Archive: Pre-game tech research discussion

[AndiD]

Googlie
Techs that I research in the early game depend on whether I'm playing single player or PBEM, and who the opposition is

I always make Cent Empathy my first tech, to get early formers

Soc Psych is always my second tech (I play only Transcend, so drone problems come early and often)

If the PK's are in the game, I'll then choose Ind Econ, if not, I'll run at Biogenetics, then Secrets - for the free tech as much as for trance ability for my defenders and early crawlers ' rush (it takes just 3 trance synth crawlers to complete one of the early SPs, and we should be generating enough cash - 90 to upgrade - to afford rushing them)

Generally speaking, in PBEMs, forget the WP if the Gaians are playing and the HGP if the PK's are in the game

Then InfoNets and Plan Nets, which opens upo the VW as a possibility (more expensive, though, at 5 upgraded crawlers)

By then Ind Auto is available, and after that I run for the restriction-lifting techs, then Airpower, which really takes me into the mid-game


Chaunk
Thats interesting indeed Googlie. I've been playing arround with beelines as morgan in SP for a while now, and I've generally been going thusly:

Centauri Ecology for formers natch
Ind Auto. (Industrial economics, information networks, planetary networks on the way).
However! The game rarely lets you go straight to ind aut in this fashion, so I'll stop off for Biogenics for recycling tanks when i need an off beeline tech.
Ethical Calculus for democracy (Includes Social Psych. I don't see Rec Commons as vital, since up this point (Land mass depending) I'm still expanding in FM, and so as soon as a base is about to turn size 2, one citizen turns to a doctor and a CP is bought next turn. RC start going in shortly after I turn to democracy, usually increasing Psych to 20-30% for GA booming where possible.)

At this point, the restriction lifting techs are appearing very attractive, but I need to curb my instincts (I think!) and go for D:AP instead (Appled Physics, Doc Mob: Doc:Flex, HEC, Synth Fossil Fuels, D:AP) The Mod 3 rule again means no D:AP beeline, hence I'll pick up the restriction lifting techs on the way. Applying those rules using MM spreadsheet in slot 5, I came up with the following tech progression:

Industrial Base
Centauri Ecology
Information Networks
Industrial Economics
Planetary Networks
Industrial Automation
Biogenetics
Doctrine: Mobility
Social Psych
Doctrine: Flexibility
Ethical Calculus
Gene Splicing
Applied Physics
Ecological Engineering
High Energy Chemistry
Doctrine: Initiative
Synthetic Fossil Fuels
Doctrine: Air Power
Secrets of the Human Brain
Environmental Economics

IndAuto in 6 techs, D:AP in 18, EE in 20. It's likely we would have traded techs at some point though, so this beeline would be changed by that. We would also likely be in a different slot than number 5, and the MM spreadsheet has known issues with scenareo edited games. This beeline also has D:Init and SotHB as off-beeline techs, although SotB is useful for MMI. Note that MMI is three techs away (Neural grafting, X, MMI).



AndiD
For my feeling, Biogenetics comes too late in that list, since RecTanks enhance your just founded bases greatly (primarly nuts, but also minerals while the pod is underway).
There are even some advices to rush the RecTanks instead of the former first but for me with RecTank (rushed), scout (part-rushed?), former (part-rushed) the former comes much too late. It can generate either two nuts (growth, if no 2+ nut square is around) or two minerals (usually: forest) quickly (or both with quick growth or a forest planted on a nut special!) and RecTanks cannot, so they come 3rd.

Expanding in FM with the 2nd citizen a doctor and a rushed pod is an interesting strategy but isn't that "too much" expansion? IMHO, one potentially working fellow not working could easily a bit too much a waste in the early game (opportunity costs in base output => turn disadvantage).

EthCalc is for me primarily for creches, not for Dem. I switch to Dem only if I have finished my expansion mostly (free minerals!), have the first hab complexes built in bases with creches and finally want to "boom" to 11 by allocating 20% to psych.


Chaunk
Yeah normaly Biogenics would come sooner, but I'd sooner have a crawler than a rec tanks. A crawler costs less (3 rows not 4), and can be used to harvest any number of a resource (Usually 2 min from a forest at this point). I do like to have them though, and I've even played a few games where I've put off Centauri Ecology for RecTanks. However, I've compared RecTanks to not below.

With regard to the doctor though, the doctor is there for one turn. My build sequence is something like this:
Turn 1: Base built. 4 nuts (2 from the base, 2 from a rainy roling square), 2 min (1 base, one rainy rolling square), 5 energy (4 base, one rainy roling square.) Buy Former for 20 e.c.s (assuming no wealth)
Turn 2, former built (1e.c. stockpiled, no min carry over), starts to build roads to speed development (with a 2-1-1 theres no need for a farm or a forest at the moment) colony pod started (15 turns). Growth in 10 turns.
Turns 3-10 Nutrients increasing and minerals increasing.
Turn 11 growth next turn to size 2. Worker set to a doctor.
Turn 12, size 2. No riots due to doctor. Colony pod rushed for 13ec (I think, although you may want to check that. It should be 6/8 mins I hope)
Turn 13, size 1. Stockpile energy generates 1 e.c. Colony pod started again.
Cost: 38ec.
Stockpile gains: 2e.c.
End product: 1 base (4-2-5 total), 1 former, 1 CP in 13 turns.

Note that it's possible to modify this queue to be former -> Scout -> CP and part rush them all for less than 60e.c, and still get the CP on more or less the same scheduale. I don't usually build a scout as Morgan because it takes 1 min/turn () and doesn't do garrison duty. It's preferable to have some inner bases make some scouts or rovers on worm patrol, and formers on fungus removal.

Compare this to with a rectank:
Turn 1: Base built. 4 nuts (2 from the base, 2 from a rainy roling square), 2 min (1 base, one rainy rolling square), 5 energy (4 base, one rainy roling square.) RecTank bought for 60 e.c. Full price because 2 ec a min is better than 2.something ec a min.
Turn 2: Base produces 5 nuts, 3 min, 6 energy. 2 e.c stockpiled. Former started (6 turns) Growth in 7 turns.
Turns 3&4:Base growing building former. Nothing exciting.
Turn 5: Former rushed for 15 e.c (6/9 min) Growth in 4 turns.
Turn 6: Former completed, 2 e.c. stockpiled. No min carry over. CP started. Growth in 3 turns
Turn 7: CP 3/30 Growth 2
Turn 8: CP 6/30 Growth next. Doctor set to prevent riots
Turn 9: CP 8/30 Size 2. CP cannot be rushed under 10 min.
Turn 10: CP 11/30 Rushed for 47 e.c (16/19 min)
Turn 11: CP built, 2 ec stockpiled, no min carry over.
Cost: 122ec.
Stockpile gains: 6e.c.
End product: 1 base (5-3-6 total), 1 former, 1 CP in 11 turns.

The gain is 2 turns in exchange for 80 e.c. I don't think thats a sustainable advantage as the costs are prohibitive. It's nice to have a tanks in your SP city(ies) for the extra mineral, but in the very early game we need CPs and the extra nutrient isn't a good trade off for the massivly increased cost. Note that if one drops the former, then the costs drop considerably, (83e.c, 4 back from the stockpile = 79, no former, CP in 10 turns [Comparitivly, 3 turns earlier than no RecTanks, for 43 e.c]) but then the lack of the former means turns lost the other end getting the CP to the new bases location.

I used to have your view on ethical calculus - just for the creches mostly - but Morgie seems to love Dem! When most bases have a rectanks, a garrison (armored probe or scout) and a former or two, the cost of demo isn't that great, but the gains are huge! Massive increase in income, and more importantly GA booming. I've even been in situations where I've been having terrible trouble just trying to keep up with hab complexes, as smaller bases launch to size 4 in seemingly no time at all (+2/4 growth for size 1-3, then GA to 4). Big fan of Demo, FM, Wealth here, and the earlier the FM the better



jtsisyoda
1. Instead of building 6 Rec Commons, I build 6 crawlers and put them toward HGP. All bases benefit, including new bases beyond the beauracracy limit. It's also important long-term for GA's as others have pointed out. When bases are going from size 1 to 2 then immediately to 1, not even the 1 ec/turn maintenance would be recouped, not to mention the minerals for the facility in the first place. So... how about building a CP instead of an RC, until we're done building CP's, at which time we can build a crawler towards HGP. With the factions in this game, I see no reason we can't get to IA early enough to insta-build the game's first SP.

2. My early game tech preferences:

Ind Econ (FM) and Biogen (HGP)
Cent Eco (formers)
Plan Nets (probes)
IA (crawlers, PTS)
Adap Econ (PEG)
Cent Emp (Emp Guild)
(Some of you may have seen some of this section in a previous post which has disappeared into the forum void.)

Cent Eco. Roads to new cities gain _several_ turns of base production. With a forest and rec tank, that really adds up. Having forests makes up for both the former support (+1 min) and the slight delay to the IA beeline (+1 energy). Besides, IA often comes too soon to take advantage of it immediately, because expansion isn't complete. This will depend on world size.

Biogen and Rec Tanks. We should definitely use our starting cash ASAP, and Rec Tanks (and/or switching to FM) is the easiest. The +1 food means colony pods can be finished sooner, gaining several more "base-turns". The +1 min cancels our -1 support and means the colony pods or formers are built faster. The +1 energy is also great when combined with our faction's +1/base. My calculations indicate Rec Tanks usually give slightly more turn advantage than a former, but they're both great.

FM doubles (literally!) energy income so I'm currently torn between Biogen and Ind Econ as a first tech.

2a. Good detail work on Formers and Rec Tanks, Chaunk... we should check strategies against real numbers. You compared Former-CP to RT-Former-CP, but what about RT-CP-CP? A nice thing about RT's is you get nutrients and minerals at just the right rate to build nothing but CP's for quite a while (if that's what we want). If our second tech gives FM, that's a lot of base squares at +4 econ. (If I find time I'll crank out numbers for RT-CP-CP.) Another important thing is that the effect of +1 nutrient is much more noticeable if you don't have any rainy squares! This is the kind of calculation that really has to be done once we open the turn. (But now is a good time to throw out ideas so we can decide quickly when the time comes.) Also, don't discount that two turns we gained, or continuous gain of 1-1-1 thereafter. If the next base also does that, the third base has gained four turns. And we have to spend our 110 starting ec's on something, and the sooner the better. But as ec's run low, yes, we should consider formers instead, as we don't want to tie up our build queue with rec tanks that can't be rushed.

I agree once crawlers are available, they're often (but not always) better than RT's.

3. AndiD, the idea with Morgan is to get such insane base square energy that the second worker is not essential. Count 1 for the base normally, 1 for the RT, 1 for faction +1 Econ, and 3(?) for FM-Wealth (+4 Econ), that's 6 energy at the base square, not including a possible river or energy special. When the base square is that good, you want as many as possible. Also, I prefer to go very thin on scouts-- not every base gets one. That may sound risky, but the turn advantage is so great that you can even afford to lose a base and still be ahead.


jtsisyoda
I forgot to mention... Rec Tanks are awesome candidates for auto-completion pods!


AndiD
Regarding tech beeline:
I think ProgPsych and subsequently AdapEcon is certainly something we should tackle quite early, since the PEG would help us greatly in saving time (not to build Energy Banks) and further increasing our cash.
I'm not quite literate on the tech tree yet to include that in an updated tech beeline list...

Regarding crawler vs. RecCommons for SP (= HGP) instabuilding:
Interesting strategy but doesn't it depend on the base growth? Fast growing bases (jungle, nut special) can grow with RecCommons quickly to size 3 or 4 and produce crawlers much faster than without (cheaper rushing => more rushing). Of course a size 1 base with a rocky mineral special and a former building mine+road would be as fast (faster?) with crawlers...

3. AndiD, the idea with Morgan is to get such insane base square energy that the second worker is not essential. Count 1 for the base normally, 1 for the RT, 1 for faction +1 Econ, and 3(?) for FM-Wealth (+4 Econ), that's 6 energy at the base square, not including a possible river or energy special. When the base square is that good, you want as many as possible. Also, I prefer to go very thin on scouts-- not every base gets one. That may sound risky, but the turn advantage is so great that you can even afford to lose a base and still be ahead.

The doctor has to be fed so if you have no rainy or special square you can get trouble except when you replace RecCommons with RecTanks but that doesn't really solve the problem... (Using a garrison could but only until we run FM)
Have a look at the current mini-game perhaps and try the worker/doctor strategy... ;-)

As soon as the HGP is done the problem disappears anyway (doesn't it return with FM?)
And how often is there really a rolling rainy square for 2 nuts/1 min? (certainly the best starting square but quite rare IMHO...)

Shall we continue the growth discussion in the appropriate forum and leave it to tech / SP-related here? (Maybe we should plan growth strategies with and without HGP since it makes a huge difference early on)


Chaunk
Well I checked my numbers and it's actually possible to produce RT-F-CP in the same time as RT-CP for little extra cost. Essentially assuming that every CP takes 3 moves to get to it's destination, thats 1 turn on roads or 3 turns with no roads, plus one either way to plant the base. Therefore in a cash rich scenario I propose this sequence.

Turn 1: Base founded. RT bought for 76 ec. This is overpaying by 16 ec to get 10 min pre-built on the former next turn. Growth in 11 (Assuming a 2-1-1 square agian)
Turn 2: RT Completed, 10 min accumulated. 2 ec back from stockpile. Former can be bought for 18, but we should in fact wait 2 turns, til it's accumulated 16/20 min. Growth in 7. Aim therefore for CP in 8 turns
Turn 3: Nothing exciting G6, CP7
Turn 4: Former now 16/20 min. Every min at this point is 2 ec, lowest cost again. We want a CP in 6 turns, at 3 min/turn. That means we need to buy an extra 10 min. Therefore, spending 22 ec to buy one min for former and 10 min extra for CP next turn. G5 CP8(Currently)
Turn 5: Former built (2ec stockpiled), starts roading like crazy to try and road as much as possible to next base site. G4, CP 7 (10/30 +3 min/turn still)
Turn 6,7:Nothing happening really.
Turn 8: Growth next turn. doctor set. CP at 16/30 min, to be 18/30 next turn.
Turn 9: Growth to size 2. CP 18/30. Need to buy 9min, therefore 24ec spent to buy CP.
Turn 10: CP built (1 e.c stockpiled), can move along roads to new base site.
Costs: 122 ec
Gains: 1 RT, 1 Former, 1 CP.
Growth is then in 7 turns, a new CP would be built in 15, reducing to 8/9 when the previous CP turns to a base. Quite buyable in 8 turns, probably worth overspending on, to guirantee the next one on time.

This is my prefered build sequence if we can do it. It requires biogenics, Centauri Ecology & FM. I would still rate FM as a more important tech than biogenics although I think I need more testing. With Biogenics we spend a lot more, and without FM we can't afford a fraction of the increased costs. Therefore I propose the slight change to the start of my tech line below:

Industrial Base
Centauri Ecology
Industrial Economics
Information Networks
Biogenetics
Planetary Networks
Industrial Automation

From here it would be the same or similar. It's likely we will be unable to research Biogenics straight after indEcon, hence I've inserted InfNetworks first.

However! If we have a large number of moist or arid tiles, and few rainy tiles, then biogenics demands to be bumped up, perhaps even to before centauri ecology. The extra nut makes a 1 nut square into a 2 nut square, which is needed to run a FM expansion for feeding the doctor at size 2.


AndiD
I've also spent a few hours starting over and over again in the game and experimenting and came to similar conclusions.

Furthermore, FM *is* IMO definitely more important since it jacks down time of tech advance significantly. You get 2+ energy per base and 1+ energy per square nearly from the beginning and you can afford playing with the SE sliders after each new discovery, fighting for each tech turn saved in the very beginning.
The time of next tech discovery (InfNet) after IndEcon went down from 4 turns to 2 turns (!) on switching to FM.
The only disadvantages are planet (do we play rare native life? anyway, we are not attacking and psi defense is irrelevant to planet) and police (when we don't build garrisons regularly anyway, our police rating is irrelevant).

CentEcon can in a way substitute Biogenics (let the former build a farm on a (preferably rolling) moist square) and combined with the road advantage for the pods and the ability to immediately plunder special resource squares (imagine a forest on nutrient square) from the beginning it should be first in any case.

After the techs above I would definitely research
SocPsych (to get a (mineral rich) base beyond size 1 with RC and start working on the HGP)
EthicalCalc (to get Dem, efficiency and more bases without b-drones)

and after that perhaps
ProgPsych
AdapEcon (to build the PEG shortly after the HGP secret project to help our cash)

but it depends whether other techs appear more important in that situation.

[AndiD]

Chaunk
I'm yet to be convinced of the worth of the PEG. I'd continue the b-line there with a meander to D:AP, but situations will dictate the progression from there. We may need to zip to HEC for plasma steel armour, or be able to run for restriction lifting and tree farms.

From a FM point of view, yes in drags down the turns/tech but if it does so at the expense of growth then thats a no no to my mind. If we can't grow very quickly because of dry underlying terrain then the quick tech rate from FM will be very short lived, and we'd be better to fall behind in tech to gain population. Buster's play regularly reminds me that population is close to the single most important thing in this game. Hence why I thoughly advocate running no garrisons at all in FM, or probes where we need a garrison. It helps to speed up building CP's and therefore bases, and therefore pop. Sure, we might lose one or two, but we should have so many as for it to not even count...


jtsisyoda
"Turn 4: Former now 16/20 min. Every min at this point is 2 ec, lowest cost again. We want a CP in 6 turns, at 3 min/turn. That means we need to buy an extra 10 min. Therefore, spending 22 ec to buy one min for former and 10 min extra for CP next turn. G5 CP8(Currently)"

Wait, we can't carry over 10 mins by rushing alone, can we? I think it only carries over real minerals. in other words, if our base has no rec tank and we work one forest, that's only 3 mins we can carry over for the next turn.

AndiD, are you sure you're a noob? However, insta-building SP's using crawlers is usually better than getting one high-mineral base... take a look at this: SMAC Academy - Insta-building

I think we're all converging on the "it depends on the terrain" approach to FM vs. Biogen vs. Formers. I consider this a good thing.

Regarding PEG, it's much better right after PTS, when you have RT's and work 3 forests at every base. It gives about 3 bonus energy per base in that situation. As long as you have more than 10 bases (or will soon), then PEG's value has a chance to surpass that of the 10 crawlers used to insta-build it.


AndiD
Reply to : Chaunk

From a FM point of view, yes in drags down the turns/tech but if it does so at the expense of growth then thats a no no to my mind. If we can't grow very quickly because of dry underlying terrain then the quick tech rate from FM will be very short lived, and we'd be better to fall behind in tech to gain population.

That's the great thing about FM cash IMO... either use it to advance tech or build pods more quickly or both: I can't see any negative effect of FM on growth ATM.
Getting quick tech advances helps in removing drones (+2 efficiency in Dem (EthCalc) means less b-drones), getting more nuts from farmed rainy (Gene Splicing) or moist (w Condenser via EcoEng) squares to enhance growth or getting more minerals out of mined rocky squares (also EcoEng right?) to build stuff (pods, crawlers, creches, ...) more quickly.
We should therefore add Gene Splicing and Ecological Engineering perhaps directly after EthCalc in our tech list, if we have rainies and/or rockies with mineral specials (and hopefully we have...).

Alternatively (depending on situation and terrain) we can use the additional cash windfall to use Chaunk's RT-F-CP sequence though ~12ec per base making a CP per turn is lots of dough you don't necessarily have...


Reply to : jtsisyoda

However, insta-building SP's using crawlers is usually better than getting one high-mineral base... take a look at this:SMAC Academy - Insta-building

Maybe we could use one high-mineral base then to build enough crawlers, upgrade them and "semi-insta-build" the HGP in order to help in the first expansion phase. Have a look at the prerequisites in that Academy article:
"Take the example of a base, after IA with say 12 mins...
The instabuild way: ... start building crawlers in say 3 bases. Let’s say these bases have 12 mins per base with 10 mins carried forward."
This is not something you are likely to have when size 1 bases all over the place are cranking out pods until the continent is filled up. ;-)

And the HGP will aid you greatly early on when fighting b-drones, they simply vanish and you get a worker instead. (I assume the game calculates HGP-talent + b-drone = normal worker) On a large planet map, you get b-drones at base count 6, with dem at 9 but presumably we plan to expand a bit further. ;-)

In my test game I started building crawlers when I was finished making pods (about 65 years the after start) and depending on the mineral output, having RecCommons in place before that (~3 workers so that rush-building can happen 2-3 turns after starting the crawler build). Should crawler building happen even earlier (instead of pods)?

(Regarding my noob status, well, I'm starting from the shoulders of giants, having read lots of tips, academies, strategy guides etc. :-))


jtsisyoda
Building one crawler in 6 or 10 bases at the same time is a much faster way to build an SP. Assuming 4 minerals per base, that's 7 turns to build, say, HGP (forgetting cash for the moment). If we had one base starting at 10 minerals, it takes 3 turns for the first crawler, it goes to a forest, then 2 turns for the next (including carry over), 2 for the 3rd, 2 for the 4th, and we're already way past 7 turns. Yes, the other bases build other stuff in the meantime, but my philosophy is that almost nothing pays for itself faster than an SP (colony pods usually being an exception). So as many bases as possible should contribute to building SP's.

Minute Mirage and Kody had discussions that built on the SMAC Academy write-up. Upgrading crawlers is overrated unless you have a poor industry rating. Rush-building crawlers so they can work forest, then go the SP, is mathematically better in the typical situation. It returns more than .5 mins per ec, which upgrading cannot do early in the game.


Impaler
Note: The empath guild is definatly NOT going to be at Centauri Empathy, standard multiplayer protocall would call for it to be completly disabled as it was in this last game, I am going to try to get a vote going for moving it up to Meditation or Genetics so that it can still be in the game, but by this point its no longer an early game Project and will require us anyone who wants it to divert away from MMI.

-- Fear is the Mind Killer

Chaunk
Re: Second RT-F-CP build projection, yep thats junk. I've been working on a spreadsheet to help work out the best early game progression, and always carrying over 10 min not jsut to production is just one of the many bugs in it I hadn't noticed yet...

It is still possible for a RT-F-CP to be done in 10 turns though. It costs a little more, but here it is...

Turn 1: Base built. 4 nuts (2 from the base, 2 from a rainy roling square), 2 min (1 base, one rainy rolling square), 5 energy (4 base, one rainy roling square.) RecTank bought for 60 e.c. Full price because 2 ec a min is better than 2.something ec a min.
Turn 2: Base produces 5 nuts, 3 min, 6 energy. 2 e.c stockpiled. Former started (6 turns) Growth in 7 turns.
Turns 3&4:Base growing building former. Nothing exciting.
Turn 5: Former rushed for 20 e.c (8/9 min) Growth in 4 turns.
Turn 6: Former completed, 2 e.c. stockpiled. 2min carry over. CP started. Growth in 3 turns
Turn 7: CP 5/30 Growth 2
Turn 8: CP 8/30 Growth next. Doctor set to prevent riots
Turn 9: CP 10/30 Size 2. CP can be rushed for 53 ec.
Turn 10: CP built, 2 ec stockpiled, no min carry over.
Cost: 133ec.
Stockpile gains: 6e.c.
End product: 1 base (5-3-6 total), 1 former, 1 CP in 10 turns.

Therefore we'd be looking at ~13e.c. per turn for aCP in 10, ~12 CP in 11 or ~3 for a CP in 13 with no rectanks.

AndiD, yep FM certainly helps with tech, and therefore helps to get to more pop via other means. However, try playing a game on a low rainfall, low rockiness world, and you'll see what I mean. It's quite possible for a super early FM to lose out to biogenics and rec tanks early. The rectanks provide the extra nut needed for size 2 growth. Suppose in the above situation, the best tile that could be worked was a 1-1-1. Growth then is in a huge 21 turns! Build a rec tanks on turn one, and it's down to 11 instantly, and is also able to support a freeloading doctor for a turn or two whilst the CP is rushed.

Also Gene splicing and ecological engineering are nice, but I'd still rather pick them up on the way to D:AP, since airpower is a massive advantage in this game. With the proposed chopper changes, the needlejet is looking better than usual, so we may even be able to stop at D:AP and go for fusion or somesuch.

With regard to crawlers, I like to rush one onto a forest per base asap, especially when playing Morgan. It almost completely removes the -1support hit, and helps other builds run that little bit faster. It's also IMHO worth stopping expansion somewhere near the b-drone limit to get some crawlers onto the park.

Didn't Kody and MM say that rushing crawlers was a better way to use ecs than upgrading? I agree with you on the high mineral thing, but at 4 min production, crawlers in 7 yes, but we can rush them after 3 turns for 29 e.c. each, 4 turns for 17, 5 turns for 7. However, with multiple bases producing crawlers, there may well be moving time to get the crawler to the SP site, which demands a good road system - lots of formers.



jtsisyoda
RE: Mines, they are available with Cent Eco. Personally I don't build as many mines as most people (except on rocky mineral specials, of course). Boreholes give more of an improvement per turn, if you include the energy. You can build two forest in about the same time as a mine, too. But I'm not saying we shouldn't build them. They are a more efficient use of space than crawlers on forest.

Glad to hear about the spreadsheet. If it works smoothly, it will help a lot.

Reply to : Chaunk

Also Gene splicing and ecological engineering are nice, but I'd still rather pick them up on the way to D:AP, since airpower is a massive advantage in this game. With the proposed chopper changes, the needlejet is looking better than usual, so we may even be able to stop at D:AP and go for fusion or somesuch.

For DAP vs. EE, getting energy restrictions lifted can sometimes give you enough energy (especially with boreholes) that DAP still comes almost as quickly. I'm not too worried about the other factions beating us to DAP-- I can't see them overcoming our energy advantage, unless they cooperate.

With regard to crawlers, I like to rush one onto a forest per base asap, especially when playing Morgan. It almost completely removes the -1support hit, and helps other builds run that little bit faster. It's also IMHO worth stopping expansion somewhere near the b-drone limit to get some crawlers onto the park.

There are some situations where HGP provides more resources than six crawlers. Say we're building bases to the second beauracracy limit, HGP allows one worker per base work forest instead of being a doctor (even at size 1). Even if you build it before you get to the second b-limit, you ensure you beat everyone else to it, and you can ICS after that, since you can have as many size 1 bases as you want when you have HGP.

Didn't Kody and MM say that rushing crawlers was a better way to use ecs than upgrading? I agree with you on the high mineral thing, but at 4 min production, crawlers in 7 yes, but we can rush them after 3 turns for 29 e.c. each, 4 turns for 17, 5 turns for 7. However, with multiple bases producing crawlers, there may well be moving time to get the crawler to the SP site, which demands a good road system - lots of formers.

Yeah, that's what I meant re rushing vs. upgrading. The seven turns to HGP without rush-buying was just an illustration of how quickly you can build an SP when you leverage the production of many bases. We should rush crawlers when possible.

Roads are so quick to build that it doesn't take that many for the roads themselves. But to build enough forest that crawler production are maximized, we probably do need at least one former per base. Eventually I try to have two or three formers per base in time for condensors and boreholes.


AndiD
I think you are building roads anyway to the new colony site (usually first or second thing my rushed formers do and I try to rush a former in any new base first, except when a rectank is needed to get the extra nut) so the crawlers can use them.

When you keep expanding right from the start and you don't lose a pod to the worms, you usually have a slight gap between reaching the first beaucracy limit and the ability to get rid of it via Dem. We could use exactly that time to (rush)build crawlers and get the HGP done very early. And after that... free expansion with 10 free minerals until the second b-drone limit! I guess the 10 free minerals (= former for ~20 Cr. = road to next base site = 3 turns saved) outweigh Dem despite its 20% growth.

I guess the restriction lifting techs could be seen as investment in growth, build capability and energy earnings, in a way just like the pods...

Small noob question: What relevance do AdvMilAlgorithms (with AAA tracking) have in the overall game in multiplayer?


Googlie
In my experience, Huge. In a recent game (as the Cult) I had to try and take out a factions base that had the Space Elevator in it, but (I had "display odds before attacking") his 100% AAA defense (plus he had the CBA, so had aersospaces everywhere) against my "Chop and swarm" (shard choppers accompanied by locusts) made it impossible. I found his base with the HSA had a conventional defenderm, and that was easily taken despite it, too, having an aerospace center.

As an aside, the "chop and swarm" tactic is useful for attacks against a fgaction with the CBA - or aerospace centers in several bases. You can't drop into a base with an aerospace, but you can swarm it)

G.


AndiD
So we may keep that in mind since it is a quite different path to AdvMilAlg and D:AP...

Back to the HGP-secret-instabuilding to counter b-drones and to ensure founding bases with minerals to the end:
Did another test (different map with average fungus instead of rare) and ended up after 78 years with (50%-0%-50% setting in SE):

- with two mineral focus bases: 16 bases, 2 SP (HGP und VW), 71 raw energy output, population 37 (1x5, 2x4, 6x3, 6x1) => bases with size 1 are "just founded" and suffer from lack of free minerals

- with instabuilding: 15 bases, 2 SP (HGP and PEG*), 114 raw energy output, population 40 (9x3, 8x2, 1x1) => more population, more evenly distributed, more difficult map

* Snatched the PEG from Deidre in foto-finish via 2nd instabuilding :-D

Result: HGP instabuilding is great indeed! The result above is still far from the optimum (I lost quite a few turns) though comparable in general playstyle (= changed nothing significant except SP instabuilding).

I guess using the HGP this way results in a smoother expansion (you never have a base with one doctor and no worker without free minerals...).

Lessons learnt from this 2nd test game:
- You should actually plan ahead when not to start pods but crawlers (= "I will have six bases around when pod finished, build crawler instead")
- Late bases which won't produce pods anymore and provide 2 nuts get RecCommons rushed first, then formers part-rushed (plant forest for 2nd worker!), then RecTanks (drones are the problem, not growth)
- Build mines on mineral specials in time for crawler production (got two rolling rainies with mineral special, didn't want to waste the 2 nuts but should have done)
- Think carefully about interrupting your buildup sequence for another crawler->SP run (as I did for the PEG), it could well eat too much valuable time towards the first boom.


Whoha
I generally beeline to IA, its got too much uber stuff, maybe they will move some stuff around.

We need to account for that, if the tech item we want got moved to a different tech..


AndiD
Current discussion looks like only MMI will be weakened (Cloudbase Academy) if at all. Noone has thought about changing IA and I sincerely hope noone ever does. ;-)

Anyway, I familiarized myself with the tech tree and came to the following tech list (without tech trade, exactly that order would be possible if we stayed in the usual Morgan slot):

I. Just required techs for getting off
1. Centauri Ecology <- WP SP
2. Industrial Economics <- Market
3. Information Networks
4. Biogenetics <- HGP SP
5. Planetary Networks <- VW SP
6. Industrial Automation <- Crawlers, Hab Complexes, PTS SP
7. Social Psych

II. Deviation to AdapEcon for the PEG
8. Progenitor Psych
9. Ethical Calculus <- Creche, Dem
10. Adaptive Economics <- PEG SP

III. More or less required techs to get building
11. Doctrine: Mobility
12. Gene Splicing <- nut restrictions lifted, to have PTS making sense
13. Ecological Engineering <- mineral restrictions lifted, to make usage of boreholes, build more stuff more quickly

IV. Tree Farms for booming to 11
14. Environmental Economics <- energy restrictions lifted (again boreholes!), tree farms (get ready to boom...)
-- END OF EARLY GAME --

Early game Secret Projects I would assess as follows:
Absolutely required:
- HGP: to aid early expansion

As soon as every base has enough nuts:
- PTS: to boom to size 3 and boost everything
- PEG: to enhance rushing capability early

Very beneficial:
- VW: to boost research, growth and save cash
- WP: to speed up building borehole and condensers

Beneficial:
- CN: to offset wealth penalty and to weaken momentums
- CDF: saves „only“ build time of 2-4 turns/base

Probably not worth:
- ME: maybe as a denial strategy for the Gaians

[AndiD]

AndiD
Same goes for the mid game starting at that point:

V. Early defense and preparation for air power
15. Doctrine: Loyality <- defending with perim. defense, CN SP
16. Applied Physics
17. Doctrine: Flexibility <- Foils
18. High Energy Chemistry <- defending with 2-3-1 garrison

VI. Going to air power
and
VII. Hybrid Forest for more nuts, population, energy and ecology, Ascetic Virtues for booming to 13
19. Intellectual Integrity <- CDF SP
20. Synthetic Fossil Fuels <- counter-attack with 6-3-1 squad
21. Planetary Economics <- AV SP
22. Doctrine: Air Power <- air power

VIII. Clean Reactors and MMI
23. Secrets of the Human Brain <- trance defense
24. Neural Grafting <- two abilities, NA SP
25. Polymorphic Software
26. Bio-Engineering <- clean reactors
27. MMI <- Copters, [Cloudbase Academy SP (?)], CF SP

X. Going to AAA tracking
28. Optical Computers
29. Adaptive Doctrine
30. Advanced Military Algorithms <- AAA tracking

XI. Going to Fusion Power
31. Cyberethics <- Knowledge, PDL SP
32. Centauri Empathy <- Green [not on track, but nice to have, and neither Superconductor nor PSA are available to choose at that moment]
33. Superconductor
34. Pre-Sentient-Algorithms <- HSA SP
35. Advanced Subatomic Theory
36. Fusion Power

Now me might go for example in the following general directions:
- boosting research: Applied Relativity <- Supercollider SP
- boosting air defense (interceptors):
x Organic Superlubricant <- Fusion Laser (10)
x Orbital Spaceflight
x Advanced Spaceflight <- Plasma Shard (13), Living Refinery SP
- boosting ground defense:
x Silksteel Alloys <- Silksteel Armor (4)
x Photon/Wave Mechanics <- Photon Wall (5)
x Probability Mechanics <- Probability Field (6), Tachyon Field
- boosting infrastructure: Non-linear Mathematics leading to Monopole Magnets (Mag tube)

My opinion on early mid-game Secret Projects

Absolutely required:
- AV: to offset our smaller bases, to boom to 13 and get two specialists more per base

Very beneficial:
- HSA: Defense against probes, esp. Angel probes ;-)
- Supercollider: lab booster
- CF: build better garrisons all the way round
- Living Refinery: more un-clean units
- NA: Worm defense against Gaians (maybe gone already, but I personally think air power is more important)

Probably not worth:
- PDL: we will presumably be near tech lead anyway


jtsisyoda
Eth Calc isn't required for Adap Econ / PEG.

Poly Soft isn't related to Bio-Eng (Clean) or MMI.

If VW + Nodes are possible, Soc Psych can wait for quite a while.

I usually wait too long to get Mobility and Flex. Pod pops should auto-complete trance synth rover supply crawlers (lots and lots of free minerals).

******

When we think about tech strategy, it should go hand in hand with our terraforming strategy:
A) Forests + boreholes (lots of mins)
B) Forest-only (former-efficient and "resilient")
C) Con-farms (w/specialists) + boreholes (lots of energy, but former intensive, and crawlers can be vulnerable later)

If we get WP, we can go straight for a specialist approach before reaching restriction lifters. The other strats really only hit their stride with Env Econ. If we get PTS, we'll be so far ahead in population (and min production) that we could afford more formers. On the other hand, the thing about boreholes is, unlike population, they don't show up on the power-graph. If you're the obvious leader, everyone starts gunning for you.



AndiD
Reply to : jtsisyoda

Eth Calc isn't required for Adap Econ / PEG.Poly Soft isn't related to Bio-Eng (Clean) or MMI.If VW + Nodes are possible, Soc Psych can wait for quite a while.

Right you are but if you want to choose a tech and cannot choose it, you have to select something different at that point... and the list just reflects that. :-) (I wanted to keep it grouped in a way, to move "tech packages" around if needed)

You need Social Psych for EthCalc and Doc:Loy later (and you need EthCalc for Gene Splicing), well, you might swap SocPsych with ProgPsych although you don't need ProgPsych either, except as prereq tech...

I usually wait too long to get Mobility and Flex. Pod pops should auto-complete trance synth rover supply crawlers (lots and lots of free minerals).

I know the first problem as well but something you have to sacrifice. And we hopefully make tech trades _soon after_ getting to IA and those most often include Mobility, Flex, Applied Physics and the other basic stuff we just research because we need it for air power. ;-)

******
When we think about tech strategy, it should go hand in hand with our terraforming strategy:
A) Forests + boreholes (lots of mins)
B) Forest-only (former-efficient and "resilient")
C) Con-farms (w/specialists) + boreholes (lots of energy, but former intensive, and crawlers can be vulnerable later)
If we get WP, we can go straight for a specialist approach before reaching restriction lifters. The other strats really only hit their stride with Env Econ.

Since I have been foresting completely until now and just built my first boreholes (with workers, not crawlers), I won't say much to that discussion, except... how about a mixed apporach:
D) Forests + Con-farm(s) + borehole(s) with some workers and some specialists

That means, you "let it forest" first, and use a borehole with (crawlered) con-farm ASAP since small bases profit enormously from one worker on a borehole. Or is this approach just the "worst of both worlds?"
(In my all-forest strategy I employed until now I noticed that from a certain number of specialists the overall output drops when you convert a hybrid-forest-worker to an engineer...)

If we get PTS, we'll be so far ahead in population (and min production) that we could afford more formers. On the other hand, the thing about boreholes is, unlike population, they don't show up on the power-graph. If you're the obvious leader, everyone starts gunning for you.

But if someone else gets the PTS we might have a slight disadvantage and pop points is something we need more badly then the others. If the others build more military or conquer more, we might not even be in the lead at that time... ;-)

So here is another link, this time to the faction intelligence department. :-)


jtsisyoda
The mixed terraforming approach is fine... the early all-forest landscape doesn't change overnight. The question is, do we want to invest heavily in getting to con-farms and boreholes on every tile ASAP? As for the hybrid-forest-worker outperforming the engineer, that's possible when you have lots of commerce from treaties and pacts. But Planetary Econ usually comes after MMI in my experience, so the other terraforming options are, for quite a while, the best way to work the squares. (Besides, I'm not fond of staking my fortunes on others liking me.)

From the hotseat thread... the question of when to start on defenses and how much you need... these are answered by infiltrating other factions. I suggest going for Flex early, maybe right after IA. We can build some of the early SP's to get ahead, so that sidetracking to Flex before lifting restrictions isn't such a hit. Should we go for Flex before IA?? Some factions, especially the Angels, will prefer to steal rather than do their own research, so it would be good to find them before they find us. Can we count on our energy bonus to make up for the super-early sidetrack? The more I think about it, the more I think IA just provides too much.

Honestly, I don't see how the other factions can stop us from building HGP and PTS. They can't hope to match our energy production after we go Market. They'd have to be really lucky with artifacts, insane resource bonuses, or something like that. Or they'd have to start really, really close to us and sidetrack us to military techs.


AndiD
Reply to : jtsisyoda

The mixed terraforming approach is fine... the early all-forest landscape doesn't change overnight. The question is, do we want to invest heavily in getting to con-farms and boreholes on every tile ASAP? ... But Planetary Econ usually comes after MMI in my experience, so the other terraforming options are, for quite a while, the best way to work the squares.

Getting con-farms and boreholes everywhere requires quite some former power, maybe after our main expansion phase has settled down (formers are finished making roads and farms and forests for new colony sites) we can begin con-farming and boreholing everything. On the other hand, a dense sensor network, some bunkers could be nice and handy, too. ;-)
Clean Reactors could help supporting vastly more formers early but there are so many critical tech choices (see below)...

PlanEcon OTOH should be rather early in our list, because of the AV SP. When we boom, perhaps we can boom directly to 13. ;-) We have AdapEcon anyway and if there is a need of selecting rogue techs, Intellectual Integrity and PlanEcon probably aren't the worst choices.

From the hotseat thread... the question of when to start on defenses and how much you need... these are answered by infiltrating other factions. I suggest going for Flex early, maybe right after IA. We can build some of the early SP's to get ahead, so that sidetracking to Flex before lifting restrictions isn't such a hit. Should we go for Flex before IA?? Some factions, especially the Angels, will prefer to steal rather than do their own research, so it would be good to find them before they find us. Can we count on our energy bonus to make up for the super-early sidetrack? The more I think about it, the more I think IA just provides too much.

I guess the Angel team could be discussing the same problem. They start with two techs (InfNet, PlanNet) on the beeline to IA, OTOH Flex is equally valuable for them since they start with a land based probe team anyway. Not to mention the higher tech cost for their formers in the beginning and losing time without roads for pods...

For us, it may depend in a way. Before we get the HGP, more than 6 bases (= 4 pods) are a waste anyway IMO because of b-drones (new bases are just there for their base square but worse, other bases are crippled to "size 0" as well). In my test games I was often able to build ~7 pods until I got IA and switch to crawlers. When we throw in Flex early, our coastal bases could be not making pods but probe foils. OTOH, how long will a probe foil take to construct with 4-5 minerals/turn compared to 8+ minerals/turn (with 2 crawlers on forests later)? (Time for another round of test games...)
A coastal mineral special on a rocky square would save us some headache though. ;-)

And most important, the earlier we get those foils out, the earlier we will get some results and it may well be that a Morgan probe foil around 2120 will some people make wonder... ;-)

Honestly, I don't see how the other factions can stop us from building HGP and PTS. They can't hope to match our energy production after we go Market. They'd have to be really lucky with artifacts, insane resource bonuses, or something like that. Or they'd have to start really, really close to us and sidetrack us to military techs.

Ack. Not to mention our 100 credits spent well on rushing early formers and pods. :-)
As mentioned above, the Angels may come close but in a way it wouldn't play to their strengths.

Flex isn't too much of a sidetrack anyway (two techs in a row and Mobility is prereq for everything defense-related). So the "choice packages" after IA are

- Mob, Flex (Exploration, Infiltration; even before IA?)
- SocPsych, EthCalc (Dem after PTS to quell lots of b-drones, save psych cash, allow expansion and more growth)
- GeneSplicing, EcoEng (growth for quicker "pod production recovery" and to get mins from mines and boreholes for industry and support and early eco-damage to have later treefarms make sense)
- ApplPhys, Doc:Loy, FieldModulation and/or HEC (early defense)
- EnvEcon (Growth, Energy, ready for booming)
- ProgPsych, AdapEcon (Cash for rushing everything, esp. net nodes)
- SotHB, Neural Grafting, BioEng (clean reactors, support)

Difficult decisions indeed.

If we are >8 bases with the PTS we may need EthCalc ASAP (= before Flex) not to cripple ourselves with 20%+ psych cash AND limited industrial power for several turns... (see Chaunk's test game; and after my test games I'm a recent Morgan-early-dem convert :-D) So this would be another hint towards Flex before IA.

On paper, EcoEng looks certainly like the bigger 'killer' than AdapEcon, since it solves our support problems in a way (put a crawler somewhere to support more units = more formers...), allows the construction of boreholes and condensers AND improves net node building speed (though perhaps not as much as rushing them).

If you say A (EcoEng=boreholes) you also need so say B (EnvEcon) in near future, not to waste that precious energy. I guess the tech path there will depend on our exploration and infiltration results, since the PEG is nice, too. ;-)

So this could be another hint in favour of Flex before IA, we NEED early results for the critical tech path choice [Defense: ApplPhys, Doc:Loy, FieldModulation, HEC] or [Grow&Cash: EnvEcon, ProgPsych, AdapEcon]

So a revised order could be (only one tech more to IA!):
CentEcol, IndEcon, Doc:Mob, Doc:Flex, InfNet, PlanNet, IA, Biogenetics

Another advantage of this order would be early pod-popping in the water with a (synth) transport foil...

We should playtest this though...

[AndiD]

arginine
I did some early gaming, on diff maps.

For tech, I turn labs up to 60% for just centuari ecology. I then followed the first 10 tech order posted by AniD on 5/12.

I had a former or scout patrol for each base until I switch to democracy. A scout patrol could reach any base in 1 turn (for defense). Money was spent on rush building.

Did push to 6 bases of size 1, then got crawlers to get HGP. I grew to 12 bases. To expand further I went to demo. When most of my bases had 2 forests & 1 2 nut square and got PTS. It is effectively a mini pop boom. The PTS making a citizen content is a BIG PLUS. You can expand further, and just buy a rec commons to handle any new B drones. I could have done that, but I went straight to PEG and VW (and lost expansion opportunities). The PEG (50% more energy) might be worth going straight to.

I should have built transports and try to then meet the other factions ASAP to get commerce (a morganite strength).

then get ethical calc or HGP, prefebly HGP. HGP enables expansion through first bracket of b-drones. Then The HGP will help in later pop booming. Ideally we will get both, and that will enable us to reach 18 size 1 bases w/out any special efforts for happiness. (6 bases is the normal number before beuracracy drones appear, 9 bases for demo.) I switched to demo to go from 12 to 18 bases, then went for PTS. Instead I might want to hit PTS, then go to second bracket, and handle new b-drones with rec commons (the second round will give super unhappy people. That might prevent pop booming...) A pop booming city will require a tree farm, a hab complex, children's creche, a rec commons, a holographic theatre.

with HGP & PTS ~ 20% psych:
1 colony pod + 2 forests & 1 2 nut square = a base w/ 12 energy, 5 or 6 mins.
up to 18 bases. Once we get HGP & PTS and 18 bases.

I think we shouldn't move to boreholes & condensors until we have plenty of forest. Forests are much faster to terraform. (4 turns vs 16? for condensor, 24 for borehole). I my formers strugged to keep up.

Boning up on SMAX was time consuming, so I will keep low key position during the actual game. I can provide the saved games if desired. I'm pulling this info from memory, so some of it may be wrong.


jtsisyoda
I believe we can go to the third b-limit and still pop-boom. The second b-limit means the first citizen would be a drone in all bases, and the third b-limit means you get one super drone in all bases. The usable psych is two times population, so six psych in a size three base gives one talent and two normal drones. Factor in a Holo Theater then HGP, and that's two talents and one worker, enough for a GA. Each two additional population allows four more psych, changing one more drone to a talent, sustaining the GA. That assumes changing drones on the far right to specialists when necessary, requiring quite a few nut crawlers.

I agree on forests first. I think our main decision is condensors or boreholes next? Considering the preparations required for pop-booming, I'm leaning toward b-holes.


AndiD
I tried early Flex (Ecol, Econ, Mob, Flex) and found it VERY beneficial.

In about 30 years with one transport foil I got contact to another faction (Treaty + lots of techs), 2 AAs (came in very handy in getting the PTS in 2155 just shortly after a second expansion phase and the HGP (2145) and certainly made up for the "lost" time to IA), one datapod (tech: AppPhys) and about 150 Cr from resupply pods.

IA came still around 2130 but maybe just because there were lots of rivers and the pholus ridge around? Since I had to wait a few years till Biogen arrived, every base got 2 permanent crawlers on a forest, again very beneficial since everything after that was accelerated significantly.

PEG was pretty late (~2175) but just because I had to wait for the tech (got ProgPsych from early tech trade but two rounds of "fillers" till AdapEcon)... :-o. Until then my cash was sufficient but not great though.

Overall, I lost "only" about ten years in my test game to 'yoda's comparison game (on a different - easier - map though) and won about ten years compared to my earlier efforts.

One more argument for very early PTS+Dem and subsequent thick expansion (2 formers/base and such): The Angels start with two techs on-beeline to IA (InfNet and PlanNet) so they may arrive there in about the same time as we will or even earlier (if they play a strict builder's game). And we don't want them to snatch the PTS. ;-)

Regarding b-drones: I found it possible to found 7 bases instead of 6 before HGP. One of the "old" bases gets down to "size 0" but the new base had still one worker. That meant, 5-7 energy more per turn. :-) Again two bases beyond the second b-limit were not really noticable.


jtsisyoda
With a different map it's hard to compare. I suggest Chaunk's map for any further replays.

You've got a good point about the Angels. They only need three techs (four w/Cent Eco), whereas we'll probably get Biogen off-beeline. That means two additional techs we need to research. Still, our early FM does more than theirs (+3 econ is 2 more energy per base than +2 econ). They have another option, especially if they get starting cash (common CMN kick-start)-- they might go Planned from turn one. Again, though, early Rec Tanks can out-grow Planned.

I'm pretty sure I went 7 or 8 bases before HGP, too. The doctor at size 1 is a temporary inconvenience at worst, in my mind.

Another argument for early Flex (just before or after IA)... If Empath Guild is disabled (almost certain), I cannot stress enough how important it is to infiltrate early. As Morgan we can't count on having the biggest population for gaining governorship. After air power it becomes extremely difficult, if not impossible, for probe ships to survive. I have wasted many resources in the past buffing up defenses, then infiltrating, only to find out I didn't need those defenses. The reverse is also true, I've been trounced when I thought I had more than adequate defenses, but had no clue how strong the invading force would be.

Edit: I want to extend that infiltration thing... Without infiltration, you have a 99% chance of defending too much or too little. There's hardly any point to defending at all until we have infiltration on nearby factions.

AndiD
Reply to : jtsisyoda

With a different map it's hard to compare. I suggest Chaunk's map for any further replays.

Will do so in the next days, just had enough of that map. ;-)

You've got a good point about the Angels. They only need three techs (four w/Cent Eco), whereas we'll probably get Biogen off-beeline. That means two additional techs we need to research. Still, our early FM does more than theirs (+3 econ is 2 more energy per base than +2 econ). They have another option, especially if they get starting cash (common CMN kick-start)-- they might go Planned from turn one. Again, though, early Rec Tanks can out-grow Planned.

According to my manual, +2 econ does the same per base square as +3 econ (only commerce difference), Wealth makes the difference (for us) and wealth comes with IA... ;-)

Early PTS without HGP under Market is just a waste for everyone except Lal (extra talent) and maybe Domai (dunno about how much impact his "fewer drones" have). The Angels might be pondering now whether they will pursue the builder's game with a vengeance (IA+Biogen, ignoring Flex for a while) or the hybrid's game with Flexand making early use of those PROBE+2 and techshare3 (!).

I think, if we go for early Flex and they don't they may beat us in getting HGP+PTS, if they choose early Flex, too we will beat them anyway because of money and early turn advantage...

I've never used Planned, especially not from early on. Growth might help significantly (if you had money to rush the pods) but how much does the efficiency hurt (research, income and expansion/b-drones)?

At least it looks like noone gets any kick start since our advantage is to HAVE any money for rushing in the beginning and not being dependent on pod popping luck.

I'm pretty sure I went 7 or 8 bases before HGP, too. The doctor at size 1 is a temporary inconvenience at worst, in my mind.

Except when "old" bases get crippled, too...

Another argument for early Flex (just before or after IA)... If Empath Guild is disabled (almost certain), I cannot stress enough how important it is to infiltrate early...

I want to extend that infiltration thing... Without infiltration, you have a 99% chance of defending too much or too little. There's hardly any point to defending at all until we have infiltration on nearby factions.

So Flex should be a strategic sacrifice in the early game anyway whether the lack of IA will be compensated in money, turn advantage or whatever? Sounds reasonable (and the Angels will hopefully think the same thoughts about defense and infiltration...)


endgame
I've been trying the idea of rushing for restriction lifting before IA and spacing bases so close together that you'd need only 3 crawlers/base to work every available square. Check my post on 'Poly regarding this, I'd like to hear your comments.


AndiD
Sounds like an interesting approach, but difficult to tell how much time will be gained/lost. Perhaps you could go over to the "Boardroom Annex", download Chaunk's comparison game and try it "hands on"?

I just did so for the "Flex-first-approach". I got the transport foil out in 2124 (rushed from a 50 creds pop by the lone scout), 7 bases in 2130 and IA in 2136, compared to 2131 in an earlier test game. But I also got a few more resupply pods, allowing to rush-build every former on base founding and every pod after a base turns to size 2 and a (quite expensive) probe foil about the same time I got IA. Not to mention one rover and two AAs... :-)

I have also been able to get 3 pods just before IA to have them wait at their future colony sites until the HGP is done. Downside: they cost one mineral/turn support. One option could be to rehome them to one "support-punished base" which will not take part in producing crawlers...


Googlie

One option could be to rehome them to one "support-punished base" which will not take part in producing crawlers...

I find i do that quite a bit in my early Morgan games (not necessarily CP's). After the first 50 years I'll have 2 or 3 good mineral producing bases (maybe 2 or 3 crawlers) that can produce a crawler in 3 or 4 turns. They get sent to other bases and rehomed. I'll build a Command center just at one base and that's my "Miitary Academy" - produces my synthsentinals and trance plasma guards and they go to other bases, via a monolith if there's one en route

Same with noodles. I'll get a punishment sphere early on, and that base will work minerals like crazy, while others produce the noodles which get sent there and rehomed, then dispersed back to the front line bases.

My Naval Academy will be slightly different - will also have a punishment sphere but will get an early Naval yard and will be the prime producer of my navy. So it, too, gets crawlers sent and rehomed there to assist in the minerals production for that base. 'Cos of the research penalty (although 50% of a whole bunch is still a whole bunch) I don't spend much time energy-upgrading those 2 bases, so will be building faster mines rather than leisurely boreholes (and surplus citizens will be engineers for the ec kick rather than librarians) When the Punishment Sphere goes up I'll disband rec commons and any holotheatres in those 2 bases, but will leave Childrens' Creches, Tree Farms and Research Hospitals standing (see my earlier comment about 50% of something still being something)

After clean reactors, the bases can be retooled with genejacks and other drone inducing enhancements, being immune as they are and they can then get skunkworks (for that planetbuster prototype - can shave 10 turns off its production [and every weapon thereafter comes already prototyped])and aerospaces so that they can quickly get nutsats thrown into orbit. They also become good bases for SP's, being minerals intensive (by 2300 or so we're talking over 100 mins for each of those 2 bases)

Morgan just lends itself so well to those specialist bases (eg a costal base with a naval yard, bioenhancement center and covert ops facility for instant elite 7-tile movement cruiser probes (9 if i have the MCC).


jtsisyoda
Reply to : AndiD

According to my manual...

Ignore the manual. Using another faction with no econ plus/minus, get them to IA, and flip between FM and FM/Wealth. You'll see the base square energy change by two.


endgame
Reply to : AndiD

Sounds like an interesting approach, but difficult to tell how much time will be gained/lost. Perhaps you could go over to the "Boardroom Annex", download Chaunk's comparison game and try it "hands on"?

Don't hold your breath. I'm still working the plan out. Problem is that your research rate goes down the toilet while waiting for Environmental Economics (oh the irony). The easiest way to bump up the research rate would be to detour to Planetary Networks for librarians. Trouble is, city size must be >= 5 for librarians, which for Morgan means habcomplexes, which means IA.