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(copied over from old forum)
Chaunk
The file is here - it's not zipped, let me know if thats a problem for anyone. I've set unity survey to be on - map outline visible. That should eliminate much of my advantage from creating the game. I slightly tweaked the map so as to make the ai's start better, and removed Morgan from the Monsson jungle . I've not tweaked the ai on the map, purely through the settings.
The game is SMAX, the year is 2101, the faction Morgan enterprises. The aim: Planets domination. Get to it!
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1...ganites2101.SAV
jtsisyoda
Don't know if you guys want to post saves every once in a while, or play out the whole thing before posting. I don't mind giving away "secrets"-- the point is to learn from each other, right? So here are the addresses for my 2137 and 2151 saves:
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=3...da_2137_HGP.zip
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=3...da_2151_Dem.zip
I insta-built HGP and PTS, with PEG on the way in a few years.
My tech progression for this game so far (beelines only):
Ind Econ
Cent Eco
IA (got Biogen on the way)
Adap Econ
Cent Emp
Eth Calc
I forgot to use stockpile in the queue when I started, so I didn't use it at all, for the sake of consistency.
Chaunk
Well my game isn't quite going as planned. I've not looked at your saves yet yoda, but I'd expect to be some distance behind. I grabbed the HGP in 2138 during a brief lull in my expansion at 6 bases. However, I only got Centauri:Ecology a year before that, so I've got no formers... I did however, sign a pact with one of the ai's and so get a swathe of on-beeline techs! I need to expand like crazy to get back the time lost from cent:ecol.
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1..._Chaunk2139.zip
jtsisyoda
Started my first borehole and first condensor. This is what you might call the transition to the mid-game. My expansion is just a trickle now and most early SP's are done, so I have to refocus on new goals.
Chaunk
Well... I'm very impressed with your save jtsisyoda.
I restarted and in 2165 - your last save year - I have less pop, less energy, less forests etc. I've got more techs, yet less tech per year, less SPs. I do have more crawlers, more formers and some more advanced terraforming than you (Borehole completing next turn, 2 condesers already, one more next turn). I'm simply amazed at how network nodes you have though, I just can't get near that. Overall, I'm about 10-15 years behind I think, not including the three more SPs that you have.
I think I'm gonna restart again, and see how I can shave some turns off... My saves (On the same years as yours) are below.
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1...unk2141_HGP.zip
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1...nChaunk2151.zip
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1...nChaunk2165.zip
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jtsisyoda
The Net Nodes were possible because of oodles of cash from PEG.
Chaunk
2101 - Morgan industries founded - Scout started.
2102 - Centauri Ecology chosen as first tech.
2105 - Morgan Pharmaceuticals founded.
2107 - Centauri Ecology. Industrial Economics chosen.
2111 - Industrial Economics. Information Networks chosen. Free Market SE choice.
2116 - Information Networks. Biogenics chosen. Morgan Hydroponics founded.
2118 - Morgan Trade Center founded.
2121 - biogenics. Planetary Networks Chosen.
2125 Update.
4 bases, 4 pop
4 formers
1 CP (2 production)
5 techs, 1 turn til 6th.
16 tech/year, 9 ec/year at 60/40/0 (Tech, ec, psych)
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1..._Chaunk2125.zip
Aims: HGP in 10-15 years, expansion from there.
2126 - Planetary Networks. Industrial Automation chosen. Morgan Aerodynamics founded.
2130 - Morgan Entertainment founded. Base expansion slowed considerably, as b-drone limit reached.
2132 - Industrial Automation. Progenator Psych chosen. Wealth SE Choice. RecTanks switched for Crawlers.
2137 - Progenator Pysch. Adaptive Econ Chosen.
2139 - HGP completed.
2141 - Morgan Data Systems founded
2143 - Adaptive Econ. Social Psych Chosen.
2145 - Morgan Collections founded.
2146 - Morgan Distribution & Morgan Studios founded.
2147 - Morgan Robotics founded. Second b-drone limit reached.
2148 - Svensgaard found me. Traded IndAuto for Doc:Flex. Social Psych.
2149 - Dee calls up, demands Adaptive Econ. I say no, Vendetta.
2150 Update.
12 Bases, 14 pop.
13 Formers
0 CP (5 Production)
11 Techs, 4 turns til 12th (Techs every 7)
83E.c. in treasury.
47 tech/year, 42ec/year. 50/50/0 split.
Aims: VW, PEG, PTS soonish (probably not in that order!). Ideally WP & EG too.
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1..._Chaunk2150.zip
2153 - Hive contact. Traded for Ethical Calculus & Secrets of the human brain. Gene Splicing chosen.
2154 - PTS built. This meant that 40% Psych had to be applied to stop drone riots across the entire faction, or starvation from doctors. PEG needed quickly! Gene Splicing. Ecological Engineering chosen. Morgan Interstellar founded. Extreme energy shortage felt! (6e.c. in the bank!)
2155 - Morgan Transport founded.
2156 - Morgan Mines founded.
2157 - Morgan Construction founded. Morgan Mines and Morgan Hydroponics swapped names.
2160 - Diedre built the EG. Called for governor, and everyone except yang voted for her.
2161 - PEG Constructed. Mass Network Node production started.
2162 - Ecological Engineering. Environmental Economics chosen. Democracy founded.
2163 - Morgan Transport destroyed by worms. Morgan Solarfex founded.
2166 - VW built.
Midgame starts here. Facilities are now the main aim, not CP's. My expansion stopped, which was an error I think, it should have continued in outlying bases.
2169 - Environmental Economics. Neural Grafting chosen.
2173 - Neural Grafting Bioengineering chosen.
2175 Update.
16 bases, 48 pop.
18 formers
1 CP (3 prod)
17 techs (3 years til next)
143 tech/year, 124 e.c./year, 50/50/0 split.
Am at vendetta with 4/6 AI, treaty with one, Yang, and truce with the angels. All six are currently seething.
Looking at my game though, I think I was doing well until I hit the early->mid game time frame. Moving from early to mid just about killed my game. I need more bases I think, and probably at this stage would have benefited more from slightly more dense base packaging. However, I'm using Blakes spacing technique, so when I get round to building boreholes (Shortly I think. Would ideally like a few more formers first), I'll be able to get maximum desity on the boreholes.
Overall, I'm lacking maybe as many as 6-10 bases. I think from 2150-2175 I should have doubled my base count, and thats the area I'd really like tips on.
However, jtsisyoda's game has been very helpful. In this game I built far fewer rec tanks, and opted for crawlers instead. I think that saved me aprox 5 turns or so. It also meant I had far more cash to tickle crawlers along when I wanted to build them. Also his game convinced me of the power of the PEG when used with lots of bases. The extra cash would have been really useful in my game earlier, and I think I built the PEG perhaps 5 turns too late, costing me 10 turns or so over all.
Chaunk
Final save...
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1..._Chaunk2175.zip
jtsisyoda
Very nice game. You have lots of mines. That will help build lots of clean formers in no time. I'm going to play out my current 2165 and see how it compares. Base spacing is also something I'm still experimenting with, so if I try again, it would probably be with more and closer bases. Maybe instead of HGP-CP's-PTS-PEG, HGP-CP's-CP's-PEG-CP's-PTS?
jtsisyoda
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=3..._2175_clean.zip
Status:
bases 23 (3 on the way)
pop 63
tech 18
SP's: 6 - HGP, PTS, PEG, WP, VW, EG
23 crawlers
29 clean formers (saved up to upgrade them all as soon as I got Bio-Eng in 2175... cost 870 ec)
201 ec's/turn, 227(?) tech/turn (every three turns)
Building Clean Formers for Boreholes and Condensors. Going for Clean first before Env Econ might have been better.
Three bases set up to pop-boom in a couple turns. Now that I'm looking at that, I wonder if it would've been better to stop at the second beauracracy limit and boom all the bases?
AndiD
Reply to : jtsisyoda
I just tried another way of going and was extremely satisfied, compared to my own approaches
HGP-PTS-PEG-CP's
Or in the long version: You beeline for IA. When you get wealth and crawlers, let your first expansion phase end gradually (IOW don't scrap the pods from the queue if minerals would be lost and they would finish in time because of decent growth), then build crawlers like crazy and get the HGP. Meanwhile your formers build a enough farms (!) and forests, a few build roads to future colony sites.
When you've got it, you have at least one worker in each base, and two in most of them. Keep building crawlers like crazy, only those bases with excessive growth (nut specials, ...) build pods; former roadworks accordingly. Grab the PTS with these crawlers.
In my game, I "only" needed 20% psych at that time and only one base had a doctor, but anyway, use your newfound industrial might (you did build enough farms and forests for workers, didn't you?) to keep building crawlers, this time for the PEG to help it pay the psych cost. Generally each base gets a second former and most of the bases produce a pod (second expansion phase). Every future colony site gets enough farms to feed 3 workers.
At that point you can even try and grab the VW. Bases from the first expansion phase which do not build crawlers, start their net nodes. Bases from the second expansion phase will produce pods, then nodes (thanks@jtsisyoda).
Advantages I see in this approach:
- the HGP adds a talent and the PTS removes a drone from each base without facility (compensates Market completely in a way)
- you make sure you get these SPs as early as possible
- each new pod is a very, very good investment
- with this "little pop boom" you boost everything: cash (!), research, industry, support, votes, ...
- you can build your 2nd former early (in a way your personal WP)
- you will expand a bit more slowly (prep future base site first), but also more controlled (you usually don't get pods and have no roads/sites for them...).
- every frontier base can cope with its own defense if necessary (you can usually build a 1-1-1 in 1 or 2 turns; a defense perim is built quickly as well)
- if you get the VW, your first facility will be a 'node, boosting research again
- in mid-term the 20% psych is all you need to get your boom with Dem, creches, hab complex, treefarms/condensors, so each base starts to boom as soon as you build the respective facilities
You could even try and switch to Dem at some point to remove a few b-drones (and the more you expand the more drones you lose!). You lose 10 free minerals for each new base but two workers more in a fresh base equal four minerals more so you are on par after 2,5 turns, not counting the doctor saved somewhere else. Cash and research will both benefit greatly, too. Maybe someone should try that out...
Disadvantages:
- you have a slight slope while cranking out all the crawlers for the SPs
- you have to find the "optimum" way of producing these crawlers (not cashing in every single crawler, keeping some mineral feeders on forests)
- will not work in arid areas (one rainy / two moist squares per base are sufficient though)
- if you don't get the PEG the psych drains your cash significantly
- lots of required techs: CentEcol, IndEcon, InfNet, Biogen, PlanNet, IA, ProgPsych, AdapEcon
- and more or less required: SocPsych, [Mobility?], EthCalc (Dem), GeneSplicing (to get real benefit from farmed rainly tiles, more workers on forests), EcolEng (condensors and boreholes)
AndiD
Yes, Dem is great! (Someone told me that once but I didn't believe him. Now I do! :-D)
You don't need to dump ANY money into psych after the PTS, just go Dem! (at least in my game) And if you found a base without 10 free minerals but with 3 workers and have a little bit of cash you hardly notice the difference. You don't miss the rushed former anyway since there are 2-4 formers around each newfound base and three squares have been prepared already. The 20% additional growth is nice, too.
Edit: Dem works really best when switching to Dem on the turn before you will build the PTS. So change tech beeline to SocPsych, EthCalc, [Gene Splicing if I remember correctly], ProgPsych, AdapEcon after IA.
2nd edit: For sake of comparison, my game files.
Game upload: http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=5..._pts_vw_peg.zip
Short history:
2128: 6th base founded, 3 years before IA.
0 bases, 7 pop, 17 ec reserve, 16 ec/turn, 20 tech/turn, 6 techs, 5 formers
2146: HGP going to be completed (late because of keeping crawlers)
09 bases, 14 pop, 0 ec reserve, 33 ec/turn, 38 tech/turn, 9 techs, 6 formers
2154: PTS going to be completed. Switch to Dem.
10 bases, 16 pop, 8 ec reserve, 41 ec/turn, 48 tech/turn, 10 techs, 10 formers
2159: nothing special
10 bases, 30 pop, 118 ec reserve, 52 ec/turn, 57 tech/turn, 11 techs, 20 (!) formers
2168: PEG already finished a few years ago. VW to be completed
13 bases, 39 pop, 274 ec reserve, 100 ec/turn, 94 tech/turn, 13 techs, 21 formers
2176: stopped for comparison
14 bases, 44 pop, 69 ec reserve, 111 ec/turn, 114 tech/turn, 15 techs, 24 formers
What I conclude that I'm pretty late in the early game but catch up significantly with the "early" PTS acquisition. Later on I neglect building pods and boreholes, I know. ;-)
arginine
I have observed that the maximum amount of effective psych is 2 * number of people in base. If there are too many beauracracy drones, would that prevent us from being able to GA, and thus pop boom with just psych and buildings to calm people? Is there some way to get around this in order to pop boom as morgan, or are we limited in the number of pop boomable bases that can be built?
jtsisyoda
That's a very important question, Arginine. There's an explanation in the science forum, tech strategy thread:
"I believe we can go to the third b-limit and still pop-boom. The second b-limit means the first citizen would be a drone in all bases, and the third b-limit means you get one super drone in all bases. The usable psych is two times population, so six psych in a size three base gives one talent and two normal drones. Factor in a Holo Theater then HGP, and that's two talents and one worker, enough for a GA. Each two additional population allows four more psych, changing one more drone to a talent, sustaining the GA. That assumes changing drones on the far right to specialists when necessary, requiring quite a few nut crawlers."
If any of that is unclear let me know and I'll try to clarify.
arginine
w/ HGP, get 1 content becomes 1 happy per base.
hmm....
so, a population of 5. It has 0 content.
psych gets 2 happy & 1 content.
w/ HGP, get +1 happy per base.
That becomes 3 happy
GA
a population of 6. It has 0 content.
psych gets 3 happy content.
w/ HGP, get +1 happy per base.
That becomes 4 happy
GA
A population of 5. It has 1 really unhappy.
psych gets 2 happy.
w/ HGP, get +1 happy per base.
That becomes 3 happy
GA
A population of 6. It has 1 really unhappy.
psych gets 2 happy & 1 content
w/ HGP, get +1 happy per base.
That becomes 3 happy & 1 content
GA
A population of 5. It has 2 really unhappy.
psych gets 1 happy, 1 content.
w/ HGP, get +1 happy per base.
That becomes 2 happy, 1 content
no GA
A population of 6. It has 2 really unhappy.
psych gets 2 happy & 1 content
w/ HGP, get +1 happy per base.
That becomes 3 happy & 1 content
GA, but it'll get stuck on the odd numbered base populations
Without the HGP, we can popboom only by not hitting any of the b drones. 1 * 9 = 9 bases with demo. With the HGP, we can take 2 levels of b drones. 3 * 9 = 27 bases with demo. I wonder if the efficiency of children's creches will effect drone calculations (eg. all bases have a children's creche in them, giving us +1 efficiency).
27 bases, not a bad number. I believe this means we really need to get the HGP, as jtsisyoda already stated. There are 3 other human factions involved, so we will probably be able to get only 1 or 2 of the early SPs...
jtsisyoda
Your numbers look right. As a backup plan, if we don't snag HGP, we can build 9 bases and boom them, then build one or two "waves" of CP's. We only need Eth Calc and Gene Splicing, or Eth Calc and WP.
Chaunk
I've posted here (http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview....readID=1442727) a sequence to enable a base to get over the odd sized GA problem, which would enable us to boom 36 bases. 27 seems fine though.
Archaic
2142
Bases: 10 (1 CP en-route)
Pop: 14
Techs: 16
Tech Cost: 558
Tech Accumulated: 494
Tech Per Turn: 67
Next Tech: 2143
Turns per Tech: 9
Energy Reserves: 179
Energy Per Turn: +58
No SP's yet
4 Crawlers active, 7 in production
8 Formers active, 2 in production
Planetary Governor
Pacts with Hive, Angels, Pirates
Treaties with University and Spartans
Truce with Gaians
Plans: Build PTS ASAP, keep expanding. Hold back on Demo Switch (Currently still in FM/Wealth with 50/0/50) until I cannot avoid it due to inefficiency, so as not to harm the Hive Pact. Focus efforts crawlers for HGP, PEG and WP (not in that order).
Thoughts: I can't help but wonder if, with some of my more recent bases, I should've used the initial 10 minerals not to rush a Rec Commons, but to rush a crawler. If I had done so, I believe I would have had the HGP at the very least by now, which would've eliminated the need to build those RC's, and have prevented other potential riots across the faction due to inefficiency.
Chaunk
The file is here - it's not zipped, let me know if thats a problem for anyone. I've set unity survey to be on - map outline visible. That should eliminate much of my advantage from creating the game. I slightly tweaked the map so as to make the ai's start better, and removed Morgan from the Monsson jungle . I've not tweaked the ai on the map, purely through the settings.
The game is SMAX, the year is 2101, the faction Morgan enterprises. The aim: Planets domination. Get to it!
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1...ganites2101.SAV
jtsisyoda
Don't know if you guys want to post saves every once in a while, or play out the whole thing before posting. I don't mind giving away "secrets"-- the point is to learn from each other, right? So here are the addresses for my 2137 and 2151 saves:
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=3...da_2137_HGP.zip
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=3...da_2151_Dem.zip
I insta-built HGP and PTS, with PEG on the way in a few years.
My tech progression for this game so far (beelines only):
Ind Econ
Cent Eco
IA (got Biogen on the way)
Adap Econ
Cent Emp
Eth Calc
I forgot to use stockpile in the queue when I started, so I didn't use it at all, for the sake of consistency.
Chaunk
Well my game isn't quite going as planned. I've not looked at your saves yet yoda, but I'd expect to be some distance behind. I grabbed the HGP in 2138 during a brief lull in my expansion at 6 bases. However, I only got Centauri:Ecology a year before that, so I've got no formers... I did however, sign a pact with one of the ai's and so get a swathe of on-beeline techs! I need to expand like crazy to get back the time lost from cent:ecol.
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1..._Chaunk2139.zip
jtsisyoda
Started my first borehole and first condensor. This is what you might call the transition to the mid-game. My expansion is just a trickle now and most early SP's are done, so I have to refocus on new goals.
Chaunk
Well... I'm very impressed with your save jtsisyoda.
I restarted and in 2165 - your last save year - I have less pop, less energy, less forests etc. I've got more techs, yet less tech per year, less SPs. I do have more crawlers, more formers and some more advanced terraforming than you (Borehole completing next turn, 2 condesers already, one more next turn). I'm simply amazed at how network nodes you have though, I just can't get near that. Overall, I'm about 10-15 years behind I think, not including the three more SPs that you have.
I think I'm gonna restart again, and see how I can shave some turns off... My saves (On the same years as yours) are below.
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1...unk2141_HGP.zip
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1...nChaunk2151.zip
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1...nChaunk2165.zip
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jtsisyoda
The Net Nodes were possible because of oodles of cash from PEG.
Chaunk
2101 - Morgan industries founded - Scout started.
2102 - Centauri Ecology chosen as first tech.
2105 - Morgan Pharmaceuticals founded.
2107 - Centauri Ecology. Industrial Economics chosen.
2111 - Industrial Economics. Information Networks chosen. Free Market SE choice.
2116 - Information Networks. Biogenics chosen. Morgan Hydroponics founded.
2118 - Morgan Trade Center founded.
2121 - biogenics. Planetary Networks Chosen.
2125 Update.
4 bases, 4 pop
4 formers
1 CP (2 production)
5 techs, 1 turn til 6th.
16 tech/year, 9 ec/year at 60/40/0 (Tech, ec, psych)
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1..._Chaunk2125.zip
Aims: HGP in 10-15 years, expansion from there.
2126 - Planetary Networks. Industrial Automation chosen. Morgan Aerodynamics founded.
2130 - Morgan Entertainment founded. Base expansion slowed considerably, as b-drone limit reached.
2132 - Industrial Automation. Progenator Psych chosen. Wealth SE Choice. RecTanks switched for Crawlers.
2137 - Progenator Pysch. Adaptive Econ Chosen.
2139 - HGP completed.
2141 - Morgan Data Systems founded
2143 - Adaptive Econ. Social Psych Chosen.
2145 - Morgan Collections founded.
2146 - Morgan Distribution & Morgan Studios founded.
2147 - Morgan Robotics founded. Second b-drone limit reached.
2148 - Svensgaard found me. Traded IndAuto for Doc:Flex. Social Psych.
2149 - Dee calls up, demands Adaptive Econ. I say no, Vendetta.
2150 Update.
12 Bases, 14 pop.
13 Formers
0 CP (5 Production)
11 Techs, 4 turns til 12th (Techs every 7)
83E.c. in treasury.
47 tech/year, 42ec/year. 50/50/0 split.
Aims: VW, PEG, PTS soonish (probably not in that order!). Ideally WP & EG too.
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1..._Chaunk2150.zip
2153 - Hive contact. Traded for Ethical Calculus & Secrets of the human brain. Gene Splicing chosen.
2154 - PTS built. This meant that 40% Psych had to be applied to stop drone riots across the entire faction, or starvation from doctors. PEG needed quickly! Gene Splicing. Ecological Engineering chosen. Morgan Interstellar founded. Extreme energy shortage felt! (6e.c. in the bank!)
2155 - Morgan Transport founded.
2156 - Morgan Mines founded.
2157 - Morgan Construction founded. Morgan Mines and Morgan Hydroponics swapped names.
2160 - Diedre built the EG. Called for governor, and everyone except yang voted for her.
2161 - PEG Constructed. Mass Network Node production started.
2162 - Ecological Engineering. Environmental Economics chosen. Democracy founded.
2163 - Morgan Transport destroyed by worms. Morgan Solarfex founded.
2166 - VW built.
Midgame starts here. Facilities are now the main aim, not CP's. My expansion stopped, which was an error I think, it should have continued in outlying bases.
2169 - Environmental Economics. Neural Grafting chosen.
2173 - Neural Grafting Bioengineering chosen.
2175 Update.
16 bases, 48 pop.
18 formers
1 CP (3 prod)
17 techs (3 years til next)
143 tech/year, 124 e.c./year, 50/50/0 split.
Am at vendetta with 4/6 AI, treaty with one, Yang, and truce with the angels. All six are currently seething.
Looking at my game though, I think I was doing well until I hit the early->mid game time frame. Moving from early to mid just about killed my game. I need more bases I think, and probably at this stage would have benefited more from slightly more dense base packaging. However, I'm using Blakes spacing technique, so when I get round to building boreholes (Shortly I think. Would ideally like a few more formers first), I'll be able to get maximum desity on the boreholes.
Overall, I'm lacking maybe as many as 6-10 bases. I think from 2150-2175 I should have doubled my base count, and thats the area I'd really like tips on.
However, jtsisyoda's game has been very helpful. In this game I built far fewer rec tanks, and opted for crawlers instead. I think that saved me aprox 5 turns or so. It also meant I had far more cash to tickle crawlers along when I wanted to build them. Also his game convinced me of the power of the PEG when used with lots of bases. The extra cash would have been really useful in my game earlier, and I think I built the PEG perhaps 5 turns too late, costing me 10 turns or so over all.
Chaunk
Final save...
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1..._Chaunk2175.zip
jtsisyoda
Very nice game. You have lots of mines. That will help build lots of clean formers in no time. I'm going to play out my current 2165 and see how it compares. Base spacing is also something I'm still experimenting with, so if I try again, it would probably be with more and closer bases. Maybe instead of HGP-CP's-PTS-PEG, HGP-CP's-CP's-PEG-CP's-PTS?
jtsisyoda
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=3..._2175_clean.zip
Status:
bases 23 (3 on the way)
pop 63
tech 18
SP's: 6 - HGP, PTS, PEG, WP, VW, EG
23 crawlers
29 clean formers (saved up to upgrade them all as soon as I got Bio-Eng in 2175... cost 870 ec)
201 ec's/turn, 227(?) tech/turn (every three turns)
Building Clean Formers for Boreholes and Condensors. Going for Clean first before Env Econ might have been better.
Three bases set up to pop-boom in a couple turns. Now that I'm looking at that, I wonder if it would've been better to stop at the second beauracracy limit and boom all the bases?
AndiD
Reply to : jtsisyoda
Maybe instead of HGP-CP's-PTS-PEG, HGP-CP's-CP's-PEG-CP's-PTS?
HGP-PTS-PEG-CP's
Or in the long version: You beeline for IA. When you get wealth and crawlers, let your first expansion phase end gradually (IOW don't scrap the pods from the queue if minerals would be lost and they would finish in time because of decent growth), then build crawlers like crazy and get the HGP. Meanwhile your formers build a enough farms (!) and forests, a few build roads to future colony sites.
When you've got it, you have at least one worker in each base, and two in most of them. Keep building crawlers like crazy, only those bases with excessive growth (nut specials, ...) build pods; former roadworks accordingly. Grab the PTS with these crawlers.
In my game, I "only" needed 20% psych at that time and only one base had a doctor, but anyway, use your newfound industrial might (you did build enough farms and forests for workers, didn't you?) to keep building crawlers, this time for the PEG to help it pay the psych cost. Generally each base gets a second former and most of the bases produce a pod (second expansion phase). Every future colony site gets enough farms to feed 3 workers.
At that point you can even try and grab the VW. Bases from the first expansion phase which do not build crawlers, start their net nodes. Bases from the second expansion phase will produce pods, then nodes (thanks@jtsisyoda).
Advantages I see in this approach:
- the HGP adds a talent and the PTS removes a drone from each base without facility (compensates Market completely in a way)
- you make sure you get these SPs as early as possible
- each new pod is a very, very good investment
- with this "little pop boom" you boost everything: cash (!), research, industry, support, votes, ...
- you can build your 2nd former early (in a way your personal WP)
- you will expand a bit more slowly (prep future base site first), but also more controlled (you usually don't get pods and have no roads/sites for them...).
- every frontier base can cope with its own defense if necessary (you can usually build a 1-1-1 in 1 or 2 turns; a defense perim is built quickly as well)
- if you get the VW, your first facility will be a 'node, boosting research again
- in mid-term the 20% psych is all you need to get your boom with Dem, creches, hab complex, treefarms/condensors, so each base starts to boom as soon as you build the respective facilities
You could even try and switch to Dem at some point to remove a few b-drones (and the more you expand the more drones you lose!). You lose 10 free minerals for each new base but two workers more in a fresh base equal four minerals more so you are on par after 2,5 turns, not counting the doctor saved somewhere else. Cash and research will both benefit greatly, too. Maybe someone should try that out...
Disadvantages:
- you have a slight slope while cranking out all the crawlers for the SPs
- you have to find the "optimum" way of producing these crawlers (not cashing in every single crawler, keeping some mineral feeders on forests)
- will not work in arid areas (one rainy / two moist squares per base are sufficient though)
- if you don't get the PEG the psych drains your cash significantly
- lots of required techs: CentEcol, IndEcon, InfNet, Biogen, PlanNet, IA, ProgPsych, AdapEcon
- and more or less required: SocPsych, [Mobility?], EthCalc (Dem), GeneSplicing (to get real benefit from farmed rainly tiles, more workers on forests), EcolEng (condensors and boreholes)
AndiD
Yes, Dem is great! (Someone told me that once but I didn't believe him. Now I do! :-D)
You don't need to dump ANY money into psych after the PTS, just go Dem! (at least in my game) And if you found a base without 10 free minerals but with 3 workers and have a little bit of cash you hardly notice the difference. You don't miss the rushed former anyway since there are 2-4 formers around each newfound base and three squares have been prepared already. The 20% additional growth is nice, too.
Edit: Dem works really best when switching to Dem on the turn before you will build the PTS. So change tech beeline to SocPsych, EthCalc, [Gene Splicing if I remember correctly], ProgPsych, AdapEcon after IA.
2nd edit: For sake of comparison, my game files.
Game upload: http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=5..._pts_vw_peg.zip
Short history:
2128: 6th base founded, 3 years before IA.
0 bases, 7 pop, 17 ec reserve, 16 ec/turn, 20 tech/turn, 6 techs, 5 formers
2146: HGP going to be completed (late because of keeping crawlers)
09 bases, 14 pop, 0 ec reserve, 33 ec/turn, 38 tech/turn, 9 techs, 6 formers
2154: PTS going to be completed. Switch to Dem.
10 bases, 16 pop, 8 ec reserve, 41 ec/turn, 48 tech/turn, 10 techs, 10 formers
2159: nothing special
10 bases, 30 pop, 118 ec reserve, 52 ec/turn, 57 tech/turn, 11 techs, 20 (!) formers
2168: PEG already finished a few years ago. VW to be completed
13 bases, 39 pop, 274 ec reserve, 100 ec/turn, 94 tech/turn, 13 techs, 21 formers
2176: stopped for comparison
14 bases, 44 pop, 69 ec reserve, 111 ec/turn, 114 tech/turn, 15 techs, 24 formers
What I conclude that I'm pretty late in the early game but catch up significantly with the "early" PTS acquisition. Later on I neglect building pods and boreholes, I know. ;-)
arginine
I have observed that the maximum amount of effective psych is 2 * number of people in base. If there are too many beauracracy drones, would that prevent us from being able to GA, and thus pop boom with just psych and buildings to calm people? Is there some way to get around this in order to pop boom as morgan, or are we limited in the number of pop boomable bases that can be built?
jtsisyoda
That's a very important question, Arginine. There's an explanation in the science forum, tech strategy thread:
"I believe we can go to the third b-limit and still pop-boom. The second b-limit means the first citizen would be a drone in all bases, and the third b-limit means you get one super drone in all bases. The usable psych is two times population, so six psych in a size three base gives one talent and two normal drones. Factor in a Holo Theater then HGP, and that's two talents and one worker, enough for a GA. Each two additional population allows four more psych, changing one more drone to a talent, sustaining the GA. That assumes changing drones on the far right to specialists when necessary, requiring quite a few nut crawlers."
If any of that is unclear let me know and I'll try to clarify.
arginine
w/ HGP, get 1 content becomes 1 happy per base.
hmm....
so, a population of 5. It has 0 content.
psych gets 2 happy & 1 content.
w/ HGP, get +1 happy per base.
That becomes 3 happy
GA
a population of 6. It has 0 content.
psych gets 3 happy content.
w/ HGP, get +1 happy per base.
That becomes 4 happy
GA
A population of 5. It has 1 really unhappy.
psych gets 2 happy.
w/ HGP, get +1 happy per base.
That becomes 3 happy
GA
A population of 6. It has 1 really unhappy.
psych gets 2 happy & 1 content
w/ HGP, get +1 happy per base.
That becomes 3 happy & 1 content
GA
A population of 5. It has 2 really unhappy.
psych gets 1 happy, 1 content.
w/ HGP, get +1 happy per base.
That becomes 2 happy, 1 content
no GA
A population of 6. It has 2 really unhappy.
psych gets 2 happy & 1 content
w/ HGP, get +1 happy per base.
That becomes 3 happy & 1 content
GA, but it'll get stuck on the odd numbered base populations
Without the HGP, we can popboom only by not hitting any of the b drones. 1 * 9 = 9 bases with demo. With the HGP, we can take 2 levels of b drones. 3 * 9 = 27 bases with demo. I wonder if the efficiency of children's creches will effect drone calculations (eg. all bases have a children's creche in them, giving us +1 efficiency).
27 bases, not a bad number. I believe this means we really need to get the HGP, as jtsisyoda already stated. There are 3 other human factions involved, so we will probably be able to get only 1 or 2 of the early SPs...
jtsisyoda
Your numbers look right. As a backup plan, if we don't snag HGP, we can build 9 bases and boom them, then build one or two "waves" of CP's. We only need Eth Calc and Gene Splicing, or Eth Calc and WP.
Chaunk
I've posted here (http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview....readID=1442727) a sequence to enable a base to get over the odd sized GA problem, which would enable us to boom 36 bases. 27 seems fine though.
Archaic
2142
Bases: 10 (1 CP en-route)
Pop: 14
Techs: 16
Tech Cost: 558
Tech Accumulated: 494
Tech Per Turn: 67
Next Tech: 2143
Turns per Tech: 9
Energy Reserves: 179
Energy Per Turn: +58
No SP's yet
4 Crawlers active, 7 in production
8 Formers active, 2 in production
Planetary Governor
Pacts with Hive, Angels, Pirates
Treaties with University and Spartans
Truce with Gaians
Plans: Build PTS ASAP, keep expanding. Hold back on Demo Switch (Currently still in FM/Wealth with 50/0/50) until I cannot avoid it due to inefficiency, so as not to harm the Hive Pact. Focus efforts crawlers for HGP, PEG and WP (not in that order).
Thoughts: I can't help but wonder if, with some of my more recent bases, I should've used the initial 10 minerals not to rush a Rec Commons, but to rush a crawler. If I had done so, I believe I would have had the HGP at the very least by now, which would've eliminated the need to build those RC's, and have prevented other potential riots across the faction due to inefficiency.
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