2141 - Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders

[Googlie]

The start of a new chapter in Sparta history - the turn-a-thread era

[Maniac]

Do I have to reply here to the latest posts in the game discussion thread?

For now, I'd say we're safe for at least 4-6 turns. But we'll know a lot more after that than we do now.
In PBEM's I usually put at least two infantry probes in all costal bases (at least three if playing the UoP). I have back up probes in my interior bases.

I'd put 2 infantry probes (I named them "Boy Scouts") in each of our coastal (or 1 tile inland) bases, and a rover probe team in every other base - ready to rush into the breach if we get probe-raped

I agree with that setup. But what's the estimated time frame to achieve that level of probe defence? Is it something to be achieved fully some time later when we have a high production, or something to be done immediately asap, taking priority over all other build orders like formers, crawlers, scout patrols, colony pods...

Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader
Forest and forget, till we have the restriction lifted. Farms are a waste of time. You have to terraform the square again later on. I hate having to do that when I can be doing something that will give me turn-advantage. But that's me, and strictly my own opinion. I hardly ever build any farms.

Zeiter's read my mind on this one. I think the extra growth and turn advantage we've gained by building those farms will be greater than the turn advantage we'll loose later on by having to reterraform those tiles.

Personally I'm not a heavy follower of any terraforming strategy, though I lean heavily towards forests. But even after getting tree farms I still mix forests (and boreholes) together with some farmed and condensered tiles (even non-nutrient tiles); as to pop boom to maximum size, every base needs to have a few 2+ nut tiles (because some citizens normally need to be converted to specialists for drone control reasons, no longer allowing them to fulfill their own nut production needs).

I'll download your Challenge turn in the weekend, when I'm at home.

No. You have two units in Vladivostock currently. A scout patrol, and a probe. They are both on "H" for hold. I'm asking that you put one or the other - don't matter which one - on "L" for sentry.

I also always use "L" instead of "H" (which I never use). That way you're automatically alerted and awakened when a rival unit has passed near one of your units.

Originally posted by Googlie
See pic below

Thanks!
I see we only got one extra b-drones, in Vladivostok. Lucky we sent an escort along with the CP.
When we established our seventh base Fort Buster, we also only got one extra b-drone.
This means we've been rather lucky. Our bureaucracy limit is 6, which means that from founding bases 7 to 12, we get on average two extra b-drones per base somewhere in our empire. Until base 12, when every base will have one b-drone.
The downside of our luck now is of course that as we establish two more bases, the chance to get a higher number of b-drones increases dramatically, overwhelming our police forces. We can expect ten extra b-drones from the next four bases we found, and thus most probably around five drones for our next two already planned. So we need to be prepared!

Do we still want to buy the Angels' commlink from Yang? Maybe the Gaians have it (we should ask, at least)

Personally I'd say yes. When we first met the Hive, we were able to buy the commlinks. However we didn't use that window of opportunity because we needed the money for other stuff like switching to Planned and buying a tech IIRC. But then the window closed and Yang became unwilling to sell us the commlinks. Now he's willing again, I'd say we should take this opportunity, before he changes his mind once again. Otherwise it could perhaps take another decade or so (or never) before we get another shot, certainly since Yang won't seem to make contact with Lal soon after all.


I'd love to reply to more stuff, but unfortunately I need to hurry to the book sales, and then to another class.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader
Allright!
Here's where I've been known to shine.

Let me get my "diplomatic kit" together!

Lemme see...

Impact rifle - check. Synthmetal body armor - check. Laser carbine - check. Concussion grenades - check. Daggers - check. And, oh yeah; a pen for the others to sign the surrender documents.

Okay, I'm ready!
Lemme know if you need my services.

That's the true Spartan spirit!

Lot's of good suggestions and ideas. But: We can't do everything at once! We have to grow the faction. Here's what I think we need (more or less in order):

- We need more bases.
- We need more colony pods.
- We need more bases.
- We need more formers.
- We need more bases.
- We need more probes.
- We need more bases.
- We need to get bigger.

I agree expansion by colonization is one of the best investments possible.
But consider the following:

A new base right now has the following investment cost:
a CP (30 mins)
two scout patrols (20 mins) to counter the 2 new b-drones
That's a total of 50 mins.

The return of the investment of 50 mins is an extra square worked: let's say the new base tile produces 2-1-1.

Now have a look at some other possible investments. Our non-crater bases are working a whole bunch of unterraformed rolling&rainy tiles which only produce 2-1-0.
If we built some extra formers, we could increase the production of those squares to 3-1-2. That would take 12 (farm/SC/road)terraforming turns (and thus 12 mins support) to get an increase of 1-0-2. Or alternatively we could plant some 1-2-1 forests. In any case, when looking at the cost/benefit-ratio, at the moment investing our minerals into terraforming our already worked tiles seems to be more lucrative than investing our minerals into working more unterraformed tiles (by building new bases).

But if we get IndAut & EcoEng soon, there's an even better investment! Crawlers on rocky mined tiles!
Investment cost:
a supply crawler (30 mins)
a mine & road (11 mins support cost)
In return you get 4 minerals/year!
That's currently the investment that pays itself back most quickly I believe.

That's why I would propose, after our two already planned bases are established, to halt colonization for a while, and first focus on building formers and crawlers to utilize those nearby rocky tiles around our eastern bases. (Besides of course building the necessary scout patrol, probe and Zak Tech Acquisition Expedition forces).

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Maniac
Personally I'd say yes (buying the Angels commlink from Yang. When we first met the Hive, we were able to buy the commlinks. However we didn't use that window of opportunity because we needed the money for other stuff like switching to Planned and buying a tech IIRC. But then the window closed and Yang became unwilling to sell us the commlinks. Now he's willing again, I'd say we should take this opportunity, before he changes his mind once again. Otherwise it could perhaps take another decade or so (or never) before we get another shot, certainly since Yang won't seem to make contact with Lal soon after all.

If so, then let's hammer out what our diplo position is going to be towards them well in advance so that we are not scrabbling like we are with the Gaians (admittedly I didn't move R-112 until half-way through the timelimit thus the mad panic to try and get a time extension - never did get a reply from Drogue or method - what's the use of having incative Mods?????

So let's be prepared before I ask Yang in 2141 for the Angels' number

G.

[Googlie]

Here's what I've gleaned from the threads - and am suggesting (in the absence of anything to glean):

Movement Orders

• SCC Hunter (West of Sector Craterwest, at the newly discovered spit of land) : move west and then south to loop along the coastline of the landmass to its west and then return just north of Socializing Tunnels and Great Collective to link with the trannie carrying new probe teams
• SCC Invincible to leave UN Planning Authority Bay and head north-west-south towards the twin peaks at 58:60 and 60:68
• Cratersouth's Colony Pod to disembark and found Minas Tirith on 58:28 in 2142
• Trannie loops north and east and loads the AA to take it to Gythium Harbour
• Rover escorting AA retraces steps to be garrison for Minas Tirith
• The midcrater former moves thru Fort Buster and past mineral special to continue the road to 53:11 (Base site for Craterwest's next turn Colony Pod)
• Warwag will head for Sector Craterwest for defensive garrisoning (Craterwest's scout will accompany the Colony Pod to its new base site)
• Rover that was heading to pick up the AA will continue on to Minas Tirith to give tag-team capability to the base there
• Both probe teams board Vladivostok's Trannie and head east north east (where the Uni Trannie and scout came from) to search for intelligent life on Chiron

New Build Orders for 2141:

The following bases will be in stockpile energy mode when we open the 2141 turn:

• Vladivostok
• Sector CraterSouth
• Sector CraterWest

Scout patrols? Or Probes (cheaper infantry-chassis Boy Scouts for the 2 inland crater bases perhaps?)

Miscellaneous

• Buy the Angels' commlink from Yang for 25 ec's
• Any rush-builds for 2141? (eg, the 2 rover probes being built at, respectively, Fort Bster and Olympus Academy)

G.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
New Build Orders for 2141:

The following bases will be in stockpile energy mode when we open the 2141 turn:

• Vladivostok

One option is immediately start on another trannie, at least if we want to execute a raid on Zakharov. Then we could land with more than two units at once.

[Googlie]

That's a good suggestion.

An invasion force of 3 Scout rovers (upgraded to impact rovers) and an impact infantryman would be pretty unstoppable (I'm assuming we don't see our 2 Ogres in an invasion role - even although they are awesome SP material when damaged below their useful threshold of around 50%)

(That's assuming we can persuade Yang to swiftly send R-112 home)

[Googlie]

If we get Ind Auto in 2141 ................. what then?

Do we embark on a crash course of crawler building?

Maybe it's time for base specialization, somwhat along the lines of:

Gythium Harbour and Vladivostok - naval units (gunfoils, trannies, Navy Seals and seaformers

Santiago Citadel - military units (scout patrols until further notice)

Olympus Academy - crawlers (for itself and for the other bases)

Sparta Command - defensive infantry-chassis probes (Boy Scouts) - until every base has at least 2

Sector Cratersouth and Sector Craterwest -offensive (rover-chassis) probes (but both are 3 nuts per turn surplus producers so will be expanding pop more rapidly than the other bases - could be colony pod generators (and we could employ a migration strategy - up to the habdome limit - by sending CP's to other bases to add to their populations)

Fort Buster - formers (primarily) and crawlers

Minas Tirith - Rush another trannie (so that we'll have 2 on each seaboard for probe and invasion flexibility) or a former to get a forest on the 59:31 low, flat, rainy, mineral bonus tile that'll be inside its base radius.

Messen Bay (new base founded in 2142 southwest of the Messenian Plains) or Scapa Flow (or whatever we call that next base) could rush a trannie if we go with a former for Minas Tirith

Junta thoughts?

[Zeiter]

An invasion force of 3 Scout rovers (upgraded to impact rovers) and an impact infantryman would be pretty unstoppable

Yes, once we get infiltration, our lightning fast elite forces will be able to pounce on the weakest Uni targets, and 4 offensive units should be adequate for a Uni takeover, assuming we don't get our rovers probed away. Do we need to consider probe defenders for our invasion force? I guess we'll know more once we have Zak infiltrated.

If we get Ind Auto in 2141 ................. what then?

We'll need to rushbuild a couple of formers, as well as crawlers at OA.

Gythium Harbour and Vladivostok - naval units (gunfoils, trannies, Navy Seals and seaformers

Would a Morgan invasion be at all feasible at this point? I'm afraid that all of our precious units would get probed away without offensive probe defenders accompanying the invasion force. Thus, I think any invasions on human opponents will have to wait until after crawlers (although we can always threaten them).

Thus, I see little to no point in building another transport, laser foil, or any sea formers at GH. Although I do think navy seals would be a good investment, so I suggest we build those at GH.

As for Vladivostok, another trannie would indeed be useful, although it will be some turns before we're ready to invade Zak, so we can build the next trannie at a leisurely, un-rushed pace.

Santiago Citadel - military units (scout patrols until further notice)

Yes, scout patrols with impact rovers and probe teams as needed.

Sparta Command - defensive infantry-chassis probes (Boy Scouts) - until every base has at least 2

Yes, and we especially need to get Messan Bay manned very quickly.

Minas Tirith - Rush another trannie (so that we'll have 2 on each seaboard for probe and invasion flexibility) or a former to get a forest on the 59:31 low, flat, rainy, mineral bonus tile that'll be inside its base radius.

Definitely a former. Like I said, I don't see another trannie as being very useful over there. First we can build a former, and while that former is planting forests and stuff we can build more crawlers there. And yep, same goes for Fort Buster.

Sector Cratersouth and Sector Craterwest -offensive (rover-chassis) probes (but both are 3 nuts per turn surplus producers so will be expanding pop more rapidly than the other bases - could be colony pod generators (and we could employ a migration strategy - up to the habdome limit - by sending CP's to other bases to add to their populations)

This is why social psych could be useful pretty soon. Well, we still need to populate the Messenian Plains, but once we have that accomplished, we can focus on probe teams and hopefully soon rec commons.

Any rush-builds for 2141? (eg, the 2 rover probes being built at, respectively, Fort Bster and Olympus Academy

I'm thinking we need to conserve our ECs for crawler and former rushing, so I'd say no to that.

Buy the Angels' commlink from Yang for 25 ec's

Yes, but first let's see who's living up there to the NW near SCC Hunter. If we don't spot the Data Angels by next turn up there, we can go ahead and buy the commlink from Yang at the end of the turn.

These are all just my opinions, of course.

Whew, there's a lot of stuff to keep track of now! The game's getting involved now.

[KrysiasKrusader]

Originally posted by Zeiter

Whew, there's a lot of stuff to keep track of now! The game's getting involved now.

Yea, there is. I'm going to have to start taking pen and paper notes. And this is another thread that I have to answer to...

I dunno if I can type all of this tonight...

[Googlie]

Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader
I'm going to have to start taking pen and paper notes.

It's a nuisance that in these private forums we can't "show a printable version" - when you click on that option it boots you into a "you are nor authorized" message.

I wonder if an appeal to MarkG or DanQ might enable printing (I know that we can copy and paste to Word or Notepad, then painstakingly edit out all the logos and graphics and other bumph, but the printer version is so much cleaner - try and compare both on the Public forums if you're not convinced as I am)

[Maniac]

Re the hurry proposals, how much cash do we still have right now?
I see we're only gaining 1 credit a year right now as we've switched back to 60% labs.
Upgrading a laser rover to impact costs 50c, and a scout rover 60c, so if we want to send two or three rovers as our initial invasion force to Zak, that leaves little cash for other stuff.

[Googlie]

Re: next base (Messen Bay/Rio Grande)

Perhaps, given my surmisings here we should thinlk of elsewhere for that next base.

Here are some suggestions (one of which involves using the trannie):

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Maniac
Re the hurry proposals, how much cash do we still have right now?
I see we're only gaining 1 credit a year right now as we've switched back to 60% labs.

Yeah - I overlooked that. I think I was verifying KK's calcs of how long it'd take us to get Ecol Eng on our own (altogether a sloppy turn on my part - got really distracted by that Gaian mindworm meeting)

Next turn we'll have:

carryforward of 142 ec's
+7 generated
-1 for maintenance of our Command center
-3 for Yang's loan
-2 for Zak's loan
+3 for Craterwests stockpile energy
+2 for Cratersouth's stockpile
+2 for Vladivostok's stockpile

Totalling 150 in the kitty

Upgrading a laser rover to impact costs 50c, and a scout rover 60c, so if we want to send two or three rovers as our initial invasion force to Zak, that leaves little cash for other stuff.

We're still 3 turns away from prototyping that Impact infantryman, and I'll reset the sliders to 60% economy which will double our gross income from 7 to 14 per turn. Plus we'll get a few extra from yet to be completed units' stockpile energy

I'd also like to rush the former at Minas Tirith, and possibly the probe teams currently in production, depending on our finances (I'll have a go at updating the Simulater later today)

[Zeiter]

Yes, I suppose we should focus on energy now. It would be nice to get EcoEng as soon as possible, but we've got to think of our Uni invasion too.