2133 End Turn and 2134 Discussion

[jtsisyoda]

Arginine's estimations for the Angels might be right.

I was recommending HGP in 2139, then PTS ASAP after the next five CP's. I estimate early 40's for that. HGP in my mind is more critical to our long-term success than PTS. OTH, we could consider PTS first as arginine suggests... I haven't worked out any numbers for how long it would take. I guess if we built PTS after the CP's come out, our core cities would still all be at three pop, same as the other plan. The possible downside is the hefty investment we'd have to make in psych.

Income: 26ec/turn. I think we're better off just rushing more crawlers, rather than saving for upgrades.

The Scout out of Mor Vul needs to be rehomed to SSR next turn, so Mor Vul can rush the CP in 2135.

[jtsisyoda]

We'd have to go with 40-50% psych if we built PTS first and want all of our citizens content. We could do 20% psych, with a doctor at ZZT, but RFR would starve to two pop. RFR doesn't have enough 2-nut squares to support two workers and a doctor. So 20% psych would save about two energy per base at the cost of one lousy worker working at best a 1-1-1 at RFR. The 20% psych would then mostly be covered by the +1 energy/square of the two extra workers per base. High energy bases like Mor Ind would lose a little more, though. The upside is about +2 mins per base from extra workers. With only seven cities (or maybe eight by the time PTS is done), that actually doesn't make up for the ten crawlers we used to build PTS. OTH, we'd lose less than if we used six crawlers toward building HGP first. Another thing to consider is the CP out of Mor Vul creating probably two b-drones, requiring 40% psych after all. So it looks to me like doing PTS first gains 12 minerals but loses maybe 20 energy to psych. Plus, we lose some of the 12 minerals when we build CP's in Money V, Imp Pol, and SSR, going to 2 pop, so it's probably more like 9 minerals vs. 20 energy.

Sometimes I use a general guideline of 2.25 energy = 1 min, because that's a rough average rush cost. However, that can be misleading, because energy gives you the flexibility to invest in key places. If used to speed something like a crawler, you get a jump-start on gaining more resources. It's the same (math-ish) concept as team-terraforming. If you have four formers build four forests separately, they finish all four at the same time as if they worked in a team to do each forest in turn; however, the team makes the first forest available much sooner, the second forest available sooner also, etc. It's also the same reason you want to rush one crawler per turn instead of saving up for all three later on. PRINCIPLE: Don't lock up "potential energy" by having a lot of minerals in the box, or a lot of formers just starting-- convert that potential into something tangible ASAP.

HGP before PTS is more true to this principle, IMO, in this case.

PTS first guarantees PTS for the rest of the game. However, then HGP is vulnerable. The Angels just might snag it, knowing how important it is to GA booming, and knowing from the mini-game how powerful the HGP/PTS combo is. I'd rather have HGP than PTS with Morgan.

[arginine]

I assumed we'd have 7 bases, and thus need only 20% psych. The extra ~3 energy per base would take care of the 20% psych. The extra pop would bring in an additional 3 mins per base, but we'd lose the 10 crawlers. 21 mins gained vs 20 mins lost.

In other words, the PTS's effects would cancel out the loss of the crawlers. My gamble would work IF the angels are NOT researching biogenics right not, AND we could build the HGP faster than they can research biogenics.

[Mead]

Originally posted by jtsisyoda

***

PTS first guarantees PTS for the rest of the game. However, then HGP is vulnerable. The Angels just might snag it, knowing how important it is to GA booming, and knowing from the mini-game how powerful the HGP/PTS combo is. I'd rather have HGP than PTS with Morgan.

Okay, so it looks like we are debating whether to build the PTS or HGP first.

I agree that the HGP is more important. I agree we should go for it first.

My question is how long do we wait before we build it. As I understand it, we could use up all our crawlers build it in the next turn or two. If we delay there is a chance that the DA (or someone else perhaps) could build it before us.

If we wait about four turns then we will have the mineral production out of the crawlers to help us make the CPs and more crawlers for the PTS and general use.

If the DA grabs the HGP then we should get the PTS (and vice versa). By waiting to build the HGP until later we stand a better chance of getting both SPs. I suggest we wait until just before we plant new bases before we insta-build HGP. Then we devote every base to crawlers to try to get the PTS.


It's a gamble, but one worth taking.


Mead

[arginine]

I was proposing that we grab the PTS, which the angels can build and then rush to build HGP before the angels could research it. Since we don't know the angel's tech rate that would be quite risky. The gaians will have IA too soon.

[AndiD]

HGP first, definitely. Perhaps have a look at the current minigame where the Angels' expansion process is severely hampered by b-drones. The PTS wouldn't really help there since new bases would be drone-doctor-starved in a few turns anyway.

When to build it is a more difficult question. I think a thin expansion is safer so that would be:
- Build the HGP ASAP by cashing in all crawlers ASAP (6 or 7 crawlers, is the HGP 200 minerals or 180 (10% Industry discount from Wealth)?)
- Thin expansion with colony pods, putting the HGP to best use
- Every base builds crawlers, especially from the first ten minerals
- Build the PTS with these crawlers ASAP and build formers afterwards with the newly gained industrial might.
- Until then we should be able to switch to Dem and kill a few b-drones.

[arginine]

The idea of the gamble was that we might be able to get both. Since we don't know enough about the angels, the gamble would be very risky. The current plan is to wait as long as possible before we have to cash the crawlers for HGP, build 5 CPs over the next 7 turns and build more crawlers with excess capacity.

What is thin expansion? I am guessing it is lots of small cities instead of a few bigger ones. I am for that. Especially once we get PEG to really use our 6 energy in the base square. I forsee us using the money to finance development of a few large bases at a time.

I am expecting the angels to get the PTS. :P

With the HGP we can have an infininte number of foreign troops and bases and never get drones in size 1 bases. I'd prefer a police state (for support reasons) if the efficiency is not too bad... At least until bioengineering.

[Whoha]

My 2 cents, throw econ to 100%, build those wonders asap.

[jtsisyoda]

Thin expansion is expanding before doing stuff like infrastructure or garrisons. We've definitely paused our thin expansion, but after some crawlers, we can start up again, no problem.

Increasing our econ percentage should definitely be considered. It will obviously delay the availability of probe foils, though. I bet the Spartans are going for Flex, too, since they aren't progressing toward IA. Maybe they hope to steal IA. We should build a probe garrison at RFR at some point... exactly when is the tricky question.

[Archaic]

Can't open the turn (Forgot the password. ^^;; PM choudai?), but from the sounds of things here, I'd have to support the HGP. Its importance for GA booming, especially with Morgan's lower hab limits, is too important to miss. PTS is great, yes, but seriously now, I'm doubting if we have enough space in which to use it, given the relative closeness of the Hive. Fu

To be honest, I don't think the PTS is in any danger of being snatched either. Biogenics is a 1st level tech, Ind. Auto a 3rd. Do we know when the other factions got Ind. Auto, if at all yet? Do you think anyone, with the exception of maybe the Angels (I'm out of the loop, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), would even potentially be deploying crawlers at the levels we are yet?

[jtsisyoda]

Our password is "marketing". There's a link to it in our topped thread, for future reference.

The Angels got IA in 2130. So far they're the only other faction to get it. From their population numbers, it looks like they built two CP's recently. So they could potentially have some other bases building crawlers. They're almost certainly behind us on crawlers, but since we're about to do a bunch of CP's, they might have enough to build one SP before we can build two SP's.

I don't get the "having enough space" objection to the PTS. It would help a lot even if we stopped at 12 bases.

[jtsisyoda]

We could delay the CP's at Mor Vul, SSR, Money V, and Imp Pol, until after we have enough crawlers for PTS and HGP. Then we build the CP's, then we build the SP's immediately after that. This is also a bit of a gamble, because it puts our horizontal growth behind everybody else for quite a while. It might be our best chance at the HGP/PTS combo, and if we get them, our horizontal and vertical growth will catch up quickly. But if we miss one or the other, we'd have the worst of all worlds-- slow horizontal growth, and only one SP. I don't think I like this option, but I'll put it out there for input.

Mor Vul is scheduled to produce a CP in 2135, and it would found a base in 2137 or possibly 2138. The original plan was to build HGP in Imp Pol circa 2139... so for a couple years before that we might need to go 20% psych. The alternative would be to delay Mor Vul's CP until after HGP.

I don't have any interest in permanently ousting Chaunk. I've had to delay playing some of my favorite PBEM's in order to play these turns, and would welcome Chaunk's return as CEO.

[arginine]

One of the benefits of the PTS, is one less drone in cities size 3 or smaller.

Our 8 crawlers will produce 16 mins / turn. Our 7 bases will produce ~ 18 mins / turn. Our income at 50% econ is 26 energy / turn or about 10 mins / turn. That means we produce about 43 mins / turn.

We will have to make 8 crawlers and 2 rows of mins to have enough for both projects. 9 mins / row * ( 3 * 8 + 2 ) = 234 mins.

So, in theory our bases prduce enough to make enough mins in 6 turns. The problem is once we build a SP, we lose 14 mins / turn.

If we slow down our expansion for crawlers and miss a SP, we'll have the extra crawlers to help rush the CPs. We can accomidate 2 people in our bases with 20% psych. 20% psych & 40% econ will bring in 22 energy / turn. It is a shame we don't have extra forest near most our bases to make the most of our people :P

What concerns me is that we have not figured in the cash reserves of the other factions. We've been burning through ours quickly. If the other factions could save theirs up for when they get IA and rush build the crawlers, they will get the SPs faster than we expected.

[AndiD]

The other factions most probably haven't much cash anyway, at least from regular sources. The Gaians (and to a lesser extent, the Spartans) might have gotten some from pod pops, the Angels most probably didn't.

When they do the Builder's game, they aren't exploring that much and probe teams get killed quickly by the first worm pop. The Gaians' worms aren't attacked by native worms and the Spartans' rovers are a good match for them.

I imagine the Angels having the same discussion, especially after the minigame. I did stop expansion at 7 bases, built crawlers, kept 2 on permanent work, built the HGP from newly produced crawlers and cashed every crawler in for the PTS. Only after that, I went on expanding horizontally again.

Another point which hasn't been mentioned in regard to "snatching" is that HGP is 200 minerals and PTS is 300. If the Angels have IA only since 2130 and we don't cash in all crawlers for the HGP but keep 2 of them per base to make even more crawlers for the PTS, we might well get both SPs.

A PTS 1.5 times the size of a HGP isn't a quick "snatch" but requires significantly more crawlers. A WP is something that can be "snatched" quickly but not a PTS (or a PEG for that matter).

I would try the tactic from the minigame again (that one jtsisyoda doesn't like too much), and mainly because of our superior cash position. We can afford to rush significantly more crawlers than the Angels despite they're running FM/Wealth, too and that's because we are further advanced on the "mineral curve".

[Mead]

Originally posted by AndiD
The other factions most probably haven't much cash anyway, at least from regular sources. The Gaians (and to a lesser extent, the Spartans) might have gotten some from pod pops, the Angels most probably didn't.

***

True

Another point which hasn't been mentioned in regard to "snatching" is that HGP is 200 minerals and PTS is 300. If the Angels have IA only since 2130 and we don't cash in all crawlers for the HGP but keep 2 of them per base to make even more crawlers for the PTS, we might well get both SPs.

I agree. We should try to get both SPs.
The way we do this by holding off, for as long as we feel prudent, on insta-building the HGP (it does not have to be a firm rule of keeping 2 crawlers per base). If we cash in all of our crawlers now (or the following turn), that will cripple our mineral production for about 8-10 years. By holding off on cashing the same number in for 3-4 years we stand a better chance of having built both the HGP and PTS, as well as still having crawers around to give us the mineral production we need to keep up with the game.

I would try the tactic from the minigame again (that one jtsisyoda doesn't like too much), and mainly because of our superior cash position. We can afford to rush significantly more crawlers than the Angels despite they're running FM/Wealth, too and that's because we are further advanced on the "mineral curve".

Yes, we are ahead on the mineral curve. We should be able to build the HGP and remain ahead in the mineral curve, if we don't cripple ourselves by rushing too soon.


Mead