Military Strategies

[jtsisyoda]

This is a thread for discussing military strategies. There are certain conditions particular to this game that we need to keep in mind:

No Empath Guild (infiltration has to be obtained the hard way)
No CBA (Aerospace Complexes have to be built the hard way)
No base attacks by choppers

What are the best ways to attack and defend under these conditions?

[jtsisyoda]

There are some obvious options to make up for no chopper base attacks:

Lots and lots of needlejets.

Drop troops attack the base. Infantry get +35% edit: +25% vs. a base, while Rovers can swoop in from outside the protective radius of an Aero Complex.

Air cover for those troops will be important. Otherwise, choppers can wipe out lots of incoming troops. Air superiority will be important-- a defender needs chopper interceptors to take out air cover, then regular choppers to clean up the ground troops.

Choppers are still great offensively for taking out crawlers and formers... ships, too.

[Whoha]

we might actually have to bite the bullet and build infantry,rovers and tanks .

though I think that DAP units will be the prevalent fighters here.

[jtsisyoda]

For conventional ground warfare, I highly recommend Buster's write up in the CGN SMAC Academy. http://www.civgaming.net/smac/acad_earlyattack.shtml

The key points on defense:
Forests slow down incoming rovers.
Sensors detect incoming troops (especially in fungus), give a bonus to defense, and deter mind worms.
Attack rovers can fight the invaders on their way in.
Probes and attack rovers can be positioned to retake a perimeter base that might be lost.

[Mead]

In order to make up for the inablity to use choppers on bases we (and all the other human players) will have to make a lot of needlejets (plus a lot interceptors to protect those needlejets) to carry out an effective fast offensive.

We are not the Hive, but compared to the other human factions we are doing pretty well. Sparta has that industry penalty, and the Gainians are going to have a tough time to outbuild us. Once we go Wealth we will be able to build a lot of aircraft, fast.

We will, of course, have to swap out of FM when we begin the build-up. We are going to get out of FM in any event once we are going to war.

We should use an adapted "Swoop n' drop" using a lot of aircraft with droppers.

Mead

[Archaic]

Why should we have to drop out of FM? A couple of high mineral bases with Punishment Spheres, or with all specialists, and we're free to go.

[jtsisyoda]

Pun Spheres come four techs later. That could be twenty years, or twelve if we're lucky. If we want to bomb somebody "with a quickness" (as they used to say in the 'hood ), we'd probably have to go with specialist bases or Green.

If we have HGP and work one borehole, we would just need to crawl a few con-farms and mines. One convenient configuration is a con-farm nut bonus, Rec Tank, borehole, four specialists, and as many mines as we need (2?) to support the planes.

Dem/Green/Wealth is less fuss, where every city can support a few units. The energy income won't be as good, obviously, but we'll still get +1 energy/square. If the others are in Planned, they won't even get that.

[Scorpi40000]

If we get The Virtual World and get a network node in every base wouldn't we be able to have at least one needlejet in each base? Or is those drone suppressors going to help with city growth?

[-SafaN-]

what about buying everything with probes, or isn't that worth it?
Would it be better to use the probes for destroying perimeters and aerospace complexes and then drop and attack?
Wondering how hard it will be to infiltrate, will they have 20 probe defender in all cities?

SafaN

[jtsisyoda]

Pacifist drones are calculated after facilities. I think the only thing calculated after those drones is secret projects. To give an example, if you have a size four base, all drones at first, then six psych gives TWDD (Talent-Worker-Drone-Drone), then VW gives TWWW, then pacifist drones give TWDD again, then HGP gives TTDD, which would not riot. So there are conditions where one jet is ok, but that's six psych we didn't need to spend. In comparison, if we just crawled enough nuts to make three specialists, we'd start with DSSS, then pacifism would not have any additional effect (I think), and HGP would make it WSSS. No psych cost.

Mind controlling bases is expensive. I could see us doing it on a limited basis. But if we rely on probes exclusively, the other faction can switch to Fundy and it will become ridiculously expensive. That's a 40ec defense budget.

Scorpi said in another thread:
But then we will also get D:AP first right? But is that too soon to begin an offensive?

Good question, Scorpi. Drop units are much more mobile, so that makes it easier. However, if we find a faction that has several bases near the sea, and within reach of planes, I could see us knocking out defenses with planes, then landing regular or amphibious troops to take the empty bases.

[Scorpi40000]

Originally posted by jtsisyoda
Good question, Scorpi. Drop units are much more mobile, so that makes it easier. However, if we find a faction that has several bases near the sea, and within reach of planes, I could see us knocking out defenses with planes, then landing regular or amphibious troops to take the empty bases.

Wouldn't that limit us to 2 factions we can attack? If the map is an X then it would take years (litterally) to get a sea colony pod to the opposite peninsula. And wont the other factions limit their number of coastal bases to prevent such attacks?

In any case shouldn't an amphibious attack should consist of a large number of high armor AA troops(This might not even be necessary should we attack before they get D:AP)? If the base could then hold out for a couple turns our needlejets could begin emptying the other bases and then using their own road network to take them. Or as an alternative we could destroy the road network around the conquered bases and destroy incoming units with needlejets while also bombing their bases. Of course it is possible that they wont even counterattack until they've got Air Power.

[jtsisyoda]

Well, a setup that would let us attack everyone at once is also a setup where everyone can attack us. One at a time is fine with me.

As far as how many coastal bases people will have, it's hard to say. It depends on how much space they get, how many bases they want, how much of a navy they want to produce, and how cautious they are.

Ideally, we'd attack before they had DAP, so AAA would be unnecessary. If we elect to destroy roads and destroy incoming units, choppers would be good for that, since those units will be out in the open. I think it's a good bet they'll try a counterattack as soon as possible. If not, we'll have time to take more cities or shore up defenses. As far as destroying roads goes, it points out how drop troops are by far the most mobile. They don't need roads.

Probes will be a key option for retaking bases, so defensive probes are key to invasions.

[Chaunk]

Pun spheres come four techs later indeed, but then MMI, now almost a redundant tech, is three techs after D:AP, so we're only researching one more tech. Plus then we have AAA.

I'd be inclined to think that we should try and fight a defensive war. We have two options as I see it:

1. We can try to appear to be not worth attacking in the early game by looking weak. Human players know the power graph is useless, but it still plays on peoples minds. We want to appear to be weak on the power graph. We're doing a bad job of this at the moment with our exesive tech rate, and our expansion paradigm (CP immediatly size 2) will make us shoot up the chart too. However, when we level out just before the b-drone limit for the HGP, we will level out on the power graph, and it's here we should be trying to make lots of contact. We make friends with people here, ideally on fairly long term pacts or treaties at least. We then build the HGP, expand to the 2nd b-drone limit and rocket up the power chart.
This is stage 2. We need to look too strong to attack cheaply. We should try and make people ally to attack us. In a game with only one winner, any alliance is fragile, and easily broken by the power of the rumour. We should play on that.
The overall aim of this strategy would be to avoid war until we're so far ahead that the other factions have lost, whether they attack us or not. We build like crazy and suddenly they see our true strength when we insta-build 14 PB's and start waving them around. Game over.

2. Turtle like crazy. We don't go looking for people, we make them come to us. When they do come to us, we have a defensive probe network and garisons in all coastal or critical bases. Aero space complex's follow, but probably after AMA and AAA. This is a dangerous tactic as we can rest assured that some of the factions will be looking for us, and if they find us too soon, we will suffer.

If we must fight an offensive war, then roll out the noodles! Noodles + Elite infantry = strong attack. Fundy+FM+Wealth will get us great troops & probes. We should also be the first to most of the offensive techs, so blitzkrieg is a good option. Hard without choppers, but if we attack early enough, we'll only be facing scouts in most bases anyway.

This is mostly theory anyway at this stage. Sure, lets plan for all eventuallities, but lets take it as it comes. We may be able to avoid war and transcend peacefully. Lets wait and see

[Mead]

Originally posted by Scorpi40000
If we get The Virtual World and get a network node in every base wouldn't we be able to have at least one needlejet in each base? Or is those drone suppressors going to help with city growth?

I was hoping for a lot more than 1 jet per base, although we should concentrate our construction at those bases, high in minerals, that have a AC and bio enhancment center.

If we go on the offensive, then I would like a LOT of aircraft, plus the necessary drop probes, drop rovers, and drop garrisons.

Mead

[Whoha]

Originally posted by jtsisyoda
Pun Spheres come four techs later. That could be twenty years, or twelve if we're lucky. If we want to bomb somebody "with a quickness" (as they used to say in the 'hood ), we'd probably have to go with specialist bases or Green.

If we have HGP and work one borehole, we would just need to crawl a few con-farms and mines. One convenient configuration is a con-farm nut bonus, Rec Tank, borehole, four specialists, and as many mines as we need (2?) to support the planes.

Dem/Green/Wealth is less fuss, where every city can support a few units. The energy income won't be as good, obviously, but we'll still get +1 energy/square. If the others are in Planned, they won't even get that.

actually, the efficiency bonus might overcome the lack of commerce/city square energy. the real problem with green is the growth hit.