2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders

[Maniac]

I've got an informative question regarding atrocities.
Current plan is to obliterate Morgan Industries, and thus commit an atrocity.
Now I'm wondering - don't know if this has been decided yet - shall we try to use atrocities as little as possible, or much as it suits us? And if the answer is "as much as it suits us", should we start using them now already, or only after a succesful PTS Raid?

Reason I ask is, if there would be a majority for using them immediately, we could nerve staple Gythium Harbour and Fort Superiority next year already.


In case we wouldn't use atrocities, what will we do with Gythium Harbour?

It was scheduled for the crawler to be cashed in this year to hurry production.
But what should we build?
Two major options I see would be a recreation commons or a cruiser transport.

Building a recreation commons in GH would allow us to put two doctors to the field in one of the following bases: Sparta Command (size 3), Gythium Harbour (size 4), Sector Cratersouth (size 3 MY '57), Sector Craterwest (size 3 in '58). Without the rec commons we would have to appoint three doctors in a few years (while one doctor if we do build a rec commons). Where the doctors would be needed, would depend where we place our Ogres (which have the non-lethal methods special ability).

Then the crawler which will finish this year in Fort Buster could be used to hurry a cruiser transport in GH MY 2157. So we'd still get the transport, only one year later.


The second option would be to forego the rec commons for now, and build a cruiser transport already this year. Having the trannie one year earlier wouldn't make that much of a difference as far as I can see: we don't have much to transport yet. In my opinion the big difference would be that we could use the crawler, that is used to hurry the cruiser transport in the previous scenario, to hurry eg a missile marine or X missile squad. Then we could transport the missile infantry to Minas Tirith. We don't know where there are Hive forces in our neighbourhood, but who knows having one unit a couple turns earlier in Minas Tirith could mean the difference between survival or destruction of that base.

So to summarize the above (as far as I can see it), what's more important? Having two extra workers on the field, or having an extra unit in Minas Tirith a couple turns earlier.


Talking about Minas Tirith's defense, should we upgrade the commando hoplite there to an impact infantry (or even X impact infantry?)? Or wait with such measures until we actually see any Hive troops?


There will be seven formers that require new orders this year. Two of them (those near Messena) are more or less already planned: build a farm S of Messena. But what with the others? There are two near Vladivostok, and three near the Laconian valley.

Options could include:

• build mines and forests here and there, so crawlers have a good tile to harvest
• building a borehole
• build some sensor arrays around where they currently are
• move south to build a road to Minas Tirith, and build some sensors there.

Any preference?

[Modo44]

Re: 2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders

Originally posted by Maniac
I've got an informative question regarding atrocities.
Current plan is to obliterate Morgan Industries, and thus commit an atrocity.
Now I'm wondering - don't know if this has been decided yet - shall we try to use atrocities as little as possible, or much as it suits us? And if the answer is "as much as it suits us", should we start using them now already, or only after a succesful PTS Raid?

I'd wait with atrocities until we raid Morgan. This way we can look nice to everyone until that very turn. If we Nerve Staple, and use other things, we'll get into a diplomatic hole pretty quickly IMO. Also, this could warn Morgan, earlier than planned. For now, we can use our integrity, and I think we should.

Originally posted by Maniac
In case we wouldn't use atrocities, what will we do with Gythium Harbour?

Bring the defender to Minas Tirith earlier. I hate to say this, because I like building things, but we really don't know what Yang can come up with. At least some preparations need to be made ASAP.

Originally posted by Maniac
Talking about Minas Tirith's defense, should we upgrade the commando hoplite there to an impact infantry (or even X impact infantry?)? Or wait with such measures until we actually see any Hive troops?

Can Yang come out of the blue (i.e. attack without being seen the turn before)? If not, we can wait until we see his units.

Formers: if we can bring 3 or more together in a turn or two, then a Borehole would be the way to go. Otherwise, and for other Formers - plant Forest.

[Zeiter]

I just want to say, if we're going to start using nerve gas fairly frequently, then we're going to have to deal with some fairly serious mind worms. Every gas attack reduces your clean mineral count by 5 (ditto for base obliterations.) Now, I think this will be great as far as ECs go, but we need to make sure that we get enough units in place beforehand.

And I agree, wait until after the Morgan attack to nerve staple.

[Googlie]

Re: 2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders

Originally posted by Maniac
I've got an informative question regarding atrocities.
Current plan is to obliterate Morgan Industries, and thus commit an atrocity.

And obliterating a just-captured base ranks as more serious an atrocity than obliterating one's own base

Now I'm wondering - don't know if this has been decided yet - shall we try to use atrocities as little as possible, or much as it suits us? And if the answer is "as much as it suits us", should we start using them now already, or only after a succesful PTS Raid?

I'd say use them as little as possible. Our reputation will certainly take a hit, but we can always argue "it was for the good of the game to remove Morgan's winning edge". We lose ten turns of fairly lucrative commerce income. Nerve stapling will solve a short term problem but will extend sanctions in blocks of ten year periods. If we believe that commerce is unimportant to us, and are prepared to run out the game with none, then nerve stapling, X-waepons and, ultimately PB's are therefore in play

Reason I ask is, if there would be a majority for using them immediately, we could nerve staple Gythium Harbour and Fort Superiority next year already.

In case we wouldn't use atrocities, what will we do with Gythium Harbour?

It was scheduled for the crawler to be cashed in this year to hurry production. But what should we build?
Two major options I see would be a recreation commons or a cruiser transport.

Building a recreation commons in GH would allow us to put two doctors to the field in one of the following bases: Sparta Command (size 3), Gythium Harbour (size 4), Sector Cratersouth (size 3 MY '57), Sector Craterwest (size 3 in '58). Without the rec commons we would have to appoint three doctors in a few years (while one doctor if we do build a rec commons). Where the doctors would be needed, would depend where we place our Ogres (which have the non-lethal methods special ability).

I'd go for the rec commons at GH. (Another option would be to change to POLICE - lose our fundy probe bonus but as Maniac pointed out elsewhere, with Polysoft we have a better probe rating now anyway. Although POLICE would be more effective after we get Int Int and can equip some garrisons with non-lethal attributes)

Then the crawler which will finish this year in Fort Buster could be used to hurry a cruiser transport in GH MY 2157. So we'd still get the transport, only one year later.

The second option would be to forego the rec commons for now, and build a cruiser transport already this year. Having the trannie one year earlier wouldn't make that much of a difference as far as I can see: we don't have much to transport yet.

In my opinion the big difference would be that we could use the crawler, that is used to hurry the cruiser transport in the previous scenario, to hurry eg a missile marine or X missile squad. Then we could transport the missile infantry to Minas Tirith. We don't know where there are Hive forces in our neighbourhood, but who knows having one unit a couple turns earlier in Minas Tirith could mean the difference between survival or destruction of that base.

That's what I think we should do (hurry a missile marine - after getting SFF from Lal) - and hope, as well, that the Hermes impending podpop gets us a completed Skanky (or are we planning to change production to a supercrawler beforehand?)

So to summarize the above (as far as I can see it), what's more important? Having two extra workers on the field, or having an extra unit in Minas Tirith a couple turns earlier.

The latter

Talking about Minas Tirith's defense, should we upgrade the commando hoplite there to an impact infantry (or even X impact infantry?)? Or wait with such measures until we actually see any Hive troops?

I'd wait.

I'd like to know what's fdfamaging his defenders in the 3 bases on "our" territory. Native wildlife? Or Gaians?

There will be seven formers that require new orders this year. Two of them (those near Messena) are more or less already planned: build a farm S of Messena. But what with the others? There are two near Vladivostok, and three near the Laconian valley.

Options could include:

• build mines and forests here and there, so crawlers have a good tile to harvest
• building a borehole
• build some sensor arrays around where they currently are
• move south to build a road to Minas Tirith, and build some sensors there.

Any preference?

Sensors. That defensive bonus will tide us over until we get perims

And boreholes with what's left (see how productive Fort Superiority - our impending HQ of our Air Force - is with 2 being worked. It's an instabuild base.

[Modo44]

Re: Re: 2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders

Originally posted by Googlie
I'd like to know what's fdfamaging his defenders in the 3 bases on "our" territory. Native wildlife? Or Gaians?

Or his police rating, and needs. Economy set to Planned + Police State gives Yang 3 units as police. It is by far the best choice for the Hive, so even the AI might realize that.

[Snoddasmannen]

Re: Re: 2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders

Originally posted by Googlie
Sensors. That defensive bonus will tide us over until we get perims

And boreholes with what's left (see how productive Fort Superiority - our impending HQ of our Air Force - is with 2 being worked. It's an instabuild base.

Sensors eh, do you really think so? Who are we defending against? We could use a sensor at Minas Tirith I guess, where the Hive will be pounding at us, but other than that, why not build some mines or forest so that our crawlers have something to crawl.

[sentry33]

Re: Re: 2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders

Perhaps only way of getting involved is starting to share thoughts.. so there:

Originally posted by Googlie
That's what I think we should do (hurry a missile marine - after getting SFF from Lal) - and hope, as well, that the Hermes impending podpop gets us a completed Skanky (or are we planning to change production to a supercrawler beforehand?)

Trying never hurts (we can revert at no cost if podpop does not complete production as we hoped)

Either supercrawler (can be used for defense as good as Skanky's Sileni - for few turns at least) or an expensive multi-purpose military unit if we need reinforcements somewhere (4~-3-2, 4x-3-2, 4-3tr-2, or synthmetal variants if we are leaving plasma unprototyped)

[Modo44]

2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders

Welcome to Sparta, sentry33. I'm resisting the urge to write some cryptic messages in Polish here.

Originally posted by sentry33
Trying never hurts (we can revert at no cost if podpop does not complete production as we hoped)

Good idea.

[Snoddasmannen]

Yes I agree with sentry33 and modo, try for a supercrawler first, that'll be of more value than a military unit I would think.

[Maniac]

Re: Re: 2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders

Originally posted by Modo44
Can Yang come out of the blue (i.e. attack without being seen the turn before)? If not, we can wait until we see his units.

Depends from which direction he attacks I guess. There is a straight line of fungus spanning from Hive territory all the way to Minas Tirith. That might be risky of course.

Originally posted by Zeiter
I just want to say, if we're going to start using nerve gas fairly frequently, then we're going to have to deal with some fairly serious mind worms. Every gas attack reduces your clean mineral count by 5 (ditto for base obliterations.)

Are you sure? AFAIK it's only planet busters that reduce your clean minerals by five. All other atrocities are safe IIRC. Well, relatively safe. I've heard stories of people using nerve gas all the time, and when they reached 1000 years of sanction or so, Planet suddenly went berzerk on them.

In a game of mine I once used nerve gas regularly to exterminate my Usurper and Caretaker neighbours, and after a while I always got a sea level raise from just one fungal pop, even though I hadn't had (m)any pops in the years before. My # of clean minerals weren't reduced though because of the nerve gas use.

Unfortunately I'm unsure if it's that (no clean mineral reduction, but an instant sea level raise) what people talk about about Planet going berzerk because of nerve gas, or if nerve gas effectively caused their eco-damage to go through the roof.

Originally posted by Googlie
I'd wait. [with hurrying a MT hoplite to an impact infantry]

Sounds good. Would it be ok though to keep 60 or 70 credits in reserve at all times, so we can do an emergency upgrade?


Btw, I realized yesterday, while testplaying a 2156 and 2157 turn that I made a stupid mistake. I assumed that we had to make a choice between hurrying a rec commons and a cruiser transport, or in a second option hurrying a cruiser transport and a missile marine.

But we'll only get SFF MY 2158 at the earliest, which means we have three years of production. So if we wanted to, we could:
MY 2156: set production to a rec commons, and hurry it with some 60 credits.
MY 2157: set production to a transport cruiser. Cash in the first crawler from FB. Hurry a bit more with credits if necessary.
MY 2158: we'll hopefully have SFF now => set production to a missile marine and hurry it with the second FB crawler.

Then we can transport a missile marine to MT MY 2159. Or if no Hive troops are in range, first let it pay a visit to a monolith for an upgrade to elite.

[Zeiter]

I'm pretty sure that extensive use of nerve gas agitates the mind worms. I had a game where I used about 30 gas attacks in the span of 3 turns, and my ecodamage shot up above 200 in all of my bases.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Zeiter
I'm pretty sure that extensive use of nerve gas agitates the mind worms. I had a game where I used about 30 gas attacks in the span of 3 turns, and my ecodamage shot up above 200 in all of my bases.

Ouch, that must have hurt!


Some further suggestions:


In Fort Superiority there are currently two doctors appointed to turn one b-drone into a content worker. Therefore I was wondering, how about turning one worker into a technician? As specialists don't need drone control, both doctors could also be turned into technicians. As for production for this year, how about a colony pod? That will reduce FS nutrient shortages, and we could found a base at the same time of capturing the PTS = two free workers!


Worker, support and garrison relocations in case a rec commons is built in GH:

SC2: 1-2-1 river forest worker to new 3-1-0 farm
GH: doctor to the river forest

Shrek moves from GH to SC4.

SC4 scout patrol moves to SC2.

OA hoplite moves to SC1 and rehomes. SC1 hoplite moves in opposite direction.

Hurry rec commons with 60 credits.

[Modo44]

Definately make Colony Pod(s) in Fort Superiority, if we can't use enough police units.

[Snoddasmannen]

The turn is up! The turn is up!
Did the Morgans beef up their defenses?
I'll be at home tonight, anybody up for a turnchat?

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
Did the Morgans beef up their defenses?
I'll be at home tonight, anybody up for a turnchat?

They are prototyping a plasma armored foil at MM - and their ship commissioend there is now out and about: