You've described in Pro and Con format the age old Planned verses FM discussions and for the most part I agree with all your pros and cons. THe big effect you most describe are those of game setting. IF you choose a high fungus pods on world then yes by all means FM detractors can make assertions that it is an inferior choice to Planned. If OTOH you have a pods off low fungus game than the effects you mention start to tip in favor of FM.

- Although I am too poor at mathematics to do the math properly, it SEEMS to me that each increase in IND rating is more valuable than the last, due to 1/9th being better than 1/10th, which is in turn better than 1/11th, actually. Only Planned/Wealth allows +2 IND in the early game. (Plus, early FM/W offers a metawasteful early +3 ECON, although on the other hand getting extra energy per base and losing it again to efficiency or having to go demo to fight that is also metawasteful.) Incidentally, if this is true, and even more so if one can consider FM/W a bad deal, this means that, especially after considering POL, the Spartans have less to lose from FM than anyone.

You've poo-pooed the effect of extra econ too much. In the best case this means a significant cash opportunity for Morgan, others to a lesser extent. Pre-restriction lifting the best means to raise large amounts of energy to power your research is too run high econs to allow base squares to have nergy outputs. Since you'll be on a thin expansion routine wherein by the time you've hit a population 2 (and hence a b-drone) you've also popped out another colony pod. In doing so you've kept base sizes at a modest size 1 or 2 and as a consequence have between 1/3 to 1/2 of your squares worked at 5+ energy outputs.

Couple this with the fact that most people are racing in the early game to get to IA as soon as possible and other beelines that follow you'll find many folks looking to capitalize on a 30 econ 70 labs split. Doing so at the -2 efficieny of planned offers you very little if anything whilst at 0 efficiency of FM allows opportunities for faster research rates.


See my dsicussions on early game builder discussions

here at Civgaming

[CEO Aaron]

When I said that Goose is right, I meant this quote:

Originally posted by Mongoose

(CEO would probably counsel rushing the recycling tank first at that price, then rushing the rec commons a few turns later, after you have accumulated 10 mins in the production box by normal production or by rush buying the remainder of the first 10 mins at 4 ec/min.)

I later clarified that I typically crank out tanks first, then a former, then a garrison or commons.

Ogie's pretty much said the stock case in favor of early FM, namely the power of reaching Industrial Automation, especially with a large reserve of cash. Use a couple of upgraded crawlers to crashbuild WP, and you'll be crawling condenser farms before you know it.

[Sikander]

I agree with Ogie on the early power of the energy in the base square, especially with Morgan or Zach who get there sooner than the other factions. A thin Morgan expansion to the second bureacracy limit (or beyond) with recycling tanks is a glory to behold. I find even with a fairly short period of FM in the early game my game improves significantly over one where I went planned instead of FM rather than only afterward for the pop boom.

One thing that has a large effect on the game is the static nature of the SE switch cost. What is a fairly stiff penalty in the early game (especially for Yang) becomes almost a non-factor later. With enough production it becomes worth your while to store up production and cash while running FM, and switching to Planned to finish / buy up whatever facility or SP you were working on.

In the final analysis, this game is so complex (as the posts above are an indication of) that there are numerous ways to play well. It's the reason so many intelligent people have been enjoying this game for so long.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by UnityScoutChopper
[rant, post 2 of 2]

Flubber:

Like most post of yours I've seen, this one is so good that it's hard to comment on it, especially since you seem like a kindred crypto-pinko soul. I'm not very flexible about switches; it takes a long time before I am confident I couldn't better spend those 40 or 80 EC on a better investment.

UCS

[/rant, post 2 of 2]

Thanks but "kindred cypto-pinko soul" ??? .

As for the cost of switching, you have to be coming at this from the perspective that you are in FM and see the value of that to start with. You sit there and buildup a stockpile of cash. Then one turn you switch to planned and rush some of the super-expensive stuff at a 10% reduced cost, saving the switch cost and more right there. The bottom line is that well-times switches can mean a FM player gets much of the industry benefit of the "planned" player. Yes the FM pays 10% more for the small stuff but all the big stuff can cost the same. Industry rating is, after all, only relevant when you finish something. The cost to switch back is easily met by the increased energy

If a pop boom is available, a short time in planned accomplishes all the growth you can manage so staying there seems redundent. I used to like being in a high growth setting all the time but I have since found that the FM energy lets me buy happiness and prepare better so that my growth is more controlled.


A lot of this is faction specific

Hive/Cult -- I never go FM and deidre cannot
but Domai--try to get me out of there early game !!! 2 content citizens means that even with b-drones, they only start appearing at size 2 and the extra energy is a godsend-- In the very early game it doubles ( approximately) my energy production from non-base squares.

and much is style-specific. If you are a builder that likes to turtle, FM makes more sense than for an explorer guy or momentum player

[UnityScoutChopper]

Flubber - "crypto-pinko" would be "a hidden fan of Planned". Though I'm not sure what was supposed to be "hidden" about it. Must have been one of those "past midnight" things.

---

I started an early-FM test game yesterday and reached 2220 or so this afternoon. The idea was to test "at least" a switch to FM "as early as makes any sense at all", using Lal as a faction that has more to gain from the rise in efficiency and less to lose from the lack of police than other factions. In other words, I figured "if anyone can gain from early FM, it's Lal." I switched around 2150, having run planned for 10 or 20 turns before that, delaying the switch somewhat because of an ongoing scout rush of the Angels. (They'd "managed" to miss Industrial Base and even repeatedly left bases entirely open.) Since then I left only once, when a switch to Planned was the only way to keep Aki from snatching the VW from my grasp; I switched back about four turns and a dead fungal tower later.
I took one other "experimental" metamove this game: I sacrificed the HGP for the WP. I'm still not sure if it's helped me or not; it's kind of hard to compare. It did help in setting up two early landbridges, but due to bad luck, neither bridge sped contact or expansion - one new area was horribly fungus-ridden, and the other kept sprouting native life during attempts to move into fungus, plus saw two 8-mindworm podpoppings, one of them by the Caretakers, making the region a forced training ground (and killing field) for my empath recon rovers. However, perhaps I would appreciate the WP more if I used condensors more - trouble is, I keep forgetting I can use specialists (I never use them normally unless I have drone problems), so I usually look at the quality of bases' usable squares and saying "nope." The one base where I do have two farmed condensored nuts is growing like a weed, though, and another base with a couple of condensor farms is also doing well. (I always assumed that the pollution from condensors would kill me, so this is perhaps the first game ever where I've really taken condensors seriously - especially since I only recently learned on this board that condensors, and nut specials for that matter, lift nut restrictions.) I'm not crawling them, as I'm too used to crawling for minerals only - old habits die hard.
Other SP's, in order: VW (very useful, since FM forces me to use Psych), PTS (feels less useful than it is when I run Planned), NA (built only because I had so flippin' many minerals at Headquarters, and almost sacrificed for the CDF - my intuition to build it anyway was VERY right), and PEG (snagged just a few turns back, a real nice boost).
I've been governor since the moment I had universal contact... not sure when, perhaps the late 2170's.
I was severely hampered in this game by the lack of tech trade partners - if it weren't for FM, I'd probably have awfully backwards tech, even after theft. I ended up bullying and robbing Roze for six to eight techs, including all three restriction lifters. I DID ask nicely before then, getting the usual cold shoulder.
The only humans on Planet besides the UN are Yang, Roze, Aki, and FungBoy; Yang and FungBoy are being their usual selves. Roze and I have been at war almost constantly because she had so much nice tech to steal until she started running out of bases under the UN/Usurper vise. Aki declared Vendetta on me for stealing during sunspots :-( when I thought it was undetectable. The game is going well except for the lack of trade and the metaproblem that I probably won't be able to vassalize Roze soon, or ever - the Usurpers are pounding her last base. Pretty satisfying results from FM. Thoughts:
* 20% psych seems to work for most purposes
* Planet's a b*tch
* The Neural Amp suddenly becomes useful under FM (fortunately, I have it) - lucky units with the sensor, base, trance, and Amp bonuses can survive 3+ attacks per turn, survive an attack even w/ 80% damage, etc.
* Did I mention that Planet's a b*tch?
* Even with Lal's -1 default EFF and not a single treaty in recent turns (unable to reinstate them due to sunspots), Wealth still shows the same teching rate, or rarely 1 turn longer, on the SE screen as Knowledge.
* Before Punishment spheres, far-flung bases with no infrastructure that can be lost to riots can be "sacrificed" to the Unhappiness Gods (unfortunately, I have been too lazy to set this up in practice)
* Under FM, the AV (not yet built, but definitely in the works) becomes a sort of "Women's Suffrage" wonder... perhaps a bigger benefit for FM than for planned
* FM's crappy benefit from the Longevity Vaccine argues against FM (permanent FM, that is) when you have dozens of bases no matter how you slice it.
* FM'ers need Green techs even more than Greenies do (empath rovers, trance garrisons, etc.)
* Demo-less FM is surprisingly useful, though Demo/FM soon becomes better
* I may be making a mistake keeping psych so low - while it keeps the short-term gains up, perhaps I should be trying for GA's - have been afraid to risk the increase so far, what with high "emergency spending" demands during war, but with 200+ income/turn, perhaps I should risk it now

All for now
UCS

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Flubber
In the very early game it doubles ( approximately) my energy production from non-base squares.

Actually, it should double your energy production period in the early game, since every point of economy above 0 increases base square production by one. Rivers and high elevation solar collectors notwithstanding, every square that's producing 0 or 1 energy (most squares you'll be harvesting at that stage) will be producing 1 or 2, and your base will jump from 1 energy to 2, or 3 if you've built tanks.

[CEO Aaron]

USC - Some commentary on your observations:

Yes, Lal's as good a FM candidate as anyone, though both Uni and Morgan are also good choices. Here's a couple of very instructive threads on the muscle that FM can give you in the early game:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70902

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74982

Originally posted by UnityScoutChopper
I took one other "experimental" metamove this game: I sacrificed the HGP for the WP. I'm still not sure if it's helped me or not; it's kind of hard to compare.

Although I like to get both HGP and WP, especially with Lal, I approve of your choice. Lal's going to be stuck in Demo for most of the game, so the invisible +50% extra crawlers will pay huge dividends by the end of the game.

Originally posted by UnityScoutChopper
However, perhaps I would appreciate the WP more if I used condensors more - trouble is, I keep forgetting I can use specialists

Condenser farms' real strength early on isn't the ability to use specialists, it's the ability to use your workers to harvest boreholes, while you use crawlers to keep your hungry workers hip deep in happy-meals.

Originally posted by UnityScoutChopper
* Planet's a b*tch

Yeah.

Originally posted by UnityScoutChopper
* Before Punishment spheres, far-flung bases with no infrastructure that can be lost to riots can be "sacrificed" to the Unhappiness Gods (unfortunately, I have been too lazy to set this up in practice)

When I'm establishing/conquering bases under FM, my habit is to show up with formers, crawlers and garrison in tow. This way I can plant my condenser farms, start crawling them asap, and use doctors/empaths to stabilize these bases. Once that's done, I'm rush-building basic facilities (tanks, commons, network nodes, creche), usually about once every 3 turns. In 10 turns or so, you've bootstrapped them adequately enough to get them off doctors and back into a more productive mode.

Originally posted by UnityScoutChopper
* Under FM, the AV (not yet built, but definitely in the works) becomes a sort of "Women's Suffrage" wonder... perhaps a bigger benefit for FM than for planned

SO true. Free Market + Ascetic Virtues + Brood Pits = -2 police. Congratulations, you can now brutalize whoever you wish, build all the interceptors, choppers and planetbusters you want, and just generally annoy the crap out of your neighbors.

Originally posted by UnityScoutChopper
* FM's crappy benefit from the Longevity Vaccine argues against FM (permanent FM, that is) when you have dozens of bases no matter how you slice it.

Well, that depends. If you're making a crawling energy to your capital in an effort to get the coveted every-turn science advance, the extra cash from LV doesn't hurt at all. On the other hand, there are better SPs to grab. I'd say that the feeble benefit argues more against LV than it does against FM. Oh, and if you're going to corner the energy market, you'll definitely be wanting the LV.

Originally posted by UnityScoutChopper
* FM'ers need Green techs even more than Greenies do (empath rovers, trance garrisons, etc.)

You can get by with trance garrisons for most of the early game, but since you'll be rushing along the Environmental Economics tree in the early game anyway, you're not to far from most of them anyway.

Originally posted by UnityScoutChopper
* Demo-less FM is surprisingly useful, though Demo/FM soon becomes better

Yep. Having developed my game playing Morgan, I tend to keep Democracy at arm's length until my mineral production is nice and solid.

Originally posted by UnityScoutChopper
* I may be making a mistake keeping psych so low - while it keeps the short-term gains up, perhaps I should be trying for GA's - have been afraid to risk the increase so far, what with high "emergency spending" demands during war, but with 200+ income/turn, perhaps I should risk it now

Being able to keep your bases in GA is one of the better benefits of running FM. Once I've got my Tree Farms built, I typically park my allocation at 30/30/40, which keeps everyone dancing in the streets with little or no intervention. Don't think of it like throwing away 30% of your energy production, think of it as spending 10% more than you would anyway (you can't really run FM for long without _any_ psych) to get +2 efficiency and +1 economy.

[UnityScoutChopper]

The Lal game is on pause now until I get the patience to "plow through" a terranx.exe fault that appeared at the end of 2222 (the second one this game). Am now experimenting with an early-FM Domai, still planned for a time late by many's standards I'm sure (late 2150's, after building the HGP and rushing a bit more infrastructure - only acquired IE in 2145 or so anyway and finished vassalizing Zak at that time as well). Once again I built the WP, although I'm not applying its power much yet - I've expanded so fast that I'm "happy" just to get the roads, forests, and occasional 2-1-x's in. This will be an odd game due to my ridiculous dominance - I had my first monsoon-jungle base in 10 turns, a huge continent to myself within 15 turns and a vassalized Zak (thanks to D:F from the Pirates and Impact tech stolen from Zak) within 50. One last odd point: I forgot to switch out of 0% science until 2120, oops.

I may be a fool to be delaying FM for the earlier HGP, as with around 20 bases, b-drones are starting to hit hard.

Extreme thanks to those who suggested on this board moving formers as high in the imaginary first-builds queue as possible - it's been a big help.

I'm one foil-turn away from a continent with a sprawled, high-basecount Miriam. The thought of a second vassal appeals to me. What do y'all suggest: a blitzkrieg in Planned using units built in FM, or a more puristic delay until brood pits and AV?

CEO:

Actually, it should double your energy production period in the early game, since every point of economy above 0 increases base square production by one. Rivers and high elevation solar collectors notwithstanding, every square that's producing 0 or 1 energy (most squares you'll be harvesting at that stage) will be producing 1 or 2, and your base will jump from 1 energy to 2, or 3 if you've built tanks.

Don't forget, however, that if one sprawls as I do (and I don't even sprawl that much anymore; I am no longer such a purist as to mark a fungus patch for removal just to get 4-spacing - you evil people have pushed me to the dark side on that point) most bases have can get 2 energy from every square worked even under planned, as long as they are small and formers are plentiful, because there usually IS a river or high-elevation1/1/0 available. What an ECON of +2 or higher really does on a more abstract level (besides the base-site energy that only it can bring) is to bring that same energy sooner, at a lower former load, and from a wider selection of squares (including easy-to-create forest squares).

Lal's going to be stuck in Demo for most of the game, so the invisible +50% extra crawlers will pay huge dividends by the end of the game.

Not sure what you mean by the +50% crawlers.

I'd say that the feeble benefit argues more against LV than it does against FM.

Not entirely - a consistently-Planned player with the HGP, VW, AV, and LV can boom to a very high base size with 0% psych. Try Deirdre with this combination (HGP optional) and you'll see what I mean - nobody can use Demo/Planned/AV/LV like Deirdre. (BTW, all in all, I have the feeling that very few factions do best in their "preferred" settings, as they tend to provide "too much of a good thing.") But it is quite competitive for all factions with better than -1 EFF.

You can get by with trance garrisons for most of the early game

...although this (almost unavoidable until CE) defensive approach robs one of part of FM's supposed cash advantage (podpearls) and support advantage (from theoretical garrisonless bases) over Planned in the early game, and needs the NA, very large garrisons, and/or empath units near high-min bases in the early midgame. The balance between the two truly is complex. As Sikander noted, it's a beautifully complex game... now about that AI...

Don't think of [high psych for GA's] like throwing away 30% of your energy production, think of it as spending 10% more than you would anyway (you can't really run FM for long without _any_ psych) to get +2 efficiency and +1 economy.

Just before terranx.exe started acting up in the Lal game, I tried the bump, with the 10% sacrifice assigned to EC's. It got me about 6 GA's out of 30 bases or so, most of them quite unstable, and a few doctor-removals. Maybe 40% would have been better.

Incidentally, once you are in GA, is the psych from the base's "original" energy output counted for continuing it, or the GA-boosted physch instead? And does a player have a grace period of one turn to make a GA continue after a base GA-booms? I'll check myself when I get that far with Domai, but if anyone knows offhand, it'd be handy.

CEO: I like to rotate factions, and so much though I like Morgan (especially now that he can boom), I don't play him much. But since you are the main one to run him a lot and run him on early nil-or-demo/FM/Wealth, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how it beats Morgan/nil-or-demo/Green/Wealth. We can I suppose rate Green as -1.5 growth in the early game (since not all growth from nil/FM's +0 can be used yet anyway due to expansion outstripping drone control), EFF +1.0 (corruption is still low - if used with the otherwise-crippling Demo this becomes more like +1.5 due to the synergistic effect of creating a Paradigm economy) and planet +1.5 (since the increase in mineral limits is not yet being used), and FM a +1.7 econ (no restriction lifting), -3 police (-2 once exploration becomes irrelevant), and -1.5 planet (only the combat half matters). Well, that's a lot of numbers - what's your experience with the "reality" of it? If you've ever played a "sprawled" and/or "huge" Morgan, look back especially to those games.

I only recently started got SMAX from the Overcats (can't use a credit card here for an e-Bay purchase), so I don't have much experience with a booming Morgan; this is what I'm especially interested in.

USC

[Mongoose]

Booming with GA can be a little tricky at Transcend difficulty if you're over the b-drone threshold. Applicable PSYCH in a base is only two times pop...any excess is wasted. (Same as CivII) When you get to the point that your first citizen is a drone, PSYCH will not be sufficient to induce a GA when your pop is an odd number. (Four Psych points are needed to make a drone a talent, half the citizens must be talents for GA. For 2*pop to equal or exceed 4*(1/2 pop(rounded up)), pop must be even. Example: At pop = 5, max PSYCH is 10, but 12 psych would be needed to get the third talent. Follow?)

Solutions: (in order of efficacy and efficiency)

1*) Build the HG! IMO, this is absolutely the most valuable SP (in SMAX, where GA induced booming is possible) for Morgan, Aki and Sven.

2) Plan ahead for your booms. Have extra colony pods available to add into odd-pop bases. Corollary - produce CPS at the bases that are booming and time the completion of he pods to coincide with the base's turning to odd pop, then add it back in the next turn.

3) Plan on a slow-motion boom, where the transition from odd pop to even is made by normal growth. This is costly, because your PSYCH allocation must be kept abnormaly high for an extended period of time.

4) Boom before you exceed the b-drone threshold.


In answer to your questions:

Yes, the extra energy/square from GA is used to calculate PSYCH output. Keep in mind the limits described above.

No, you do not get a grace turn to correct your energy allocation if the base outgrows its GA. You must plan on enough PSYCH for the next pop level if you wish to sustain a boom in this fashion.


Addendum: The limit on PSYCH is why I generally eschew long term use of GAs, CEOs preference to the contrary notwithstanding. I find that the waste from my most productive core bases far exceeds the gain form those on the periphery. If you need GROWTH, or need to sustain a boom, fine...just realize what you're paying for it.

[Sikander]

I find using specialists to be my preferred means to keep a base in GA, as it can be tailored for each base. This can add up to a huge savings, especially in contrast to using 30% psych. Of course an early GA pop boom will probably require a small psych outlay of 10-30% to get started, but once it gets rolling be sure to have plenty of crawled condensor / farms and use doctors / empaths liberally until you max out the pop.