Spartan Diplomacy

[jtsisyoda]

My proposed message to the Spartans:

You have been found in violation of the Modo Doctrine. Your trespassing foil has been dealt with accordingly. Payments have been suspended due to the state of Vendetta you have forced upon us. If you wish for payments to resume, please negotiate a criminal settlement with any Morgan diplomat in the Embassy.

Live by the Modo, die by the Modo.

[jtsisyoda]

A PM sent to Googlie, Maniac, and Kassi:

I believe we're required to inform you that we probed your ship and had you declare vendetta against us. A similar message is going to other senior Junta members.
-Yoda

The other message above has been posted in the Spartan Embassy.

[AndiD]

Sounds good for me...

[jtsisyoda]

Kassi's quick PM reply:

Your expedition in informing us is appreciated, even if it is demonstrated under such unfortunate circumstances.

[-SafaN-]

Well, the spartans made a phalanx describing us as the big bad. And they promise to never forgive us.
Should we react? Give Angels and Gaian an other point of view?

They also made peace with the uni, so its only us now,
We need credits, lots of credits, and also those gaian and angel communiations.

I would have voted against the act, but well its done, so we will solve it.

Greetz, SafaN

[jtsisyoda]

The Morgan-Sparta Embassy at aimoo is offline as of now. I assume this is a diplomatic choice, and not technical difficulty. I'll PM Googlie. If he doesn't reply, we'll know the answer.

[jtsisyoda]

From Googlie:

There'll be a piece appear soon in the general thread.

Groups of enraged helots at Sparta Command rioted and burned the Morgan Embassy to the ground in retaliation for the loss of the SCC Hunter

I took it off line - after Kass and the appropriate Morgan diplomats have talked it can be "rebuilt"

G.

[Mead]

Hi all,

I'm back.

War is here.

It was coming sooner or later whether we liked it or not.

We must prepare our defenses (I prefer an active probe heavy defense).


All the above being said, I can try to placate the Spartans, hopefully long enought until we get contact with the other factions.

I wasn't in town when the decision to probe thir ship was made or executed so they might be more willing to belive me.

As an aside we may want to spread the rumour that the Corporation is in the midst of an violent internal fight over control. I think that the frequent 'coups' in the Hive in the last ACDG left our opponents guessing at what we would do next.

Let me know what you all think. Do you want me to try to play the peacemaker?


Mead

[jtsisyoda]

Yes, please make peace if you can. We're not in a position to attack them, so we gain almost nothing with this vendetta. The only thing we might gain is an excuse to destroy some probe defenders and infiltrate them.

[Mead]

I PM'd Googlie and he replied by e-mail (my Apolyton in-box was full, I have since emptied the in-box somewhat).

This is the message:

I can't reply by way of a PM as your inbox is full and won't accept any more messages.

Here's what I wanted to say (your comments in bold, my replies interspersed in normal text:

*************************************

And a Happy New year to you, too, Mead:

A somewhat ingenuous defense, if I may say so.

My comments annotated to your message:

It's still a little sketchy (I can't get into the embassy)


The Embassy was destroyed by a crazed horde of Spartan Helots who lost loved ones on board the Hunter (I took it off-line, but it made a great fiction story piece - I'm shortly going to post it in the general forum where jtsisyoda posted about Ambassador Mead vacating the Embassy)


so I'm working only of what I can read in the forums) but it looks like the following happened.

Our probe was exploring in the northern sea.

Sparta declared a MODO (I think) doctraine claiming to extend its terrtitorial seas eight squares out into the international seas.

8 squares from our nearest bases

Our probe discovered the Hunter in international waters (but within the area Sparta attempted to claim).

The Hunter was exactly 8 tiles form our nearest base - on patrol

I think Sparta stated it would destroy any ships within the claimed area.

Indeed we did

Even though the probe action cost a lot of money, it was clear to the crew of the probefoil that it would be killed the next turn if it did not probe the Hunter. In self defense the probe foil probed the Hunter.

1 tile north and 1 northeast would have been at our limit (and on the diagonal northeast from that) - 2 tiles north or northwest would have been outside our claimed waters. There were clear alternatives to mind-controlling the vessel

Please let me know if I have missed anything.

Mead


Ambassador Lieutenant-Colonel Kassiopeia has been charged with ongoing discussions with the Corporation. The replacement costs for the SCC Hunter have been set at 120 energy credits (to rush build a replacement from scratch)

Of course, returning the Hunter to a Spartan port, and ceding control back to Sparta, would ameliorate these costs significantly. But I will leave these negotiations to the Lt Colonel.

For our part, we saw the action of the Corporation as being somewhat of an opportunistic nature, occupied as we were with the liberation of North Arcadia. You saw the ship, you could "poke us in the eye" by acquiring it in retribution for our killing of your defense attorney and at the same time suspend due payments for traded technologies, while we were engaged elsewhere.

Relations are therefore at a low point, understandably. I don't know what Lt-Col Kassiopeia can salvage, but just remember - and pass it on to your colleagues - Sparta has a long memory.

Colonel Googlie

*************************************

(Well, I don't know if the bold format carries thru to this e-mail, but I don't have any e-mail addy for you other than this

G.

Let me know what you all think.

My thoughts include:

Keeping the Hunter on station but allowing a Spartan observer to be on board.

This way they get to keep it on patrol to protect thier borders. This has the added benefit to Sparta in that the observer post that costs them nothing in the way of support.

We get to keep it on patrol to keep an eye out for the Spartan invasion fleet. It will cost us some support and may lead to drone riots (I don't know what base is now supporting it).

We cannot accede to thier claim to the international seas.


These are my current thoughts. I'll work some with Sparta but I would like some input before we make ny agreements.

Mead

[Mead]

PM from me to Kass

Kass

I got Googlie's e-mail and I have emptied out my PM in-box so I should be able to recive PMs.

A lot happened since I was away.

I think you received my PM to Googlie informing him that the probe of the Hunter was made in self-defense. If you have not, please let me know and I will forward it onto you.

I understand that you are upset over the loss of the Hunter and seek its return. I understand tht it was serving as a valuable patrol boat in the Northern Sea.

I have a proposal that will better suit your needs of early warning.

I propose that a Spartan observer be placed on the Hunter.

This way you get the benefits of:

Still having a patrol in the Northern Sea;
That costs you nothing to support; and
That is in place now, not two or three turns from now.

If we were to move the Hunter towards a Spartan port that would mean that for those turns before the Hunter's return to its patrol station you would have no coverage. Additionally, waiting until a new boat was constructed and placed on station would take time.

Although the costs in support (both drone control and basic mineral support) to the Corporation are substantial, I think the Corporation would be willing to go ahead with the above plan. It would be nice if the Junta could assist in supporting the costs of the Hunter by crediting 2EC per turn (against Morgan profit sharing payments to the Junta) for the passage of the Spartan observer.


Please let me know what you think.


Mead

PS

I'm still trying to figure out the MODO doctrine. It appears to be an unilateral territorial claim of the Junta. I think we will have to explore territorial claims to the open seas in future discussions. I can see it being in effect against large invasion fleets, but not for small ships engaged in exploration or trade. For now, let's not have any unfriendly actions against Spartan or Morgan forces and just get back to cooperative, profitable, peace.

[Mead]

Reply from Kass:

An update on discussions:

RE: Resolution

quote:
I think you received my PM to Googlie informing him that the probe of the Hunter was made in self-defense. If you have not, please let me know and I will forward it onto you.


I have it, thank you.

quote:
I understand that you are upset over the loss of the Hunter and seek its return. I understand tht it was serving as a valuable patrol boat in the Northern Sea.

I have a proposal that will better suit your needs of early warning.

I propose that a Spartan observer be placed on the Hunter.

This way you get the benefits of:

Still having a patrol in the Northern Sea;
That costs you nothing to support; and
That is in place now, not two or three turns from now.

If we were to move the Hunter towards a Spartan port that would mean that for those turns before the Hunter's return to its patrol station you would have no coverage. Additionally, waiting until a new boat was constructed and placed on station would take time.

Although the costs in support (both drone control and basic mineral support) to the Corporation are substantial, I think the Corporation would be willing to go ahead with the above plan. It would be nice if the Junta could assist in supporting the costs of the Hunter by crediting 2EC per turn (against Morgan profit sharing payments to the Junta) for the passage of the Spartan observer.

Please let me know what you think.


Your gall astounds me. You have subverted a perfectly fine sea-going vessel worth a substantial amount of energy credits, and now you suggest that we pay you 2 ec per turn for the privilege of receiving information from a ship that was ours in the first place?

While the Junta's ear is open to offers of recompensation for the lost vessel, this proposition is absurd. I can only hope for the sake of our peaceful coexistence that this is a Morganite negotiation tactic, so that a ridiculous proposition will seem moderate in comparison.

I also fail to see how self-defence was an issue - the Hunter was on a mission of exploration and our factions were not at war. As you later state in your own message, "I can see it being in effect against large invasion fleets, but not for small ships engaged in exploration or trade." Your own invocation of the Modo Doctrine therefore seems odd at best and hypocritical at worst.

quote:
I'm still trying to figure out the MODO doctrine. It appears to be an unilateral territorial claim of the Junta. I think we will have to explore territorial claims to the open seas in future discussions.


Yes, you are correct, it is a territorial claim employed to offset the meagre one square radius of sea area that is provided automatically when constructing a base. In order to keep ships from endangering our sovereignity as a faction, we need to have a clear buffer zone around our coasts to avoid unfortunate surprises.

It's "the Modo Doctrine", by the way, named after Commander Modo.

quote:
For now, let's not have any unfriendly actions against Spartan or Morgan forces and just get back to cooperative, profitable, peace.


This is acceptable, as long as our negotiations vis-a-vis proper compensation for the Hunter are proceeding.
__________________
Your duty as a SMAC player: Vote Googlie in the Hall of Fame!

Senior Diplomatic Officer, Minister of Information, Governor-General of Arcadia, Lt. Col. of the Spartan Army in the Alpha Centauri Democracy Game. Yes, we could use a few more active players.

[#endgame]

Quote:
Your own invocation of the Modo Doctrine therefore seems odd at best and hypocritical at worst.

Since the Modo Doctrine is based on the Monroe Doctrine, send the Spartans the datalinks entry (i.e. weblink) that I found earlier, which effectivley means that the Doctrine is 2-way. When there is a possibility of 'attacked without warning' as Doctrine : Modo specifies, anything to prevent an attack at any time can be classed as selfdefence.

-- CTO #endgame

[Mead]

I PM'd this to Kass

Kass

We would like to get back to profitable peaceful trade with you.

Let me explain on the probe of the Hunter.

We did not want to do it because it cost a lot of money to probe, would lead to drone riot problems, and cost a mineral to support. We only probed it because we felt you would kill our probe the next.

We have the turn now and have to decide what to do. Can you give me a counter offer before our turn is up?

We have no problem with sharing screenshots from the Hunter (as well as other Morgan ships operating within 8 spaces of your bases). This is helpful to you in that you get additional coverage that cost you nothing.


Please let me know what you think.


There are a some over here who have a lot of hurt feelings over here about the Modo doctraine as well as a feeling that we have been accomdating to Sparta whereas Sparta has been pushy towards Morgan. I however, feel that there is a lot of good work that we can accomplish together. I hope I am not wrong.

Mead

PS

I wish I was back in town prior to your ship being probed, but I have to work with what I have.

Mead

[Mead]

Latest from Kass:

RE: Re: Resolution

Hello Mead,

quote:
We would like to get back to profitable peaceful trade with you.


Likewise, certainly. I apologize for the delay but we had a bit of trouble getting together a quorum of the Junta to proceed with the talks and I had some personal stuff that preoccupied me.

quote:
Let me explain on the probe of the Hunter.

We did not want to do it because it cost a lot of money to probe, would lead to drone riot problems, and cost a mineral to support. We only probed it because we felt you would kill our probe the next.


Why did you not just ask us to withdraw our probe? There were several other courses for the Hunter to proceed and we would have been happy to oblige. The Junta feels you have acted whimsically and rashly on this decision, which makes it all the more condemnable. We would have probably responded to the mere threat of it being mindcontrolled, to be frank. She was a good ship.

quote:
We have no problem with sharing screenshots from the Hunter (as well as other Morgan ships operating within 8 spaces of your bases). This is helpful to you in that you get additional coverage that cost you nothing.

There are a some over here who have a lot of hurt feelings over here about the Modo doctraine as well as a feeling that we have been accomdating to Sparta whereas Sparta has been pushy towards Morgan. I however, feel that there is a lot of good work that we can accomplish together. I hope I am not wrong.


These feelings are shared. With your autonomous "penalizing" of 50 EC for the probe incident earlier, this was the second time you've defenestrated our mutual agreements and treaties. This has not fostered the feeling of trust and friendship between our factions the way I (and you I imagine) would have hoped.

The Junta is going to meet in a live chat anytime soon now to discuss several things, our current conflicts naturally being the most important of them; but I assure you, once we have our quorum in place, I will do all in my power and influence to push through a peace offer that you will find acceptable. But the grievousness of your actions have only now started to set in...

Oh, and just an offhand question - why didn't you just disband the Hunter if it's causing you drone problems? I find this part of your actions a bit puzzling.

quote:
I wish I was back in town prior to your ship being probed, but I have to work with what I have.


I can certainly sympathize with your predicament, and I hope you're not between the rock and a hard place with the rest of your team.

Yours sincerely,
Kass
__________________
Googlie made it to the Hall of Fame with a record number of votes - thank you all who voted him.

There... are... FOUR... LIGHTS!

Mead