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Seeing that there are a lot of new players on the forum these days, I thought I'd reintroduce an old topic for conversation, specifically the Armored Probe Team. These guys are great additions to your army, especially for you builder types during your vulnerable phase (mid to late 2100s while running wealth etc.).
A short list of their good attributes:
1) They cost no support.
2) They defend as well as regular army troops, but are not negatively effected by SE morale.
3) They are cheap if you build them on Infantry chassis.
4) They are still probe teams, which means adding them to a garrison protects you from both conventional and probe attacks.
5) They can be given special abilities like Trance and ECM (both of these for free!).
I build scads of these guys when I am worried about harrassment or invasion by the AI while I am busy pop-booming and / or running Wealth. I don't want to build regular forces then because they cost support, and troops built under wealth suck even after you have switched to another SE choice. Armored (Infantry) probe teams allow me to beef up my security cheaply and effectively, and can even be stationed outside of my territory while I am running FM, without causing drones.
Questions, comments, better ideas?
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Posted by MariOne on 09-12-2000 10:20:
I grab the opportunity to add my 100 Lit. (=0.05$)
- I thought once to have been able to designate one as defender, in a scenario test about armoring non-combats. Well, I must have dreamt, as I was never able to reproduce it (and of course I was so dumb to forget to save that test!). SO:
Con:
- they can't be designated as primary defenders
- the game will pick a green 1-1-1 as defender even if you have an Elite PT-3-1 stacked with it
- when stacked and attacked, they would die (all of them!) just as probes, they won't just take collateral as normal combat units
- the above because their armor makes them non-combat only when *defending* (in first person) against a conventional attack (i.e. when they're not stacked with combat units)
- under every other respect they'll be treated as non-combat, for instance they won't move on the turn they dropped, they won't drop inside an ally's basezones unless Pacted...
Questions:
I might kick up a new test for that, but maybe you already know it:
- will armored probes be effective as police?
- will they create drones when away under pacifism?
- they won't be able to attack
- they won't be able to invade&conquer bases
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Posted by Sikander on 09-12-2000 14:36:
MariOne,
Thank you for a very good point about Armored Probe Teams not being effective as stacked defenders. I only stack them in bases with other regular units (to provide probe defense), so I forgot all about that. I also use them (unstacked) to guard my frontiers (they do have a ZOC). Though they can't capture an empty base, they can mind control a base full of defenders, which a normal military unit cannot do. Another amusing thing about them is that they ignore enemy ZOCs, which can be useful in a shooting war, or when you are jockeying for terrain with another faction that you are not at war with. They do not seem to serve as police, though when you think about it they probably should serve as a sort of 'secret police'.
Armored Probe Teams make great border guards, as they defend well (when not stacked ) and can bribe enemy units which approach too closely, which is something a conventional 1-X-1 Infantry unit cannot do. Obviously they cannot be mind controlled, though they are potentially vulnerable to probe attack. They won't cause drones when you are running FM, which means you can station them forward of your official frontier, and they cost no minerals to support. While they are not a panacea, they outperform regular military units at some tasks, and do it more cheaply unless you have a high support rating.
*********************************************
Posted by Ogie Oglethorpe on 10-12-2000 06:09:
Ahh one of my favs the armored Probe team, a must for any Morgan Player.
In answer to MariO, No police effects either.
But look at the benefits for Morgan,
Clean Unit (biggest benefit)
Can be upgraded to Trance (needed to prevent Worm rape on his puny size bases)
With energy to burn (counter subversion is very likely)
Assuming FM/Wealth Morgan sits down a new base and wants some immediate security (as opposed to an immediate former). Infantry probe team (sans armor) gets rushed on turn one. (19 energy I think). Next turn PT gets upgarded to synth (or greater) trance. This high morale trance unit ensures worm protection vs. a very green 1-1-1 trance scout unit that cost Morgan his one and only supported unit.
The one dies they all die phenomena ensures that if your going to be building these you'll neeed to carpet your territory with them and do NOT stack them.
Finally one of the biggest downsides is their vulnerability to standard PT attack. Just suppose for a second that you've built in later game an Infantry PT w/ Nuetronium armor and ECM to boot. All it takes to defeat that is standard PT combat of which that armor and special has no bearing. AS an attacker I'll take the loss of a standard PT in terms of lost mins/energy vs. the upgraded one.
*********************************************
Posted by Helium Pond on 13-12-2000 11:57:
Wait--the SE morale effects don't count for probe teams, even when they're acting as combat units? Really?
*********************************************
Posted by Ogie Oglethorpe on 14-12-2000 21:44:
Helium,
I think what is being referred to with respect to SE choice is that probe team morale is not dependent on SE choices affecting morale but SE choices that affect probe rating (i.e. Fundy). Couple that with inherent techs that increase PT morale such as polymorphic software, net nodes(?) and others and one can run wealth or other SE chocies that result in terrible morale ratings and still churnout elite PT units.
So as an example one could choose fundy/FM/wealth/eudi (as a theoritcal point) and be churning out -3 morale conventional units or more than likely churnout elite PTs.
And yes that elite morale rating would be calculated in 'normal' combat odds.
This is my understanding of how it is supposed to work, but I have been known to be wrong. What I don't know or understand is 'normal' facilites help PT morale as well. For example does a command center increase PT morale? I'm almost positive the Bioenhancement Center does.
Finally a little more on why this is a perfect fit for Morgan,
Since it behooves Morgan to run FM/wealth this little armored probe strategem is just what's needed because it's the perfect 'get around' for his weaknesses.
Support - units are clean
Morale - PT units are higher morale than what is delivered under wealth conditions
Police - Who cares b/c you running FM where you can't have police anyway.
Warring - PT are allowed to go outside borders without pacifism drone issues.
Downsides - PT's die by the handfuls so you really need to have them one per tile without any conventional units.
Your S.O.L. if up against stacked units where you can't subvert. Your only hope in this case is that your armor holds up. Although an elite armored ECM PT in a bunker with a sensor is a marvelous thing to behold as you see wave upon wave of speeders being chewed up but the not so artificial intelligence.
*********************************************
Lt-Col Maniac Date Posted: 26/06/2004 10:59 AM
Do you suggest that we build armoured probe teams ourselves? Or is this thread to have some countermeasures ready when we see a few of those little fellows in the Angel or Morganite army?
"I love the smell of nerve gas in the morning." -- Pedro 'Maniac' Riveira
*********************************************
Googlie Date Posted: 26/06/2004 11:33 AM
I've just gotten used - in all my PBEM and SP games - to trancing and armoring my infantry defensive probe teams. I've seen them survive many an attack as a result. ( I use 3res, if possible., on my mobile probes 'cos of the extra 25% against worm attacks, although it is more expensive)
A short list of their good attributes:
1) They cost no support.
2) They defend as well as regular army troops, but are not negatively effected by SE morale.
3) They are cheap if you build them on Infantry chassis.
4) They are still probe teams, which means adding them to a garrison protects you from both conventional and probe attacks.
5) They can be given special abilities like Trance and ECM (both of these for free!).
I build scads of these guys when I am worried about harrassment or invasion by the AI while I am busy pop-booming and / or running Wealth. I don't want to build regular forces then because they cost support, and troops built under wealth suck even after you have switched to another SE choice. Armored (Infantry) probe teams allow me to beef up my security cheaply and effectively, and can even be stationed outside of my territory while I am running FM, without causing drones.
Questions, comments, better ideas?
*********************************************
Posted by MariOne on 09-12-2000 10:20:
I grab the opportunity to add my 100 Lit. (=0.05$)
- I thought once to have been able to designate one as defender, in a scenario test about armoring non-combats. Well, I must have dreamt, as I was never able to reproduce it (and of course I was so dumb to forget to save that test!). SO:
Con:
- they can't be designated as primary defenders
- the game will pick a green 1-1-1 as defender even if you have an Elite PT-3-1 stacked with it
- when stacked and attacked, they would die (all of them!) just as probes, they won't just take collateral as normal combat units
- the above because their armor makes them non-combat only when *defending* (in first person) against a conventional attack (i.e. when they're not stacked with combat units)
- under every other respect they'll be treated as non-combat, for instance they won't move on the turn they dropped, they won't drop inside an ally's basezones unless Pacted...
Questions:
I might kick up a new test for that, but maybe you already know it:
- will armored probes be effective as police?
- will they create drones when away under pacifism?
- they won't be able to attack
- they won't be able to invade&conquer bases
*********************************************
Posted by Sikander on 09-12-2000 14:36:
MariOne,
Thank you for a very good point about Armored Probe Teams not being effective as stacked defenders. I only stack them in bases with other regular units (to provide probe defense), so I forgot all about that. I also use them (unstacked) to guard my frontiers (they do have a ZOC). Though they can't capture an empty base, they can mind control a base full of defenders, which a normal military unit cannot do. Another amusing thing about them is that they ignore enemy ZOCs, which can be useful in a shooting war, or when you are jockeying for terrain with another faction that you are not at war with. They do not seem to serve as police, though when you think about it they probably should serve as a sort of 'secret police'.
Armored Probe Teams make great border guards, as they defend well (when not stacked ) and can bribe enemy units which approach too closely, which is something a conventional 1-X-1 Infantry unit cannot do. Obviously they cannot be mind controlled, though they are potentially vulnerable to probe attack. They won't cause drones when you are running FM, which means you can station them forward of your official frontier, and they cost no minerals to support. While they are not a panacea, they outperform regular military units at some tasks, and do it more cheaply unless you have a high support rating.
*********************************************
Posted by Ogie Oglethorpe on 10-12-2000 06:09:
Ahh one of my favs the armored Probe team, a must for any Morgan Player.
In answer to MariO, No police effects either.
But look at the benefits for Morgan,
Clean Unit (biggest benefit)
Can be upgraded to Trance (needed to prevent Worm rape on his puny size bases)
With energy to burn (counter subversion is very likely)
Assuming FM/Wealth Morgan sits down a new base and wants some immediate security (as opposed to an immediate former). Infantry probe team (sans armor) gets rushed on turn one. (19 energy I think). Next turn PT gets upgarded to synth (or greater) trance. This high morale trance unit ensures worm protection vs. a very green 1-1-1 trance scout unit that cost Morgan his one and only supported unit.
The one dies they all die phenomena ensures that if your going to be building these you'll neeed to carpet your territory with them and do NOT stack them.
Finally one of the biggest downsides is their vulnerability to standard PT attack. Just suppose for a second that you've built in later game an Infantry PT w/ Nuetronium armor and ECM to boot. All it takes to defeat that is standard PT combat of which that armor and special has no bearing. AS an attacker I'll take the loss of a standard PT in terms of lost mins/energy vs. the upgraded one.
*********************************************
Posted by Helium Pond on 13-12-2000 11:57:
Wait--the SE morale effects don't count for probe teams, even when they're acting as combat units? Really?
*********************************************
Posted by Ogie Oglethorpe on 14-12-2000 21:44:
Helium,
I think what is being referred to with respect to SE choice is that probe team morale is not dependent on SE choices affecting morale but SE choices that affect probe rating (i.e. Fundy). Couple that with inherent techs that increase PT morale such as polymorphic software, net nodes(?) and others and one can run wealth or other SE chocies that result in terrible morale ratings and still churnout elite PT units.
So as an example one could choose fundy/FM/wealth/eudi (as a theoritcal point) and be churning out -3 morale conventional units or more than likely churnout elite PTs.
And yes that elite morale rating would be calculated in 'normal' combat odds.
This is my understanding of how it is supposed to work, but I have been known to be wrong. What I don't know or understand is 'normal' facilites help PT morale as well. For example does a command center increase PT morale? I'm almost positive the Bioenhancement Center does.
Finally a little more on why this is a perfect fit for Morgan,
Since it behooves Morgan to run FM/wealth this little armored probe strategem is just what's needed because it's the perfect 'get around' for his weaknesses.
Support - units are clean
Morale - PT units are higher morale than what is delivered under wealth conditions
Police - Who cares b/c you running FM where you can't have police anyway.
Warring - PT are allowed to go outside borders without pacifism drone issues.
Downsides - PT's die by the handfuls so you really need to have them one per tile without any conventional units.
Your S.O.L. if up against stacked units where you can't subvert. Your only hope in this case is that your armor holds up. Although an elite armored ECM PT in a bunker with a sensor is a marvelous thing to behold as you see wave upon wave of speeders being chewed up but the not so artificial intelligence.
*********************************************
Lt-Col Maniac Date Posted: 26/06/2004 10:59 AM
Do you suggest that we build armoured probe teams ourselves? Or is this thread to have some countermeasures ready when we see a few of those little fellows in the Angel or Morganite army?
"I love the smell of nerve gas in the morning." -- Pedro 'Maniac' Riveira
*********************************************
Googlie Date Posted: 26/06/2004 11:33 AM
I've just gotten used - in all my PBEM and SP games - to trancing and armoring my infantry defensive probe teams. I've seen them survive many an attack as a result. ( I use 3res, if possible., on my mobile probes 'cos of the extra 25% against worm attacks, although it is more expensive)
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