Announcement

**AndiD** · July 4, 2004, 05:34

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Posted by LoD on 29-03-2000 22:37:

PrinceBimz: Damn it, I was just about to say that.

This idea is cheaper than the Mind Worm aproach (nothing personal, Tau Ceti), and you spend less minerals than the attacker.

And 13x-1-12*2 Chopper/NJ costs 60 mins to build by default. Your "defence" chopper does not require neither the high lever weapon, nor a fusion reactor (I'm not counting the Nerve Gas Pods ability because it has the same cost as Air Superirority). Now, a <4>-1-10*1 Chopper/NJ costs only 30 mins, and that means you can build two of those for every unit the attacker sends into your territory. And, unlike your opponent, you actually get to recover your air fleet after the attack.

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Posted by Ogie Oglethorpe on 30-03-2000 05:38:

LoD and the player otherwise (formerly?) known as PrinceBimz

Maybe I'm confused here. An interceptor on alert scrambling to provide air defense to a ground/sea unit will defend with weapon value say 4 for the cheapies you've mentioned. The Shard X chopper however should be using its attack value since it is the attacker not its armor value further it should be able to employ Nerve gas net effect is a 19.5 attack value against a lowly 4 defending unit before moral effects. Thats tatamount to simply throwing away your minerals for the interceptor.

Now if the case were reversed and your interceptor strikes the Shard X chopper after it has completed its moves then the Shard X defends with armor of 1 and is easy pickings for your cheap interceptors. However by that time at least one set of moves/carnage has been done. Additonally if local air power is present and recognized I'm sure a player of MTG's caliber would surely self destruct sooner and take out some more crawlers rather than let the interceptors respond.

LoD, By the by as I hope you recognized, I was just busting your chops. I recognize you from the old OWO forums. Was a long time lurker there and picked up many useful hints. Remember CEO Bernard? What ever happened to him? He was the first one to really expound on the virtues of Morgan and FM. I started to get bored once the forum became nothing but flame wars. Finally came here (and actually began posting) as the tone/atmosphere suits my tastes best.

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Posted by Velociryx on 30-03-2000 06:24:

Defending the inland sea from air attacks:

If you develop it as per my last post, then it is entirely ringed with bases, and those bases (presumedly) have an array of defenses (we're talking about mid game here, at least, given the time it would take to finish basic terraforming of the starting landmass, complete said land bridge to the poles, and begin to terraform/harvest from the newly formed inland sea). Having said that, and given an active stance on defense (regular patrols, not to mention your own units that you're sending out toward your opponent's territory to cause problems), you will nearly always discover the marauding unit before he even reaches your shores, rendering the attack essentially a waste of time and minerals.

Any and all Builders out there, take heart and listen closely to the postings of the Momentum folk and follow their example....just remember two things:

First, a better infrastructure equals greater efficiency and economies of scale, meaning that, when you're ready to put together a war machine, you can do it more effectively and much more quickly than an empire with a less well developed infrastructure, and second, anything that works for a Momentum player will work even better for you (again, thanks to greater overall efficiencies).
-=Vel=-

PS: The secret (and most common reason Builders die) is to get good enough and fast enough to develop your infrastructure quickly....then spend the rest of the game building a war machine that the Momentum folk only WISH they could put together.

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Posted by Ogie Oglethorpe on 30-03-2000 07:49:

Vel,

Thanks for the response. One other reason (at least for me)that difficulties arise is the determination when to develop extensive military. If my mind set is builderesque and using thin expansion then moving onto infrastructure I can be figuratively caught with pants down in the event of premature monomemtum rush. Since the example above deals primarily with MMI/Fusion good weapon tech though I would assume though that time would be available to build that all important Military. Key here is to decide when to move from building butter to guns. The wrong decision can kill. Since I don't play multiplayer I can only assume this decision point is usually made earlier then in Single Player.

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Posted by Velociryx on 30-03-2000 12:22:

Hey YT! And that depends on the landmass I start out on, mostly....my goal is to fill it entirely during my first expansion phase....my usual settings are: Huge planet, 50-70% water (gives me a pretty solid chance of being on a decent sized landmass and having it all to myself), lots of erosion (cos I hate having to "see around" all those damned hills), and lots of rainfall. This is ideal for my style of play, because it virtually guarantees that most bases will already have a square that produces 2 nutrients, which frees me up to immediately plant a tree and begin heading toward the new base sites to plant those sensors (giving me a non-snipable, additional 25% defensive bonus). Also, with lots of erosion, there seems to be lots of flat squares, which makes roadbuilding a snap too. All that, coupled with the geometric growth in the early game and the practical inevitability of getting a pretty good spread of nutrient resource bonus squares, and it's not unreasonable to get in the neighborhood of a dozen (or more) bases up and running somewhere in the mid 50's to early 60's.

-=Vel=-

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Posted by Velociryx on 30-03-2000 12:50:

Oh....forgot something: In the guide, I mention various expansion paradigms that could be used, and they represent styles of play I have actually used in the past. Now though, I firmly believe that Thin is the ONLY way that makes sense....the quicker you get those bases up and running, the stronger your position. Delaying your drive to critical mass (Manifest Destiny) to avoid the odd drone problem or out of a perceived need to play it safe will only hobble your growth. It's true that you run the risk of early game exposure to marauding worms, and if someone finds your crappy little bases in the first fifty turns or so, you're toast if you don't IMMEDIATELY shift gears, but barring those two possibilities, once the basic system is in place and those economies of scale begin to kick in, your total outputs will be FAR greater than those of your opponents, and that's the only consideration that truly matters.

One thing that Momentum players are loathe to admit to is the fact that building endless hordes of military units DOES come with a pricetag...in the form of support costs. True, they're geared to be able to have more "free units" but invariably they'll exceed that limit, and have to start paying a mineral per unit....and, by their own admission of not spending time on infrastructural development, that will begin to hamper their productive capability.

On the other hand, a Buider/Hybrid player won't generally start to crank out a severe military til the advent of clean reactors, keeping overall support costs relatively lower (and then at zero with a mass-upgrade to clean units), meaning that 100% of your empire's mineral outputs can go toward creating your war machine, which will enable you to rapidly close the gap between you and your more warlike opponent, AND it will make replacing losses relatively easier for you.

Remember, Momentum style is kinda a one-trick pony....hit your opponent unprepared. Do that, and you win....but if you can't, or don't find your opponent til he's set up properly, then his infrastructure WILL beat yours if he has even the tiniest amount of killer instinct (and, in case you're curious, a AAA Photon garrison in a base built on a sensor array touting an Aerospace complex and a tachyon field can take on Fusion choppers (standard 2:1 ratio) and not even blink).

-=Vel=-

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Posted by YT on 30-03-2000 13:28:

Vel: it sounds like you play exactly the same way I do (except I use weak errosion), with one big difference. You expand like mad. I usually take 120 years or so to get out those ten-twelve bases, because I start in on infratructure earlier, space my bases more, and exclusively use formers in their base radii. This does mean that a random mind worm or other player won't take me out, but I can see in MP it would be very, very effective to use your method.

I like your analysis of a hybrid, but it seems to me that the line between a hybrid and a builder is narrow, whereas the line between a momentum and hybrid is quite far. I would say a hybrid player is a builder at heart that has finally quit building, and gone to units.

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Posted by Velociryx on 30-03-2000 14:01:

Hiya Kaz! As to MP on a Standard Map: Nothing at all changes in the expansion phase....but where infrastructural development is concerned, I will generally only allocate bases in groups of 2-3 at a time to build a given facility, and I DO find that I have to devote more time to building additional garrisons (will usually alternate facility-garrison-facility-garrison, generally using the "three per base" rule, and migrating them from the center to the border). One BIG change in the order of things though, is that Perim. Defenses (pre-airpower) are VERY high on the list for my border bases....generally built right after the CC's (for that defensive bonus). That, combined with Plasma-Armoured defenders, a sprinkling of Arty here and about, and an active (patrolling) defense can render your bases practically immune to takeover.

YT: I definately see the attraction of the slower development, and it makes each base a marvel, but you work against yourself by taking that approach for two reasons: First, each time a base grows by a factor of one, it takes a correspondingly longer amount of time to grow again. By keeping your bases fluctuating between size classes 1 and 2, you dramatically speed up the expansion process of your empire....it's true that it's annoying as HELL to lose a base once in a while to an odd worm or two, but in practice, that only happens to me about one game in eight....and the benefits of having all those production centers up and running so fast....well worth that small risk.... Give it a go and let me know how it works for you!

PS Forgot this part! LOL....it's been that kinda day....the second way you work against yourself is this: Let's say you build a tanks and then a commons, and then crank out a pod....pop drops by one, eliminating any drone problem you might have had, and thus, eliminating the need for the commons at that point in the game. Assume it takes 14 turns for the base to grow to the point where the commons becomes a necessity again....that's 14 credits you just spent on maintenance that you didn't have to. Multiplied out by the number of bases you do that in, and....you get it....

-=Vel=-

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Posted by Psharkjf on 30-03-2000 17:48:

Yes supply crawlers are the bomb. Learn to use them. Use them well. On all my maps, I have at least one base out of ten contantly churning them out. And these aren't the bland land ones, no. The AIR supply ships. Those are much more efficient and have a much longer range. But, a question. I know crawlers can completely disband themselves for full mineral value in Secret Projects and prototypes, but do they do the same for facilities?
And I've played all my games on Citizen and Specialist, and prototypes never seem to happen at all. Is that just because of the difficulty level or is prototyping almost nonexistent in the game?

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Posted by WhiteElephants on 30-03-2000 19:18:

Either it's the difficulty or you are playing as the Spartans. You should have to prototype every single new weapons platform(ie, rover, hovertank, copter, foil, etc.), armor, and weapon. If you already prototyped an impact rover(4-1-2) you won't have to prototype a impact infantry(4-1-1) which applies to any new or old weapons platform. Meaning you won't have to prototype each weapons platform every time a new armor or weapon is available only the weapon or armor. I hope this made sense.

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Posted by Scott Johnson on 30-03-2000 21:09:

Harkening back to my way earlier post on Dynamic Defense, let me repeat that forewarned is forearmed. Construct and operate a national (factional?) Early Warning System of patrolling radar planes, strategically placed sensors, radar cruisers, etc. I realize that some folks just don't want to deal with the hassle of doing this, but it is a valid measure to protect yourself from this stuff. If he's sending his X-chopper at you from a long distance, your EWS should pick up the intruder so you can zap him before he zaps you. Meanwhile, you can profit from this system by having your sea forces trawl for IoD, your planes return to base each turn, therefore being ready to scramble and intercept, and so on. A smart player has his units do double or triple duties--get the most bang for the buck.

**AndiD** · July 4, 2004, 05:34

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Posted by Velociryx on 30-03-2000 21:22:

Hey Ogie!

Thoughts on not getting caught with your pants down:

The biggest "builder killer" is to be caught in a situation where an attack begins and you have not been keeping your prototyping current. If you're following a pretty standard Builder paradigm, you've got scads of money, so with even a one-turn warning, you can easily convert a LOT of your trance-scout garrisons into something truly useful....IF you've been prototyping all along the way.

What follows is a pretty typical example of my current game:

Assumptions: Bases spaced three apart, across the board.
Preliminary goals: Cent. Ec.//Planetary Networks (Planned)//Ind. Auto (Crawlers & Wealth)//HGP (for the switch to market)

Starting two bases: Base Build, Former, Scout, Former, Colony Pods

All bases beyond the first two will skip the second former.

Terraforming off the cuff: First goal: create a terrain square that provides 2 nutrients if one is not already in the radius. Second goal: Plant a tree. Third goal, move out to build a sensor array wherever I want my next base to go.

When the second former is created, his job is to begin work on a road network to the new base sites, and terraform around the new sites in advance of the pod's arrival, then make haste to the NEXT base site to build a sensor array and pre-terraform....repeat until the continent is filled to capacity, with bases three apart.

A few turns before I get Industrial Automation, I take stock of my bases, and plan to slow down my expansion a notch. Bases that are far from the frontier will stop making colony pods in preference for supply crawlers (three per base), rushing anytime money permits (My Rush-Build philosophy is as follows: New bases get their formers rushed, every time, and if I've got the money, they get their trance-scout rushed too, cos that's pretty cheap, and saves at least one, but usually 2-3 turns). Then, money permitting, rush those supply crawlers, cos the quicker each base has three, the quicker I can start churning out infrastructure.

I select one base, targeting it for rapid early development (Tanks, Commons, and 3 Crawlers)rushing that as soon as I can arrange the cash...then, that base starts working on the HGP, with a mind toward switching from Planned to FM the moment it's finished. The leap in cash and research is usually enough to guarantee that I'll keep the tech lead, and the control from getting the HGP (which, remember, affects ALL my bases, mitigating the drone problem I created with my brisk expansion) and setting me up in a position to completely avoid drone problems during the pre-boom phase of the game, so I won't lose a single turn to riotous citizens....very efficient.

Having done that, I take stock of the position of my bases, relative to each other. As more and more bases fall off of the expansion train (too far away to efficiently participate), they too begin developing basic infrastructure, followed by three crawlers.

By this time, it's about 2150-ish (or perhaps the EARLY 2160's, depending on map settings and such), and the continent is beginning to get pretty full, enabling me to shift from expansionistic mode to full-bore builder mode. First item on the blocks are whatever SP's I'm interested in, and as bases reach their "state of readiness" (defined for my game by having the following: Tanks, Commons, and three (3) crawlers out harvesting minerals, they begin to work on those choice SP's, which the bases near them (three spaces distant) continue to churn out crawlers. Generally, the SP's can be completed in five turns in this way, faster with rushing....up to six if you take your time at it, or are working on one of the early game expensives (Virtual World), but the point of it is, you lose almost no time, and the structure of your empire lends itself to the rapid completion of the SP's you decide you want.

The Pause

Having accomplished all that, and before I complete the Empire's infrastructure, I will take a close look at my various bases and select 3-4 of them to begin doing prototyping work, and pair them up with a nearby base, which will crank out an additional crawler (effectively giving me my prototypes in a single turn). Those prototypes are all built on rover chassis (by this point, that gives me a Recon Rover, Synthmetal Rover, Plasma Rover, and oftentimes and Impact Rover as well, with decent morale, despite my penchance for running Wealth)....and their morale will continue to improve as my CC's come online (and it's generally pretty good anyway, cos I enjoy the flexibility of getting the Command Nexus). I generally go ahead and upgrade them to "best/best" empath models, giving me a core mobile force with which to defend my holdings, and at that point(Plasma armour), I'll take a quick stock of my surroundings, and any bases that appear to be in vulnerable (perimeter) positions will get an armour upgrade, and about 1/3 of those will get a "best/best" upgrade, giving me reasonably stout defenses and some attack capability in the event of a surprise.

Bases that are not participating in the prototyping project turn their attention to the following: Sea Formers, Transports, and Probe Foils, very quickly giving me a fleet of cheap explorers and opening up whole new vistas of terraforming options.

Usually this pause lasts no more than 4 turns, and then it's back to building. As of SMAX, being a Builder is a TON easier, cos you've probably already got free facilities coming out the wazoo....energy banks, holo theaters, command centers and (if you play Zak) net nodes are all things you just don't need to build....and you've already got the tanks and commons done, so thanks to some quick SP work, you're bases have pretty much developed themselves....at this point, my order of construction goes: CC, Tree Farm, Hab-Complex, and here's why:

As the last of the tree-farms are rushed, I switch from Market to Planned (having added Dem to the mix at some point earlier, as the last colony pod slid into position), running a 40/20/40 spread, usually for ten turns (and then switching back to market). In those ten turns (thanks to the continually spiking mineral outputs), it's a snap to finish the Hab-complex just in time, and follow that up with a Research Hospital (which will, under the current configuration) throw the base into a Golden Age almost every time.

Ten turns of that sees the bulk of my bases at size 14, with the stragglers generally at least size 10-11, and the incremental gains of continuing to run planned just aren't worth the time spent, so it's back to Market for techs in 3-4 and several hundred credits a turn.

By now, the terribly expensive Hybrid Forest can be constructed in (on average) 12 turns, which actually means about 4 (the point at which it becomes cheap enough to rush build them), and then the remainder of the game can be spent in pursuit of one of two things: Building a HORDE of clean units to sweep the map or building sea colony pods and such to continue your expansion.

Of course, to optomize for MP, I would not be building as many SP's, nor would I feel the meticulous need to put all the facilities everywhere (building up to Tree Farms and Hab-Complexes and contenting myself with that....further improving bases as the game situation permitted, rather than just mass-building).

Whew....okay....THAT was quite the little ramble...lol

-=Vel=-

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Posted by YT on 30-03-2000 21:44:

Christ Vi, that's scary. Remind me not to MP with you.

How many bases would you say you get out in the first 50-60 turns? And are you looking at a standard map size? I imagine that having the slow tech of a larger map would either mean insane expansion while waiting for tech, or enhanced basic infrastructure.

------------------
Yours Truly

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Posted by LoD on 30-03-2000 22:45:

Ogie: Crap! Dumb me! Of course I didn't take that into account!

Oh, and don't worry, I didn't take your post seriously.

CEO Bernard? Was that after Trippin' Daily's ban from OWO? I'm asking this beacuse I remember him posting about FM, and the division of the entire Builder community to fans and enemies of that SE choice which followed, but I don't recall if it was on ACOL or OWO.

Psharkjf: In Citizen or Specialist, you do not have to build prototypes. That's the way those skill levels are designed.

OTOH, Ogie, the entire "on alert" defense option may not be such waste. Keep in mind that the defender has Air Superiority, and the attacker has only Nerve Gas. If both planes are equal weapon and reactor level, the defender wins.

And, are you sure the Nerve Gas option activates while defendending in air combat?

LoD

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Posted by Ogie Oglethorpe on 31-03-2000 04:54:

Hey LoD,

I think the nerve gas will go off. I know for sure Soporific will so am pretty sure nerve will as well in fact I'm almost positive I've done so (but you know how faulty memory is for old men like me, so I won't say for sure).

CEO Bernard - Began posting theorums on successful use of Morgan at OWO on or about the same time Yin26 was just starting his crusading against Firaxis and customer service circa 1 month after SMAC release. Trippin' if memory serves was banned probably 4 months later. They had some great (or not so great depending on your POV) flame wars over there.

Again memory is suspect.

Ogie in his rocking chair.....I remember back when SMAC first came out. We had to walk 20 miles through blinding blizzards of snows 6 feet deep all uphill just so we could play one turn.....)

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Posted by Velociryx on 31-03-2000 05:46:

Here ya go, YT (and anybody else who might be interested)....I played out fifty turns of a new game, just to use as an illustration.....save game file available if anybody wants it.

Settings: SMACX, Huge Planet, 50-70% Water, Lots of Erosion, Average worms, Lots of clouds, random opponents, directed research, ironman, transcend level

2100: Free tech taken: Centauri Ecology
2102: Pod poppin! Founded Uni Base at the head of a river, right on an energy resource! AND, got 75 credits from the pod!
2103: Base 2 founded
2105: Tech Advance: Biogenetics
2107: Alien ship lands// Tech Advance: Social Psych
2110: Tech Advance: Secrets of the human brain - Free Tech: Planetary Networks (Switching to Planned)
2114: Tech Advance: Industrial Base//Upgraded my existing scout patrols to Trance Scouts
2121: Base 3 Founded.
2123: Tech Advance: Industrial Economics//Base 4 Founded.
2130: Base 5 Founded.
2132: Tech Advance: Industrial Automation (adding Wealth)//Continent mapped out...looks like room for 14 bases total. Begin dramatic slowdown of base expansion plans, considering the remaining room....after the current wave of colony pods find homes, I'll turn my attention to development (and crawlers!)
2135: Base 6 Founded.
2137: Bases 7 & 8 Founded.
2139: Tech Advance: Doctrine Mobility.
2141: Base 9 Founded.
2144: Bases 10 & 11 Founded.
2146: Tech Advance: Doctrine Flexibility
2150: Pod for Base 12 in position for deployment next turn

As is plainly visible in the save file, I'm prepping Relativity School and Zarya Sunrise to be the first of my "Project Bases" (they've already got two supply crawlers built each). Relativity School, due to placement, might seem like a weaker choice, but it's surrounded by mineral specials, and will likely need less "assistance" than Zarya in the completion of the initial projects.

I've still got room for two more bases on the continent (another one right on an energy resource square), but I'm in no particular hurry to add them....I'm happy with the pace of development, and besides that, theres a good bit of fungus around where the two remaining bases will go, so I can expect a bit of lag in their development. I am reluctant, as yet, to switch to Democracy though, as the gains will be minimal compared to the added support costs....and besides, I don't want anything slowing me down where those projects are concerned....so, I'll be happy with my hefty +3 Industry bonus and just build stuff for a while.

Next game phase: 2151-2200: Goals: Key projects I want to go for: HGP (for switch to market)//WP (early boreholes and speedy forming)//Virtual World (to totally eliminate pre-boom drone problems)//Planetary Energy Grid (love that cash!)//Empath Guild (lock down the elections)//Command Nexus (Counteract Wealth's morale hit)
Get that spiffy tech that lets me build the Planetary Energy Grid!!! Also get the TreeFarm Tech. Ideally, I'd like to have my last two bases dropped into place, sea formers built at all coastal bases and out doing their thing, transports built at all coastal bases and out doing THEIR thing, and probe foils built at all coastal bases out grabbing techs, maps, and generally stirring the pot. Additionally, I'd like to see all CC's and TreeFarms built, and all prototyping done. We'll see how it goes....

-=Vel=-

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Posted by Ogie Oglethorpe on 31-03-2000 06:30:

Vel,

Very nice expansion. On Huge world you've gotten 12 or nearly 12 bases by 2150. Looks like you got a little lucky in that no Progentitors landed on your continent. I hate when that happens because more often than not you really need to abandon expansion in favor of probe teams and prototyping. Speaking of prototyping, about which year do you start the prototyping activities to keep you militarily secure? I would guess you want to lock down the Command Nexus and Children's Creche in place first to get maximum effect for morale. Circa 2170's perhaps (aided with crawlers no doubt)?

Second question since you should not have hit the bueracracy warning yet, do you regroup/pause first by ensuring HGP before going forward with next round of expansions or do you blow right past beuracracy limits and go to thick expansion for police effect to quell drones (or do you advocate nerve stapling)?

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Posted by Velociryx on 31-03-2000 07:33:

Hey bud!

As to the expansion warnings...yep...already hit them....at the founding of base 10 (remember, I'm running Planned/Wealth at present, so my threshold is lower where the extra drones are concerned on account of the relatively poor efficiency rating I have....might be a good argument to switch to Dem earlier than I had envisioned, to avoid drones created via expansion....I'll consider that, but still prolly will wait until I get the initial round of projects done (HGP and WP).

As to prototyping, I've already been planning for that....I've got some landlocked bases which (in SMAX) have fewer things they need to build, so I'll prolly start my prototyping sometime after the second wave of projects is done (most notably the VW, but also the Command Nexus, if I get the tech for it anytime soon). At present, I don't have much to prototype, but that will change as soon as I start cranking out those probe foils and sniffing around for nearby factions. I don't usually have any hard and fast rules about prototyping, but I can tell you that if I see ANY sign of trouble as my scouts begin heading out, that (and the acquisition of decent combat techs) will increase in overall priority dramatically.... My main plan is to find some cheeseball faction close by and rape them for techs...I really don't care if they declare against me or not....they prolly will anyway, and at least I'll get the drop on them by grabbing a few juicy techs I've been ignoring....

As to Nerve Stapling....nawww....I never use it because of my penchance for running market, and am likely done expanding for a while anyway....at present, it's time to work on boosting up those economies of scale and prepping for a big ol' pop boom, but....phase two of the expansion will be into the sea....the cool thing about that is that sea pods, with their built in rec. tanks will be fully supported at size three when I get the PTS in a while....so when I sacrifice a pop point in my coastal bases, I'll see an immediate net gain of two....that'll be sweet indeed....

-=Vel=-

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Posted by Ogie Oglethorpe on 31-03-2000 08:40:

Hey Vel,

Last few days I've seen you here more than in the last few months. Self imposed exile must have been lifted. (Kind of feel like the Man in the Iron Mask?)

Anyhoo...

Another quick question your rate of expansion is quite impressive. I must be concentrating too much on producing formers than on colony pods in early days. What is your normal build que? I find a typical build que to be something like.

1. Former - Rushed
2. Pod - Comes along on its own about the same time as size 2 city thereby preventing drones.
3. Recycle - Rushed after 2 - 3 turns
4. Former - Rushed after 2 - 3 turns
5. Pod - Rushed to avoid 2 pop point and drones
6. Garison unit 1-1t-1

I know something isn't quite right here. I'm thinking I need a Garrison unit much earlier to allow size 2 but am loath to do so b/c I want my second former w/o support issue.

B/C I like two formers per base I find myself able to keep well ahead of my base building. WP becomes my first and foremost SP, HGP right behind then VW. WP is first in my mind as it allows me not only boreholes which are of limited use in early game but moreso condensors. I have fallen in love with these and make sure I prebuild right next to my ssnsor (i.e. new base site) a condensor/farm. 4 nutrients w/o gene splice allow even land based colonies good growth Size 3 Planetary bases are fully supported by base square and condensor/farm square allowing the other two citizens to work mine and/or borehole from the get go. Nothing like a new base with 11 - 13 minerals to start (assuming I can really prebuild). Remainder of squares usually goes forest.

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Posted by EternalSpark on 31-03-2000 10:40:

I figured since Vel commented on using Wealth, I'll ask it here...

I'm playing Yang. Should I use Power or Wealth? Power gives me troops better morale, but my Hive-Given industry is gone. If I do wealth, I'll be getting some mney Ill prolly need, but at the expense of morale... but if I'm the Hive, I'll be dealing in using many many troops, so morale wouldn't be important... or am I wrong? I usually go PoliceState/Planned otherwise

**AndiD** · July 4, 2004, 05:35

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Posted by Velociryx on 31-03-2000 11:20:

You'll prolly get lots of differing opinions on that, but if it was me, I'd use Wealth, and here's why:

You're absolutely right about Power totally negating your hefty industry bonus, whereas wealth enhances it. If you're playing Yang, then unless you just ignored it completely, you've no doubt gotten the Command Nexus project for yourself, which totally negates Wealth's one negative, meaning that you can still crank out halfway decent troops....and if you're using Planned/Wealth, it doesn't really matter that they're not elites, since you can replace your losses significantly faster than anybody else in the game....you don't need great troops....just more troops, and you can do that easily with the heinous industry advantage you can create with Yang by running Planned/Wealth

-=Vel=-

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Posted by YT on 31-03-2000 11:20:

Vel: The only problem I can see is that your stategy is very specific to certain techs. Specifically, Industrial Economics to give you access to those crawlers, and then the appropriate techs for HGP and VW SPs. Here's the rub: I usually play blind research. So I could still take advantage of your expansion stratagy (blind almost always gives you CentEcol for formers), but not neccisarilly the crawler rush of projects, or expansion help, etc. On the other hand, that's one thing that usually encourages me to start in on early facilities sooner (such as network nodes).

I don't know why, but directed research, while a valid rule in the game, just feels like an easy way out to me. Same goes for specifying details of Planet. I usually generate a random map, including sea %, fungus abundance, raininess, but not including size (since you have to pick anyway, I usually pick huge). This means that your beautiful strategy (and it is beautiful) won't always be available, especially depending on ocean size. I'm just more comfortable with the variability, and sometimes extreme challenge (Planet cult with no fungus? -shudder-).

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Yours Truly

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Posted by Velociryx on 31-03-2000 11:48:

Howdy YT, and you're absolutely correct there....the strategy really IS tied to certain key techs, and I too, generally play blind unless I'm setting up a game to illustrate a particular purpose or principle....even with Blind Research though, by dictating which of the four areas you will research under, you can generally snag those few key techs you need in record time...granted, likely not as efficiently as with directed, but you'll still be well ahead of the curve...the only thing is that not ALL the projects will be as easy to get...specifically, you might lose the Empath Guild and Xenoempathy Dome to Deirdre if you focus on the Build techs long enough to get Industrial Auto, but hey....with a burgenoning population and hordes of probe foils, that should not be much of a loss....

Specifics:

In the game I posted the timeline for (as the UoP), the first thing I'd do would be to set techs to Explore, in the hopes that my first tech would be Cent. Ecology (assuming I didn't get it at random via the freebie).

After that, I'd shift my focus to Discover to pick up Biogen, and then to Build to pick up Soc. Psych...after that, I'd go back to Discover until I snagged SOB and the freebie that comes with it, and then set to Build until Ind. Auto showed it's face. After that, I'd head back to Explore to pick up the mobility techs and green stuff, then back to build for pretty much the rest of the game. In all, it might take you 15-25 more turns having to do it that way, but the principles would remain about the same.

-=Vel=-

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Posted by kaz on 31-03-2000 13:15:

Hey Vel, you seem to be a very efficient player, and I wanted your opinion on a tactic.

During my initial expansion, I usually set my second base to building a former, then a Command Center, then use that base to produce the garrison scouts for every new base(rushing to gain a turn here and there).

When the pop seems about to jump(two to three), I build a pod.

Personally, as an old Spartan player, I'm addicted to upgraded troops. When I get Bioenhancement Centers and the Trained ability, I usally regarrison with (post monolith) Scout Elites, that I then spot upgrade to Clean/"whatever my purpose is" troops.

I also don't see the value of Wealth, or even Power for that matter. The bonuses just don't seem worth the price(s).

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Posted by Velociryx on 31-03-2000 13:40:

Hey Kaz!

A very good idea, and it brings to light the notion of specializing your bases to specific purposes. The only thing I would say is that, especially in the very early game, setting aside one of your bases for that purpose would seem to slow you down....remember that the longer you keep all your bases churning out pods, the longer you enjoy true geometic growth, and the moment you pull that first base off of that curve you start to lose at least some of those benefits in terms of another player who may be pursuing the same basic early game expansion strategy somewhere across the pond.

Essentially (and here comes my Economics training again), what we're talking about is the Opportunity Cost of pulling a base off the Colony Pod line early and beginning to crank out those scouts. Over the course of the first fifty turns, that could easily translate into a 1-2 base advantage your opponent has over you....giving him a bigger overall base to work with. Of course, at some point, the decision must be made to begin to specialize and do things besides building yet more pods....as the game develops further, people begin branching, and flexing the economic might they have accumulated, but if you start flexing too early, you risk having comparatively under-developed muscles.

Consider this alternative: If you begin building a CC while the base is still size one, it might take you....8-10 turns to finish it, and then 2-3 turns to build each of the scouts....that's a pretty significant time investment, but....if you go ahead and do that breakneck expansion, get your crawlers out and pump that base up to somewhere in the neighbor hood of 20 minerals a turn....now you're talking about being able to build the Command Center (or hell, just build the Nexus at that point) VERY rapidly, and (with only minor rushing costs each turn) you can crank out a plasma garrison each turn.....that's pretty sweet.

The main determinant though, on which is the more appropriate course to follow, will be the flow of the current game. I mean, if your scouts find evidence that you're not alone on your starting landmass, then by all means, pull one (and maybe more!) bases off to start bulking your attack and defense capabilities, but so long as you have no evidence of having to share your starting landmass, I'd wait til you filled it up with new bases before starting building up the military machine.

I agree with you about Power as a SE choice....it rots 'til you build the SP that negates its negatives, and even then it's not really my first choice.

Wealth though, that's another matter....for me, I'd rather have scads of fast produced cheesy troops than a handful of really good ones....my thinking there is the ol' "all your eggs in one basket" idea, and the fact that your troops still only get one attack a turn (two if you're using rovers, three if the rovers are elites), but even my cheesy troops, with the proper defenses, can inflict significant damage...IE - A very green artillery piece sitting in my base is still gonna give your troops a hard time in the sense that they won't be able to heal between combat rounds. Also, consider the Children's Creche....totally negates Wealth's one negative AND provides me a defensive bonus to boot. My troops still won't be as good as yours, but they'll be able to hold their own.

Perhaps the most compelling argument though is the fact that my very green troops (cheaper to build, on account of Wealth's Industry bonus) will move up in morale VERY quickly if I take them out trolling for worms and stuff, giving me good solid troops bought for a discount.

-=Vel=-

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Posted by kaz on 31-03-2000 15:33:

Vel,

The extra Morale in the very early game is to keep the mindworms off. There is nothing sadder than watching a new base get nixted by two worms right off the IoD(or even worse, have them take out two facilities and pop from an established base.) Trance is great, but it doesn't help Green units very well, for some odd reason!?!?!?!?

Anyway, the minerals for those Garrison units are going to be spent anyway, as your new bases will need garrisons. The only factor is the maintenance cost of the Command Center(2, if I am not mistaken).

And another thing, I often go "pod popping" quite early, which means I can usually get my Command Center completed in a few turns(well, maybe 50% of the time). Can you agree that--in MP--this kind of gamble could pay off?

You brought up another interesting point. . . Supply Crawlers. How quickly can you get them on Blind? I always seem unable to get Industrial Automation until about 2200, which is WAY too long for my tastes. I'd be happy if it was my sixth or seventh tech(the five or six required plus Centauri Ecology) I've tried pure Build, but I usually have to get the majority of the Level Two techs before it pops up.

On a side note, I've tried playing the Data Angels purely for the fact that they can do a decent defense(Probes, and then stolen prototypes from comp. players), while only being three or four techs away from Industrial Automation. My play improves dramtically once I get Supply Crawlers, as I efficiently build SP's, as well as gain the ability to turn a size one base into an industrial giant.

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Posted by Velociryx on 31-03-2000 21:56:

Now, as to build queues...it's my personal belief that you're over-building early on, and that's hobbling your development. Consider the main reason for focusing on getting a terrain square cranking out two nutrients for your base: You want this to hasten your growth from size one to size to, in order to hasten your early game expansion. Oftentimes, you don't have to do anything special to get a terrain square with two nutrients....Nut-resources give that to you automatically (and then some, in many cases), Monoliths, and rolling/rainy squares. If you have ANY of those in your base's production radius, you're a step ahead of the game, because your former can move right into planting forests and road-building to help with expansion.

A secondary consideration for having a terrain square producing two nutrients is that it enables your bases to reach a maximum size of 3. This is huge...and there are a few subtle implications here, which I'll go into in a moment.

Now, to the central question: It's become game standard for me to have three distinct base build schemes:

My initial two bases

My "early expansion" bases (the exact number varies as I will explain, but generally bases 2-10), and then "the rest"

For my first two bases, my build queues go:
Former (seldom rushed, unless, per the game I detailed earlier, I get some quick cash...my immediate goal is to save cash for the switch to Planned, so I tend to be stingy in the VERY early game unless I'm Morgan)
Scout
Former
Pods

The early expanders get the following builds:
Former
Scout
Pods (skipping the second former)

And, here's the rub....depending on the layout of the continent, by the time I get my 8th to 10th base established, my formers are usually tending to get themselves grouped together, team-forming certain specific squares more quickly than lone wolf formers would...and, those formers tend to be on the outskirts of my territory, meaning that they're right next to the places where my newest bases will be formed up (usually they have teamed up to rapidly build the sensor array for a future base and are now doing some pre-work in anticipation of a colony pod's arrival).

At this point, when the colony pod gets to the new base site, it's time to shift gears a bit. By this point, I'm undoubtedly running Planned/Wealth, and have a fair amount of income for this point in the game, and probably have saved up a bit of cash....at this point, there's a subtle change in the order of things. No longer do my formers need to work on generating a 2 Nutrient square for new bases, because I've got the means to rush the Rec. Tanks at newly formed bases, which gives me the exact same effect as having a 2-nutrient square being worked (and the size cap for the base is still three). Therefore, my new build order is:
Rec. Tanks
Scout
Former
and probably no pods, as I'm likely running out of room on the continent).

In fact, for me, the time to tear down any farms is as soon as the base in question moves from pod building and has its Recycling Tanks constructed....the farm is no longer a necessity, because it's almost always more efficient from a time standpoint to have bases grow beyond size three via kelp farms or nutrient bonus resources....at least pre-tree-farm. So, at that point in the game, my formers are free to stop messing with farms entirely, and can devote themselves to three tasks: Forests, Roads, and Sensors.

Now, as to those other implications: In SP, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that if you want it, you've got the HGP, which means your bases at size three WILL NOT RIOT, thanks to the SP (I mean, you'd have to have something like 25 bases before you'd see drones....and at this point in the game, I doubt that'll happen), and, for bases that have access to kelp farms and nutrient bonuses (which will therefore eventually grow to size four and beyond), snagging the VW will ensure that THEY don't riot, at least til you begin nudging against the hab-complex limit (and, at or before that point, you'll be building psych-enhancing facilities (TF and RH), which will counter that as well).

Thus, if you want to pursue this basic approach for yourself, but want to avoid having to micro-manage the HELL out of your bases, speed is of the utmost importance in completing both the HGP and the VW, as it will pretty much guarantee you no drone problems (regardless of faction) up through size 6....when I'm playing this approach, I will usually speed build as many crawlers as I can specifically for those two projects (letting even the WP build suffer a lack of incoming crawlers in order to hasten those two).

-=Vel=-

**AndiD** · July 4, 2004, 05:36

Posted by Enigma on 01-04-2000 21:54:

Oh my, I am really sad I missed this whole thread. I was traveling almost the whole time, but now that I am back home I have an opportunity to talk with Vel himself.

First of all the part of your strategy that is drastically different than mine is the early crawlers. I almost never play UoP cause I think they are too easy against the comp, but when I play Morgan depending on map size I never get Industrial Automation before year 50- usually more like year 70. I build the HGP in my headquarters base or whatever base has significant bonuses after it has built its 3rd pod or so and I have hurried in rec commons and rec tanks. It takes forever but I usually start fairly early because I can crank out those pods fairly quickly, and here is how: (with Morgan)

I have a drastically different build queue for my first 3 new bases as Morgan. Since I have no where near the tech of the UoP I usually can't get centauri ecology AND SotHB.. so in a directed research game I usually shoot for biogenetics, social psych and SotHB although sometimes SotHB does not appear as a choice. But anyway I almost always get biogenetics fairly early, and hurry in recycling tanks into my 2nd base around year 5. For me this is much more effective than hurrying in formers for several reasons:

It gives me more energy which powers even more rush buying

The extra food is much the same as building a farm, it really speeds up base growth and to me my colony pods are produced when the base grows, base growth is the biggest factor.

The extra mineral helps support a defense, which as Morgan you really need due to the support penalty.

PLUS in a recycling tanks vs former comparison the recycling tanks affect your base for 4-5 extra turns since you have to move the former and then it takes a while for the terraforming to come in.

Anyway this gives me very good expansion. I usually rely almost entirely on unity rovers or the like for defense. In the early game my production consists almost entirely of formers, tanks, and pods. I try cram in as many bases as possible before my neighbors get mad.

I usually have only 1 unit per 2-3 bases, and because of this my bases have no police and riot at size 2. I keep my population as low as possible, only my first 2 bases are larger and they have recreation commons for when they grow to size 3.

My SP priority is generally- HGP, WP, Empath guild, Command nexus and PTS in that order.

The HGP helps my expand as fast as possible, which is a major priority. As Morgan in the midgame I have tons of cash and if I have only a small number of bases nowhere to spend it. But if I have 20-30 bases I build a crawler or two and hurry in tree farms.

But again I noticed your strategy calls for really early crawler building. I usually would rather build another pod than a crawler. Once I get the HGP I still frequently have size 2 bases that riot, and one my expansion is really crankin' I have size 1 drone bases. I just hurry in a recreation commons or ignore it, that base is still giving me 6 energy or so when I am FM/Wealth.

Rather than build many crawlers and use them to increase per turn minerals I usually just build a crawler or two at non SP bases, and from then on upgrade my crawlers to trance synthemetal. 90 credits to gain 60 minerals, not a bad ratio at all. A few of these help me to get the PTS. I almost always miss the WP and the empath guild, and I usually opt for the command nexus after those 2 are gone.

As far as SMAX is concerned the planetary energy grid is great, especially since none of the AI's seem to eager to get it. This really increases my energy over all, plus I gain a lot of energy by disbanding existing banks, plus it saves a lot of time in expansion.

Once I get eco engineering I make a lot more crawlers. A crawler on a mined rocky square gives me 4.. which is 2x better than anything pre eco engineering. It is especially troublesome having only 5 or 6 squares to harvest from in each base radius, it makes having the WP essential to speed terraforming.

Generally my build order for bases beyond my first 10 is- Rec tanks, formers, rec commons, creche or crawler, tree farm. Once I have 15 tree farms installed hybrid forests are no challenge whatsoever to hurry in.

My goal in having so many bases is to make my exponential growth period to last as long as possible. If I made only 10 bases my exponential growth would be the short period where I am hurrying in tree farms and hybrid forests. After that I have a lot of cash and nowhere to spend it on. By having a constant pool of what I call "raw energy"-

that is bases that do not have many facilities and would have a better gain to cost ratio than building very advanced facilities in older bases- I can have exponential growth for a longer period of time.

I have saves for my ideal version of this kind of development. I had a lot of land, which is rather rare, so I really had no problem building 25 bases. I was very lucky and had the WP and had 40 minerals or so in my HQ by 120. 120 was a kind of a landmark year, I had an income of 500 which is much much more than I had gotten in most previous games. At that point it makes no difference what I do, but just for the heck of it I build an energy park to see what it can do. I ended up transcending around year 2265, which for a newbie isn't bad at all. At 20% econ and 80% labs I had 3000 credits or so. I had so many formers (130) that each turn became incredibly tedious... still an exercise in showing how pathetic the AI can be. The AI never got above missle/plasma.

I usually prefer a map with midlevel rockiness because mines really help develop my infrastructure.

As far as military is concerned I have one major thought- either be completely pacifistic or very aggresive. Sometimes this turns games into more hybrid style. If there is someone on my continent I will just crank out 10 impact rovers- get them close to the edge of my territory- switch to fundy/simple/simple, and crush him. Then I will disband every military unit and ignore defense for a while. Part of this is due to my Morganite/democracy tendencies which is necesary to keep inefficiency drones low, the other part is that the AI is quite incompetent at launching naval assaults.

Anyway any tips Vel?

Back to the crawler thread, people here have said that a gas attacker should be easily vanquished by a SAM defender, but this is not the case. The +100% sam bonus only applies when attacking, when a unit scrambles (the only way to defend against gas choppers in this case) it defends with it's weapons against the enemy weapons, no sam modifier is applied. Unless the chopper takes a lot of damage from long distance travel the gas bonus should knock the defender out of the sky.

Garrisons still rule though. I once was pleasantly surprised when the AI-Yang actually offered a kind of resistance to a late game invasion by me. He had 20 fusion jets stockpiled and actually kamikazied several to take back a base. Plus a barrage of conventional missles wherever I tried to keep a PB in a base for 1 turn. Eventually I hurried in every defense modifier known to man, with results as follows:

I had an elite AAA probability garrison in a base with aerospace complex, tachyon field, geostationary defense pod, sensor, and of course the inherent base defense bonus. It's overall defense power was 56.25, it took several conventional missles to destroy each garrison!

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Posted by Velociryx on 06-04-2000 07:24:

Hey Enigma! Just ventured back this way and read your postings....I'm gonna give your expansion method a go (and besides, I dearly LOVE playing Morgan....'tis a good excuse to fire up the big-yellow-mulch-machine) and see how it works for me....will write back later with the results!

-=Vel=-

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Posted by Enigma on 06-04-2000 16:10:

Thanks Vel. Well like I said I tried your strategy and it was alarmingly more powerful than anything I have done with Morgan. My strat is just a shabby excuse for a strat, although it seems to work well for Morgan..

I have heard from several people about the 5 on a dice approach, of which you are an advocate. Could you possibly send me a save file where this actually made a difference before year 150? It has potential but just seems awfully ackward in the early game.

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Posted by Velociryx on 07-04-2000 06:40:

Hey guy....and you're absolutely right...it really IS awkward in the early game...the strategy doesn't truly hit stride 'til the bases on the fringe have hybrid forests in place (and thus, a whole MESS of excess food), but that that point, you get a monster science base (max size, all thinkers), and a "punishment sphere" base, in the sense that, with no workers, even if you are running market, troops assigned to this base (clean, of course) won't cause the base to riot. Sadly, the investment for this setup is pretty steep, which is the downside of the plan...the upshot though, is that when you reach the transcendent veil and are ready to build the last two projects in the game, you can re-work your base production, and get the last two projects essentially for free, having already dumped the mineral production into enough crawlers to finish it in a single turn by mass-disbanding them.

I don't know that I have any of the old test games anymore, but I'll start another with that approach and send it along. Any faction preference? (Morgan, perhaps?) And, do you want an every fifty year save, or just the 150 mark?

-=Vel=-

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Posted by Enigma on 07-04-2000 18:47:

Sure every 50 years sounds fine. I have heard you say that you crawler food from your other cities to the main thinker city in each 5, couldn't that take 1000's of minerals just to make a small number of them?

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Posted by bondetamp on 08-04-2000 06:50:

I've never understood the advantage of using crawlers to ship nuts from one base to another. Wouldn't it be far more efficient to build a farm+condenser on a spot and use a crawler to harvest four nutrients from it?

I mean, by using crawlers to ship from one city to another, you only get *one* nutrient. And you even take a nutrient away from another base!

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Posted by Velociryx on 08-04-2000 22:46:

Hey Bond....and you're quite right....there ARE more efficient ways of achieving the same end, but....it SP, me and the group I play with frequently are always trying to come up with new and inventive uses for various units....now, it's true that this particular plan doesn't look very efficient on the surface of it, but the real advantage is not in the act of crawling the food itself....the real goods come at the end of the game (when you can build several late game projects on the strength of crawlers alone--that you've presumedly built at a discount). Another advantage is that you've got a base which can be made all but immune to attack (should anything slip through the bases surrounding it), as each of the crawlers sitting inside can be armored up to defend (and, when cashed in, you get the full value for them, which makes spending the money on their armor a good investment, at least in the sense that you will (eventually) get it all back, plus the security in the meantime). As to pure efficiency though, you're right....it's not....and not something I'd use in an MP environment, but....kinda cool to mess with

-=Vel=-

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Posted by bondetamp on 10-04-2000 08:38:

Hullo, Vel!

Hmmm, I suppose building some extra units could solve the defence issue. I mean, saving minerals by not building military doesn't sound all that spiff, when you at the same time is loosing 5-7 minerals every round by keeping your crawler indoors. And, as you can get half the mineral cost back, and the military units can be equipped with guns to go into a more active defence, I think the cost is reasonable. Another thing is that I allways try to avoid upgrading the reactors on my armoured crawlers, as this usually makes them cheaper, mineral vice, and therefore less efficient as food for the SPs.

As for being ready available for building SPs, I think using roads and tubes could solve this. Besides, there is no reason to place them /far/ from the city. With a reasonable infrastructure, it shouldn't matter all that much whether the crawler is inside the base or somewhere on the other side of the continent.

Lately I have started to make more active use of my crawlers. The only terrains I usually work with citizens are boreholes. Farm + condenser gives four nuts from the very start (i.e. when you finish WP) and nothing else. Crawlers on these and extra librarians in the base give food for the brain as well as for the stomach. An extreme version of this philosophy can be found in the tread ‘specialist cities’ or http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum31/...tml?date=16:09, as we call it. I find that by building boreholes within the base radius, and mines, farms and solar collectors wherever I can fit one (energy parks some where, farms between the boreholes and mines wherever, and using as many crawlers I can, I have good income, no drone riots, good defence (as the enemy is swamped by crawlers between each base) and ready access to those SP minerals.

All though I see, to a degree what you are aiming at, I can honestly not understand any reason for using this tactics. Maybe if the continent is full, so you have no more room for crawlers, but even then it’s only a short term plan, as it is always possible to expand your empire.

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