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Googlie
When I play Morgan my usuall style is (Transcend level - that's what we'll be at in this game):
On founding Industries, let the Synthmetal Sentry get built - same with base # 2
Research cent Ecol
If in those first 2 bases I can grow to size 2 before a colony pod, then I select the CP, otherwise I'll build a scout (5 turns, ususally) then a colony pod
Typically I get cent ecol during the cp's build period. I rush build once the pop reaches 2 if the first row+1 have been filled (around 46 - 50 to rush) Continue producing CP's at both bases. Change research to Social Psych (beelining for Ind Auto at this stage is folly, as often you'll end up with doctors instead of workers - or a 30% psych allocation - to keep drones at bay. We'll need rec commons soon anyway, so why not just have themm available as needed)
Now the risky part:
upon founding bases # 3 and 4, I choose a former, and rush build to 1 turn (cost to complete minus 2 x minerals from that base) then after the former I switch to either a synthsentinal or scout depending on how many turns (ie how good a mineral output that base has. Former goes to nearest useless tile and plants forest (useless being arid, or anything under 500 meters, especially low river)
At some point we'll need 2 units per base (for worm defense) - If I'm playing with "average" or "abundant" native life I'll often send the extra scout from bases # 1 and 2 with the colony pods and this buys time while the local sentry is being produced.
The key here is to maximize the number of cheap formers that can be produced using the ten free mineral boxes that simple or dem gives (we lose that with FM or Wealth)
Of course during this time the independent scout is roaming and pod popping (I always pop pods in the base radius, never - at this stage - outside, as that pod will eventually be in a base radius). Note that the odds of a mindworm - or other deleterious effect - happening with a popped pod in a base radius are something like 1 in 24 (per Prima Guide - or maybe per CEO Bernard's research in the old OWO forums)
At some point in the first 2 bases the pop grows faster than the CP's can be built or rushed (these 2 bases don't have a former planting trees, yet) so in my games it's when I either bite the bullet and build a rec commons or build a former first then the rec commons (see the science section for an outline of my thoughts on techs to research)
So the debate really is the age-old one
* A back-up scout in each base for added mindworm protection (can be upgraded later when we are awash with funds
* a former to get the base's minerals up and running
* a facility (rec commons and/or recycling tanks
* a colony pod to generate population growth
AndiD
Well, my first two cents here (and speaking of about one month SMAC/X experience, too :-D):
CentEcol is also my first tech, I build a scout in first base, start a pod but switch over to a former and rush him as soon as available. Second base is only founded after there is CentEcol to invest the 10 free minerals into a immediately rushed former...
Whether I rush a former first and build a scout in new bases afterwards depends whether my freebie scout is pod popping nearby (or something else underway in fungus terrain).
If there's no fungus in 2 spaces nearby (or just-visited fungus), why bothering with a garrison at all for the first 3-4 turns?
And why 1-2-1 SynthSents in the first turn of each new base in the first place? My first garrison always becomes a 1-1-1 (later 1-1t-1), since it is about turn advantage, right? Defense against worms is the same and if enemies should come along, money allows usually a quick upgrade. (though I haven't seen a human controlled Spartan rover rush yet...)
I've also played "abundant" quite a few times and practically never had trouble with only one base defender.
Depending on the available nutrient resources I build former, scout, pod (2+ nuts via special resource, rainy or farm) or former, scout, RecTank, pod (if <2 nuts) until the continent is filled up or I get company... except:
I'm usually beelining for the HGP as early as possible (one good minerals base, former underway, scout in place, RecTanks, RecCommons, HGP) to facilitate a very early switch to Market (one drone more because of market, but no problem anymore because of HGP).
As soon as I get RecTanks (haven't played directed research yet) it is always a RecTank first, then a RecCommons, even if it means a doctor for a few turns. Exception are sea bases of course.
jtsisyoda
I go very thin on scouts... just enough to explore a little. As Kody has posted on Poly, having a base reduces the chance of nearby worms. So, build a bunch of empty bases instead of building a couple and filling them with scouts.
Edit The other reason to go thin is that in base squares, formers defend as well as scouts! In an emergency, stop building that road, and hop into the base.
AndiD
Reply to : jtsisyoda
In my experience worms are mostly triggered by exploration or formers moving ahead, making roads for CPs (I mostly played abundant so far) so mostly the outer bases are endangered. If you've got a patch of fungus running directly to your base, a worm can move from three squares out directly in front of the base.
A good solution would be perhaps to move the garrison scout along with the pod => no production in new founded base AND pod protection.
Disadvantage: If not yet running FM, that garrison leaving creates a possible drone.
And whenever I remember having moved a former into a base to defend against a yet undamaged worm, I remember it destroyed...
jtsisyoda
Well, in the early early game, pre-2114, I think, worms are super-weak, and formers should be able to hold them off in bases. But killing worms for cash is preferable when possible. Often you can accept the former casualty to delay the worm, while building a scout which then beats the worm the next turn. Yes, it bites losing the former, but you went X number of turns in Y number of cities without supporting a scout. That's X times Y minerals saved, plus overall you build fewer scouts and more formers. It's a calculated risk. Personally I rarely have trouble with worms taking out cities, when playing with average worm life (the setting we'll probably use in this game).
Impaler
What do yall think of early rushing of Recycling tanks using thouse 100 Seed Credits. I find it alows you to keep your first 2 bases cranking out pods (or anything else) very fast. With a little road networking I soon have Pods running down the length of the roads as fast as their being produced in the core and expanding the peripery, they then make formers and or scouts and further expand the road network for the next pod coming down the line.
AndiD
Reply to : Impaler
I've tried it a while ago and came to the conclusion that without pod-popping luck you will become short on credits shortly (for rushing pods when growth is quicker than minerals or formers on founding new bases).
Second problem: What you may gain in growth and minerals in the early game you probably will lose when there are no roads for the finished pods (or you build RecTanks, Formers, Pods and lose time again to get more bases). And it's our base square (2/1/5+) that makes the difference getting up the tech tree...
Third problem: Playing on the large map, you can "only" go up to seven bases anyway (first b-drone limit plus 1) and you need at least the HGP (with IA for crawler feeding) afterwards to expand further under Market.
Fourth problem (and probably the most fundamental): It seems that Biogen could well be moved even one tech behind IA in favour of early Flex and getting sea pods and intelligence data. (see thread in the Research Department)
Of course you could trade something else but what? CentEcol (formers)? IndEcon (Market)?
But maybe I'm totally wrong and a comparison game (see Boardroom Annex) will yield surprising results with early rushed RecTanks?
Chaunk
AndiD, I think your ananylsis is good. The only time I'd think it would be a good idea to get rec tanks there would be if we manage to get a start with no nut bonuses or rainy squares. Then the extra nut is vital for growth (11 turns not 21).
endgame
Googlie Says:
Dem has the support penalty doesn't it?
I like to start both bases building ME, research IndEco, switch to FM then research biogen and rush 2 tanks. Social psych next, since Cent Eco is off the menu.
jtsisyoda
The question of roads vs. Rec Tanks is a tricky one. It depends. If you have rivers to shuttle your CP's, obviously an RT is better than a former, because a river is almost as good as a road. Without a river, if you're putting your new city two squares away from where the CP is produced, you can gain two "city-turns" and save two minerals of support by having a road. However, RT's very often mean the CP is produced more than two turns faster than without an RT, so the RT is still better. But as you 1) start to send CP's farther out, 2) start to need a farm here and there for your two nutrient squares, and 3) need forests (workers and crawlers), the Former becomes absolutely critical, while the RT is just a nice boon. With close base spacing, IMO the numbers usually favor the RT over the former in most super-early (pre-2115?) situations.
I recommend making the final decision based on specific information we get after opening the first turn.
AndiD
What about the cash shortfall? RTs are expensive, even for Morgan, with unboosted starting positions (as hinted in some ACDG3 thread at Apo) and you gain a lot in rushing every pod (when growth > minerals), former (25 cr/base) and maybe the first transport foil.
That is, when you don't get lucky about resupply unity pods...
When there are no 2+ nut squares in the first base ranges, RTs are very vital indeed. It would just ruin our tech strategy (pushing IA even further away or sacrificing early Flex?)...
The final decision will be made anyway if we see our starting position but we won't have too much time by then (since either CentEcol or Biogen will have to be the first tech choice in the 2nd turn).
endgame
I usually start the Merchant Exchange at both bases, rushing rec tanks when biogenetics arrives.
On a huge map, I'll get industrial economics first and switch to FM, while still building the ME at both bases. Then biogenetics will take around 3 turns, so not much is lost. Next is usually social psych, since cent. eco is not available.
jtsisyoda
AndiD, if there's no cash to buy RT's, there's no sense tying up the build queue. That's why I had the disclaimer of pre-2115, when cash is still available.
AndiD
So is this perhaps something we should try in the "Wait Game"? Or would it be more interesting to try "only" early Flex and see how that fares? Maybe depending on our starting pos (2+ nuts)?
The tech problem with Biogen first goes even further: The third (and even more the fourth) tech will be substantially more expensive than the 2nd one (with still having 2 (3) bases).
So either CentEcol (roads=3-4 turns*2+ pods) or IndEcon (FM=quicker research) will be a pretty expensive (= late) tech. I didn't see the 2 extra energy from the 2 RTs being a real match for early FM of 3, 4 bases even over a short period of time (till 4-5th tech).
Depending on the faction starting slot it becomes even worse thanks to the mod3-rule: Choose either Biogen-CentEcol-cr*p-IndEcon or Biogen-IndEcon-cr*p-CentEcol with cr*p being either Doc:Mob, InfNet, or SocPsych.
These are nice techs of course but waiting 5-8 _extra_ turns for _huge_ benefits (see above) isn't really an option. (Had that in my current PBEM as _first_ tech choice, now that hurts!)
Did a test game of course but mindworms were eating the same base two times till 2130 and I hadn't have time for a replay so nothing really comparable in form of facts. :-(
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jtsisyoda
You mentioned the ME->RT switch twice, endgame. We're not ignoring you, I promise. ME->RT is a respected strategy advocated by Ogie, and I've used it. Usually Biogen is researched first, to minimize the wasted minerals. I sometimes prefer Ind Econ first and build a scout. You're basically combining the two... it loses a few more minerals, but it might be the fastest way to get both benefits. It's definitely worth calculating when we open the turn.
jtsisyoda
AndiD, I confess the mod-3 rule and tech availability calculations are currently beyond my "pain tolerance". I'm working on it, though.
Chaunk
I'm all for trying an early Doc:Flex in the mini game. It has more advantages too, as then if we decide it won't work then when we go for the HGP earlier, people will expect it less...
Anything that pushes IndAuto too far down the tech list is a real nightmare too and should be avoided IMHO.
arginine
My early game experience shows morganites can not afford to rush build recycling tanks ~40-50 EC in both bases AND pay the 40 energy to change to FM.
I go C.E. first, and even kick up the research rate for it, then rush build terraformers. First base is set to colony pod, then switch & rush build colony pod. If those terraformers are started very early, each of the new base sites can be pre-terraformed. Recycling tanks also make a base grow quickly. I used to be pro tank, but getting a forest quickly is nice. Recycling tanks have the side effect of making a base continue to grow faster. With a standard base, a farmed rolling moist, & a forest. You can have pop growth in 10 years, but 15 years CP to build CP. Rush build for 25 energy. If you go rec. tanks, you can not afford to rush build, and you can not get the farm or forest. Also, when done, the former can help other bases. Furthermore, the serious money comes in with IA, and you get the industry bonus there as well. RTs just lose in my mind. Of course, that is only under typical conditions...
Have scout explore, and pop pod until 2114, then maybe have it be a garision. Hopefully another unit was found by then. Free units are used for exploring, and stay away from pods, and leery of entering fungus. We want to keep the unit alive, and get as much mineral free and drone free exploration from it.
At 6 bases, IA should be reached soon after. I could either go HGP, or grow to 12 bases and then HGP. Having more than 6 bases requires pscyh. I have gone straight HGP successsfully, and it always gets it against AI. I've had less luck with 12 bases, but 12 bases would be preferable. As, we could go HGP, in one round, then PTS in the next. PTS would require 10 bases, leaving 2 free, for say building ships..., or more colony pods.
I think we start out with synthmetal sintenels already prototyped.
I am for former and then colony pods. If we really need drone control, we can use psych. Hopefully, we will have size 1 bases until we get HGP & PTS, if we can get both.
Once we get IA & biogenics, maybe ethical calc, it might be worth going doc: mob, flex, then have 1 base (maybe 2) crank out transports for exploration. Each faction found is a way to get tech (get those military techs on the cheap) and those morgan friendly trade routes.
jtsisyoda
Instead of psych, for our first two or four bases, we should nervestaple. We won't meet anyone in the first thirty years, probably, so the sanctions won't mean anything.
With Rec tanks, you don't have to rush the next CP. The base grows so quickly and pumps out so many minerals that it still finishes about as quickly. The tank pays for itself in a relative blink, and never stops returning dividends. Holding cash to rush formers 10-15 years down the road guarantees you won't get a return on your investment before then. I'm not saying formers suck, just that tanks are better if you have the cash. With early FM, the cash will roll in just fine to replace what you spent on tanks.
AndiD
Reply to : jtsisyoda
Early FM means no nervestapling... (Do the other factions (incl. AI) get notice about nervestapling when you haven't met anyone yet?)
Correct on FM-- we can nervestaple right before the switch, as long as the base will grow in the next ten years we get at least some benefit. Since we'd switch as soon as the tech/SE notification comes up, we'd staple when the F2 labs screen says one turn remaining. The benefits of super-early nervestapling favor biogen first type strategies. This is why I love Morgan. He has several great strategies to choose from, and variations thereof, like arginine's sequence.
endgame
Whoops about 2x posting the rectank switch I read about. I will try not to be a SpamMan in future. Could someone explain early nervestapling?
jtsisyoda
When a base grows to size two on transcend, it will riot unless there are police. If you don't want to waste resources on police, you either have to switch your worker to a doctor just before the city grows, or you have to nervestaple. With Morgan's cash, you can usually rush a CP the turn after the city hits size two, so nervestapling may only gain the resources of one worker for one turn, but every little bit counts. If your city has enough nutrients to grow back to size two again within the ten year nervestaple period, you gain that small amount again. If you spent all your cash on RT's and can't rush the CP right away, you get a little more benefit from nervestapling. The tech strategy of Biogen first then Ind Econ benefits more from this because you grow faster and you go FM later.
BTW, sorry, in my last post I meant endgame's sequence, not arginine's.
When I play Morgan my usuall style is (Transcend level - that's what we'll be at in this game):
On founding Industries, let the Synthmetal Sentry get built - same with base # 2
Research cent Ecol
If in those first 2 bases I can grow to size 2 before a colony pod, then I select the CP, otherwise I'll build a scout (5 turns, ususally) then a colony pod
Typically I get cent ecol during the cp's build period. I rush build once the pop reaches 2 if the first row+1 have been filled (around 46 - 50 to rush) Continue producing CP's at both bases. Change research to Social Psych (beelining for Ind Auto at this stage is folly, as often you'll end up with doctors instead of workers - or a 30% psych allocation - to keep drones at bay. We'll need rec commons soon anyway, so why not just have themm available as needed)
Now the risky part:
upon founding bases # 3 and 4, I choose a former, and rush build to 1 turn (cost to complete minus 2 x minerals from that base) then after the former I switch to either a synthsentinal or scout depending on how many turns (ie how good a mineral output that base has. Former goes to nearest useless tile and plants forest (useless being arid, or anything under 500 meters, especially low river)
At some point we'll need 2 units per base (for worm defense) - If I'm playing with "average" or "abundant" native life I'll often send the extra scout from bases # 1 and 2 with the colony pods and this buys time while the local sentry is being produced.
The key here is to maximize the number of cheap formers that can be produced using the ten free mineral boxes that simple or dem gives (we lose that with FM or Wealth)
Of course during this time the independent scout is roaming and pod popping (I always pop pods in the base radius, never - at this stage - outside, as that pod will eventually be in a base radius). Note that the odds of a mindworm - or other deleterious effect - happening with a popped pod in a base radius are something like 1 in 24 (per Prima Guide - or maybe per CEO Bernard's research in the old OWO forums)
At some point in the first 2 bases the pop grows faster than the CP's can be built or rushed (these 2 bases don't have a former planting trees, yet) so in my games it's when I either bite the bullet and build a rec commons or build a former first then the rec commons (see the science section for an outline of my thoughts on techs to research)
So the debate really is the age-old one
* A back-up scout in each base for added mindworm protection (can be upgraded later when we are awash with funds
* a former to get the base's minerals up and running
* a facility (rec commons and/or recycling tanks
* a colony pod to generate population growth
AndiD
Well, my first two cents here (and speaking of about one month SMAC/X experience, too :-D):
CentEcol is also my first tech, I build a scout in first base, start a pod but switch over to a former and rush him as soon as available. Second base is only founded after there is CentEcol to invest the 10 free minerals into a immediately rushed former...
Whether I rush a former first and build a scout in new bases afterwards depends whether my freebie scout is pod popping nearby (or something else underway in fungus terrain).
If there's no fungus in 2 spaces nearby (or just-visited fungus), why bothering with a garrison at all for the first 3-4 turns?
And why 1-2-1 SynthSents in the first turn of each new base in the first place? My first garrison always becomes a 1-1-1 (later 1-1t-1), since it is about turn advantage, right? Defense against worms is the same and if enemies should come along, money allows usually a quick upgrade. (though I haven't seen a human controlled Spartan rover rush yet...)
I've also played "abundant" quite a few times and practically never had trouble with only one base defender.
Depending on the available nutrient resources I build former, scout, pod (2+ nuts via special resource, rainy or farm) or former, scout, RecTank, pod (if <2 nuts) until the continent is filled up or I get company... except:
I'm usually beelining for the HGP as early as possible (one good minerals base, former underway, scout in place, RecTanks, RecCommons, HGP) to facilitate a very early switch to Market (one drone more because of market, but no problem anymore because of HGP).
As soon as I get RecTanks (haven't played directed research yet) it is always a RecTank first, then a RecCommons, even if it means a doctor for a few turns. Exception are sea bases of course.
jtsisyoda
I go very thin on scouts... just enough to explore a little. As Kody has posted on Poly, having a base reduces the chance of nearby worms. So, build a bunch of empty bases instead of building a couple and filling them with scouts.
Edit The other reason to go thin is that in base squares, formers defend as well as scouts! In an emergency, stop building that road, and hop into the base.
AndiD
Reply to : jtsisyoda
I go very thin on scouts... just enough to explore a little. As Kody has posted on Poly, having a base reduces the chance of nearby worms. So, build a bunch of empty bases instead of building a couple and filling them with scouts. The other reason to go thin is that in base squares, formers defend as well as scouts! In an emergency, stop building that road, and hop into the base.
A good solution would be perhaps to move the garrison scout along with the pod => no production in new founded base AND pod protection.
Disadvantage: If not yet running FM, that garrison leaving creates a possible drone.
And whenever I remember having moved a former into a base to defend against a yet undamaged worm, I remember it destroyed...
jtsisyoda
Well, in the early early game, pre-2114, I think, worms are super-weak, and formers should be able to hold them off in bases. But killing worms for cash is preferable when possible. Often you can accept the former casualty to delay the worm, while building a scout which then beats the worm the next turn. Yes, it bites losing the former, but you went X number of turns in Y number of cities without supporting a scout. That's X times Y minerals saved, plus overall you build fewer scouts and more formers. It's a calculated risk. Personally I rarely have trouble with worms taking out cities, when playing with average worm life (the setting we'll probably use in this game).
Impaler
What do yall think of early rushing of Recycling tanks using thouse 100 Seed Credits. I find it alows you to keep your first 2 bases cranking out pods (or anything else) very fast. With a little road networking I soon have Pods running down the length of the roads as fast as their being produced in the core and expanding the peripery, they then make formers and or scouts and further expand the road network for the next pod coming down the line.
AndiD
Reply to : Impaler
What do yall think of early rushing of Recycling tanks using thouse 100 Seed Credits. I find it alows you to keep your first 2 bases cranking out pods (or anything else) very fast. With a little road networking I soon have Pods running down the length of the roads as fast as their being produced in the core and expanding the peripery, they then make formers and or scouts and further expand the road network for the next pod coming down the line.
Second problem: What you may gain in growth and minerals in the early game you probably will lose when there are no roads for the finished pods (or you build RecTanks, Formers, Pods and lose time again to get more bases). And it's our base square (2/1/5+) that makes the difference getting up the tech tree...
Third problem: Playing on the large map, you can "only" go up to seven bases anyway (first b-drone limit plus 1) and you need at least the HGP (with IA for crawler feeding) afterwards to expand further under Market.
Fourth problem (and probably the most fundamental): It seems that Biogen could well be moved even one tech behind IA in favour of early Flex and getting sea pods and intelligence data. (see thread in the Research Department)
Of course you could trade something else but what? CentEcol (formers)? IndEcon (Market)?
But maybe I'm totally wrong and a comparison game (see Boardroom Annex) will yield surprising results with early rushed RecTanks?
Chaunk
AndiD, I think your ananylsis is good. The only time I'd think it would be a good idea to get rec tanks there would be if we manage to get a start with no nut bonuses or rainy squares. Then the extra nut is vital for growth (11 turns not 21).
endgame
Googlie Says:
The key here is to maximize the number of cheap formers that can be produced using the ten free mineral boxes that simple or dem gives (we lose that with FM or Wealth)
I like to start both bases building ME, research IndEco, switch to FM then research biogen and rush 2 tanks. Social psych next, since Cent Eco is off the menu.
jtsisyoda
The question of roads vs. Rec Tanks is a tricky one. It depends. If you have rivers to shuttle your CP's, obviously an RT is better than a former, because a river is almost as good as a road. Without a river, if you're putting your new city two squares away from where the CP is produced, you can gain two "city-turns" and save two minerals of support by having a road. However, RT's very often mean the CP is produced more than two turns faster than without an RT, so the RT is still better. But as you 1) start to send CP's farther out, 2) start to need a farm here and there for your two nutrient squares, and 3) need forests (workers and crawlers), the Former becomes absolutely critical, while the RT is just a nice boon. With close base spacing, IMO the numbers usually favor the RT over the former in most super-early (pre-2115?) situations.
I recommend making the final decision based on specific information we get after opening the first turn.
AndiD
What about the cash shortfall? RTs are expensive, even for Morgan, with unboosted starting positions (as hinted in some ACDG3 thread at Apo) and you gain a lot in rushing every pod (when growth > minerals), former (25 cr/base) and maybe the first transport foil.
That is, when you don't get lucky about resupply unity pods...
When there are no 2+ nut squares in the first base ranges, RTs are very vital indeed. It would just ruin our tech strategy (pushing IA even further away or sacrificing early Flex?)...
The final decision will be made anyway if we see our starting position but we won't have too much time by then (since either CentEcol or Biogen will have to be the first tech choice in the 2nd turn).
endgame
I usually start the Merchant Exchange at both bases, rushing rec tanks when biogenetics arrives.
On a huge map, I'll get industrial economics first and switch to FM, while still building the ME at both bases. Then biogenetics will take around 3 turns, so not much is lost. Next is usually social psych, since cent. eco is not available.
jtsisyoda
AndiD, if there's no cash to buy RT's, there's no sense tying up the build queue. That's why I had the disclaimer of pre-2115, when cash is still available.
AndiD
So is this perhaps something we should try in the "Wait Game"? Or would it be more interesting to try "only" early Flex and see how that fares? Maybe depending on our starting pos (2+ nuts)?
The tech problem with Biogen first goes even further: The third (and even more the fourth) tech will be substantially more expensive than the 2nd one (with still having 2 (3) bases).
So either CentEcol (roads=3-4 turns*2+ pods) or IndEcon (FM=quicker research) will be a pretty expensive (= late) tech. I didn't see the 2 extra energy from the 2 RTs being a real match for early FM of 3, 4 bases even over a short period of time (till 4-5th tech).
Depending on the faction starting slot it becomes even worse thanks to the mod3-rule: Choose either Biogen-CentEcol-cr*p-IndEcon or Biogen-IndEcon-cr*p-CentEcol with cr*p being either Doc:Mob, InfNet, or SocPsych.
These are nice techs of course but waiting 5-8 _extra_ turns for _huge_ benefits (see above) isn't really an option. (Had that in my current PBEM as _first_ tech choice, now that hurts!)
Did a test game of course but mindworms were eating the same base two times till 2130 and I hadn't have time for a replay so nothing really comparable in form of facts. :-(
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jtsisyoda
You mentioned the ME->RT switch twice, endgame. We're not ignoring you, I promise. ME->RT is a respected strategy advocated by Ogie, and I've used it. Usually Biogen is researched first, to minimize the wasted minerals. I sometimes prefer Ind Econ first and build a scout. You're basically combining the two... it loses a few more minerals, but it might be the fastest way to get both benefits. It's definitely worth calculating when we open the turn.
jtsisyoda
AndiD, I confess the mod-3 rule and tech availability calculations are currently beyond my "pain tolerance". I'm working on it, though.
Chaunk
I'm all for trying an early Doc:Flex in the mini game. It has more advantages too, as then if we decide it won't work then when we go for the HGP earlier, people will expect it less...
Anything that pushes IndAuto too far down the tech list is a real nightmare too and should be avoided IMHO.
arginine
My early game experience shows morganites can not afford to rush build recycling tanks ~40-50 EC in both bases AND pay the 40 energy to change to FM.
I go C.E. first, and even kick up the research rate for it, then rush build terraformers. First base is set to colony pod, then switch & rush build colony pod. If those terraformers are started very early, each of the new base sites can be pre-terraformed. Recycling tanks also make a base grow quickly. I used to be pro tank, but getting a forest quickly is nice. Recycling tanks have the side effect of making a base continue to grow faster. With a standard base, a farmed rolling moist, & a forest. You can have pop growth in 10 years, but 15 years CP to build CP. Rush build for 25 energy. If you go rec. tanks, you can not afford to rush build, and you can not get the farm or forest. Also, when done, the former can help other bases. Furthermore, the serious money comes in with IA, and you get the industry bonus there as well. RTs just lose in my mind. Of course, that is only under typical conditions...
Have scout explore, and pop pod until 2114, then maybe have it be a garision. Hopefully another unit was found by then. Free units are used for exploring, and stay away from pods, and leery of entering fungus. We want to keep the unit alive, and get as much mineral free and drone free exploration from it.
At 6 bases, IA should be reached soon after. I could either go HGP, or grow to 12 bases and then HGP. Having more than 6 bases requires pscyh. I have gone straight HGP successsfully, and it always gets it against AI. I've had less luck with 12 bases, but 12 bases would be preferable. As, we could go HGP, in one round, then PTS in the next. PTS would require 10 bases, leaving 2 free, for say building ships..., or more colony pods.
I think we start out with synthmetal sintenels already prototyped.
I am for former and then colony pods. If we really need drone control, we can use psych. Hopefully, we will have size 1 bases until we get HGP & PTS, if we can get both.
Once we get IA & biogenics, maybe ethical calc, it might be worth going doc: mob, flex, then have 1 base (maybe 2) crank out transports for exploration. Each faction found is a way to get tech (get those military techs on the cheap) and those morgan friendly trade routes.
jtsisyoda
Instead of psych, for our first two or four bases, we should nervestaple. We won't meet anyone in the first thirty years, probably, so the sanctions won't mean anything.
With Rec tanks, you don't have to rush the next CP. The base grows so quickly and pumps out so many minerals that it still finishes about as quickly. The tank pays for itself in a relative blink, and never stops returning dividends. Holding cash to rush formers 10-15 years down the road guarantees you won't get a return on your investment before then. I'm not saying formers suck, just that tanks are better if you have the cash. With early FM, the cash will roll in just fine to replace what you spent on tanks.
AndiD
Reply to : jtsisyoda
Instead of psych, for our first two or four bases, we should nervestaple. We won't meet anyone in the first thirty years, probably, so the sanctions won't mean anything.
Correct on FM-- we can nervestaple right before the switch, as long as the base will grow in the next ten years we get at least some benefit. Since we'd switch as soon as the tech/SE notification comes up, we'd staple when the F2 labs screen says one turn remaining. The benefits of super-early nervestapling favor biogen first type strategies. This is why I love Morgan. He has several great strategies to choose from, and variations thereof, like arginine's sequence.
endgame
Whoops about 2x posting the rectank switch I read about. I will try not to be a SpamMan in future. Could someone explain early nervestapling?
jtsisyoda
When a base grows to size two on transcend, it will riot unless there are police. If you don't want to waste resources on police, you either have to switch your worker to a doctor just before the city grows, or you have to nervestaple. With Morgan's cash, you can usually rush a CP the turn after the city hits size two, so nervestapling may only gain the resources of one worker for one turn, but every little bit counts. If your city has enough nutrients to grow back to size two again within the ten year nervestaple period, you gain that small amount again. If you spent all your cash on RT's and can't rush the CP right away, you get a little more benefit from nervestapling. The tech strategy of Biogen first then Ind Econ benefits more from this because you grow faster and you go FM later.
BTW, sorry, in my last post I meant endgame's sequence, not arginine's.
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