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(20:50:20) ChsThry: hey
(20:53:40) Kassiopeia: Hello.
(20:53:50) Kassiopeia: Ah, the stars seem to be in alignment now
(20:54:31) ChsThry: Have you been in this channel since ~0000?
(20:54:51) Kassiopeia: 0000 GMT? Yes, save for a server reboot
(20:55:05) Kassiopeia: You were here 11 hours ago, but I was fast asleep then.
(20:55:27) ChsThry: I got back home then, and wondered if you might be at your computer. I figured it was worth a try.
(20:55:34) ChsThry: Any other Spartans planning to show up?
(20:55:54) Kassiopeia: Hmm, let me check the thread, it's got new posts...
(20:56:51) Kassiopeia: Googlie needs to get acquainted with irc... really, we could move to a location that can be used with a web interface to make things easier for him, if you know of a good one that's not too public
(20:57:03) ChsThry: I don't. I barely know IRC myself.
(20:57:16) Kassiopeia: There's always the Spartan website's chat, but I'm not sure if we want to reveal its location
(20:58:33) Kassiopeia: It would be nice to have Googlie here. I've been busy with real life stuff so I'm a bit out of the loop on diplomacy, though I do believe I have a general grasp of the ongoings
(20:58:48) ChsThry: For what it's worth. I'm using gAIM. To join, I just need to specify a server, then a channel.
(20:59:25) ChsThry: As you probably already know, I'm one of the dominant players among the Gaians. Even so, I've only been loosely following the diplomacy myself.
(21:00:07) Kassiopeia: I see.
(21:00:26) ChsThry: I have read every single post in our forums and the embassy, however.
(21:01:09) Kassiopeia: I personally skip most of the turn planning and its minutiae, and focus completely on diplomacy and roleplaying.
(21:02:45) ChsThry: I am the primary turn player, so I lose track of the diplomatic aspects of the game. Even so, I know enough to contribute my opinion meaningfully.
(21:03:50) Kassiopeia: Do you ever get worried that you'll accidentally screw something up when turnplaying? I myself would, I'm way too neurotic and pedantic to turnplay.
(21:04:20) ChsThry: Not really, I play TCP/IP, where I have to play my turns quickly and without worrying.
(21:04:36) ChsThry: And if I screw something up, oh well.
(21:05:12) Kassiopeia: Ooh, TCP/IP. I've never had a chance to have a go at that. I've played a few lan games in my time though.
(21:05:26) ChsThry: Close enough
(21:06:23) ChsThry: I think we have something diplomatic to discuss, but I'm not sure where to start. I did state my opinions fairly plainly on Nov 13th in our embassy.
(21:07:22) Kassiopeia: Well, to be honest, this is mainly a briefing for me. It appears, to me, that our relations have deteriorated, and there are shouts in the peanut gallery that you are, in fact, planning a vendetta against us. I wanted to set this up to get acquainted with your side of the story. What did we do wrong?
(21:07:35) Kassiopeia: Surely this all can't be hingeing on just Ethical Calculus?
(21:08:05) ChsThry: We have some, in my opinion, legitimate gripes against the Spartans. However, I'm sure you have some as well. This is not all based on EthCalc.
(21:08:39) ChsThry: Spartan customs are grating to us, particularly the custom of technology embargo
(21:09:13) ChsThry: If I drop out of this chat suddenly, my computer crashed and I'm rebooting.
(21:09:59) Kassiopeia: I can see why you'd find it grating, but we are in a tenuous position ourselves - we have a very fragile monopoly on communication and we're trying to take advantage of that as much as possible. You can't really blame us for that, since it allows us to have a modicum of a tech lead despite our innate orientation.
(21:10:58) Kassiopeia: We're also still very worried about Morgan. They are rebuilding bases to take all advantage of the population bonus given by PTS; I've seen myself many times what a Morgan unleashed can do. Not a pretty sight.
(21:11:00) ChsThry: You have another opportunity for a tech lead that you don't seem to be capitalizing on. You do not have a monopoly on communication; merely a superior position.
(21:11:17) ChsThry: Morgan is a threat, but nothing to panic about yet.
(21:11:46) Kassiopeia: The Maniac Manifesto would still benefit us three all alike, would it not? Although the Junta has by now just about thrown it out of the window as far as plans are considered.
(21:12:11) Kassiopeia: What would this another opportunity you speak of be?
(21:12:12) ChsThry: The Maniac Manifesto seems like an extreme overreaction to Morgan.
(21:12:36) Kassiopeia: I suppose this is just a difference in opinion that can't be bridged - we found it perfect for the time.
(21:13:21) ChsThry: As this is a 4-player game, there's still a lot of time before Morgan could be stronger than the three of us combined, if that's what it takes.
(21:13:39) Kassiopeia: I suppose, but if we react too slowly, the result could be ugly.
(21:13:49) ChsThry: The result will be just as ugly if we react too soon.
(21:14:04) Kassiopeia: So you think the alliance would somehow disintegrate prematurely with no serious common threat?
(21:14:08) Kassiopeia: well, alliance is a strong word.
(21:14:33) ChsThry: Given that only one of us can win in the end, someone will lead one of the factions to betray another. The only variable is how weak Morgan gets before that happens.
(21:14:42) ChsThry: A fixed-term alliance wouldn't suffer that, of course.
(21:15:01) Kassiopeia: Hmm. Might you be more interested in a plan such as the Maniac Manifesto at a later date, then? Just something to tell our treaty-drafting drones to keep in mind.
(21:15:24) Obstructor [obstructor@dh80-253.xnet.hr] entered the room.
(21:15:28) Kassiopeia: Hello.
(21:15:34) ChsThry: It's hard to speak for my whole faction, but deep cooperation is not out of the question. We do have legitimate doubts about the Spartans, however.
(21:15:36) Obstructor is now known as Illuminatus_recording_device
(21:15:44) Illuminatus_recording_device: hello - just observing
(21:15:45) ChsThry: Welcome to an actual diplomatic meeting, Illuminatus!
(21:16:43) Illuminatus_recording_device: carry on - I don't believe I'll participate much anyway
(21:17:00) Kassiopeia: I'm trying to get Googlie aboard.
(21:17:07) ChsThry: Sorry, didn't realize this meeting room would be bugged. You don't mind, right? :P
(21:17:48) Kassiopeia: We can always send a probe in later and wipe out all recordings of - umm, I mean, no, of course not.
(21:20:22) ChsThry: So does it look like Googlie will be arriving soon?
(21:20:45) Kassiopeia: He is online, and I'm hoping that as I type this is frantically trying to figure out the ropes of the irc client I suggested to him
(21:20:51) Kassiopeia: *he is frantically
(21:25:26) Kassiopeia: In any case, are the concerns voiced by some Spartans uncalled for? Can we have your word on it that the differences we've had so far will not result in a vendetta? We were just talking the other day what would happen if a dimensional rift would suddenly throw a unit of ours in the midst of your lands.
(21:25:54) Kassiopeia: Rest assured, we have no desire to wage war with you (save for any obvious and inevitable final struggle for superiority).
(21:26:15) ChsThry: I'm not sure what we'd do, but we couldn't cause much damage with a single unit.
(21:26:31) ChsThry: We'd have a long debate before actually moving the unit, I'm sure.
(21:26:41) Kassiopeia: I was talking about a Spartan unit getting moved.
(21:26:55) ChsThry: Ah, didn't read your sentence carefully enough.
(21:27:33) ChsThry: In any case, I've analyzed the game, and it looks futile for either of us to attack the other for a while.
(21:28:37) Kassiopeia: I concur, although I'm not a military expert per se.
(21:28:56) Kassiopeia: But I'm comfortable with the shared thought that we both find vendetta at this point meaningless
(21:29:13) ChsThry: You know about where we are, and we know about where you are, so based on a simple calculation of distance, warfare would be cumbersome at best.
(21:29:35) Kassiopeia: Hmm, Googlie can't make it work. We could use a java chatroom on the Spartan website I mentioned earlier, but you're going to need to have java installed (if you are using IE, you probably have).
(21:29:58) ChsThry: I don't have Java installed, as far as I know, and my IE version is deliberately crippled
(21:30:05) Kassiopeia: Yeah, it would be cumbersome. And it would require careful planning, so it'd be a vendetta you couldn't just outright declare.
(21:30:48) Kassiopeia: I'm only now installing java myself. I'll just ask him to post some thoughts and I'll try to get him involved that way.
(21:31:22) ChsThry: We do know that Yang is more of a threat to you than to us. This does explain some confusion in the embassy over him.
(21:31:47) Kassiopeia: Hmm. Intriguing. Considering that you've actually been in vendetta with him (still are?).
(21:32:01) ChsThry: Even considering that.
(21:32:14) Kassiopeia: But then, I do not know enough of the geography - the AI sucks at operating on another continent.
(21:39:18) Kassiopeia: I'm waiting for Googlie to post his thoughts on the private forum right now.
(21:39:24) ChsThry: I expected as much
(21:39:32) Kassiopeia: Oh wait, I already said that.
(21:55:40) Illuminatus_recording_device: what a busy summit
(21:55:56) ChsThry: Not sure what more to discuss.
(21:57:08) Kassiopeia: Me neither. I'm just waiting for Googlie to say if he has anything further...
(21:57:54) Googloie [~googlie@4.16.3.36] entered the room.
(21:58:01) Googloie: hey
(21:58:04) Kassiopeia: !
(21:58:07) ChsThry: Welcome
(21:58:10) Kassiopeia: Um, I mean, hello.
(21:58:10) Googloie: found it
(21:58:15) Kassiopeia: Great
(21:58:16) Illuminatus_recording_device: hello
(21:58:25) Googloie: (can't spell my own name, tho
(21:58:38) Kassiopeia: You can change it by typing this: /nick newnickname
(21:58:49) Googloie: clunky laptop keyboard
(21:59:02) Googloie is now known as Googlie
(21:59:05) Googlie: aha
(21:59:25) Kassiopeia: There we go. Now, Googlie, is there something specific you've had in mind?
(21:59:36) Googlie: So, my dfear Gaianh friends - we have gotten off to a bit of a rocky start
(21:59:58) ChsThry: After some discussions with Kassiopeia, it seems we had different ideas about the same things.
(22:00:25) Googlie: I want to apologize for the Embassy episode - it seemed like a neat roleplay at the time, but I do accept thqat I offended some of you
(22:00:29) Kassiopeia: The Gaians are open to a Maniac Manifesto like proposal, but not yet. They see the Morganites as too small a threat right now for that.
(22:00:47) Kassiopeia: They also think the Hive is more a threat to us than to them.
(22:01:00) Googlie: Hmm - they are already employing the Kody manoeuver from the last game
(22:01:21) Kassiopeia: Yeah, I pointed that out too.
(22:01:30) ChsThry: If you want to refer to last game, you need to show me where and give me plenty of time to read; this is my first DG.
(22:01:38) Googlie: (building 2 colony pods in a size 3 base, thwen founding 2 new size 3 bases as a result
(22:01:47) ChsThry: I know that technique. Didn't know it had a name
(22:02:01) Googlie: I'm extrapolatying that they'll hjave over 100 pops within fifteen turns
(22:02:35) Googlie: (It's the most powerfull way of pop-boominf there is)
(22:02:47) ChsThry: They need good terrain to actually use that many bases productively
(22:03:10) Googlie: at least for Morgan, 'cos he can't conventionally popboom as he can't run Planned
(22:03:27) ChsThry: That, and their bases aren't otherwise productive during that time, though spending minerals/energy on increasing population is often worthwhile.
(22:03:45) Googlie: The hive, I agree, is becoming a major threat. This turn every base is producing an impact unit
(22:03:53) ChsThry: Ah, but you don't agree
(22:04:19) Googlie: I don't agree that it's the main threat - a human player always will be, IMO
(22:04:31) ChsThry: The Hive is more of a resource than a threat.
(22:05:42) Googlie: he's only got a couple of techs that the Uni doesn't have, but they (with the PK's) will have a couple the Hive lack in a turn or so
(22:06:04) ChsThry: You know more about the University and PKs than we do.
(22:06:24) Googlie: But, of course, the Hive's techs are the juicy military ones (Gatling is their next tech) whwereas the Uni's are the builder techs
(22:06:41) ChsThry: You also have a different sense of juicy, but that's to be expected.
(22:07:04) Googlie: And that, too, seems to be a bit of a bone of contention between our factions - the fact that we're jealously holding on to the AI commlinks
(22:07:23) ChsThry: It is, but that's not the only point of contention.
(22:08:04) Googlie: As we set out in the Embassy discussions, almost from the pre-game days we decided that we'd ignore the traditional Ind Auto route to concentrate on Dioc Flex and a navy
(22:08:28) ChsThry: The Spartans are unusually well-equipped for this, as they disdain wealth, and have the prereq to Doc: Flex.
(22:08:31) Googlie: it did let us meet the other factions early on, but cramped our industrial growth
(22:08:41) Googlie: that's true
(22:08:54) ChsThry: I believe your claims about the cost to you are exaggerated, as I stated in our embassy.
(22:09:00) Googlie: Call it our "faction advantage" perhaps
(22:09:25) Googlie: well, it's 2148 and we've only managed to buiold 1 crawler so far
(22:09:38) ChsThry: You've been working on your population.
(22:10:10) Googlie: LOL - no thanks to me. Maniac's the micromanager. We'd be in drone riots if it were left to me
(22:10:34) ChsThry: I believe your population is higher than ours right now, and has been for at least a little while.
(22:10:36) Googlie: I don't have the skills (or the patience) to watch a base every turn to squeeze that last nut out of it
(22:11:14) Googlie: Well, didn't you lose a colony pod in the first three or four turns? - at l;east your Voice of Planet hinted at it
(22:11:37) ChsThry: I wasn't around for several turns early in the game, so I don't remember what happened.
(22:12:24) Illuminatus_recording_device: IIRC colony pod was lost in begining due to highly unexpected MW appearance
(22:12:34) ChsThry: In any case, a population unit is more valuable than a crawler. I'm sure you suffered your own losses.
(22:12:43) Googlie: I know that for the first twenty years or so I ran a thread in our forum where I tried to predict when the next base would nbe founded for all 3 of the others - but the Gaians were the most difficult 'cos of that dropped hint
(22:13:45) Googlie: We've had some beneficial podpops, but have lost a rover when we popped a multiple worm event
(22:14:59) Googlie: But to go back to our differences of opinion .... we have been equally adamant with the Angels and Morgan re not giving out commlinks
(22:15:32) Googlie: 'cos we do see having them as being the direct result of strategic choices we made way back
(22:15:36) ChsThry: If that's your position, so be it, but be aware that we will communicate with each other despite your best efforts; it's only a matter of time.
(22:16:16) Googlie: we know - it's likely that elections will be called pretty soon anyway, so our "contacts" advantage wouyld disappear overnight
(22:17:04) Googlie: We're sure, for instance, that Morgan either has, or will have, foiul probes in the oceans rapidly, ever since they discovered flex
(22:18:09) ChsThry: Sounds like a reasonable strategy, but even the Morganites only have so many resources to go around.
(22:18:13) Googlie: Interestingly, though, the Hive just has 1 damaged foil, and the Uni have no naval vessels - I guess the landmass challenges are great enough for them to concentrate on going that way
(22:18:44) ChsThry: Is the foil a unity foil? I could open our turn, but that would be cumbersome.
(22:19:44) Googlie: No - I they built it. I'll have a look
(22:20:11) Illuminatus_recording_device: they've produced foil some time ago
(22:20:26) Illuminatus_recording_device: it was there the first time we looked at their datalinks
(22:21:30) Googlie left the room (quit: Quit: ).
(22:22:08) Kassiopeia: Let's just hope he'll know the way back.
(22:24:09) Googlie [~googlie@4.16.3.36] entered the room.
(22:24:23) Googlie: hmm - that was a bad idea
(22:24:33) Googlie: it's a 2-2-4 foil
(22:24:49) ChsThry: Ah, a military foil. I guess he's been popping pods.
(22:25:27) Googlie: either that or built it - in fact, I don't think you can pop a laser foil, just a Unity Gunship (and he had 2, but lost one)
(22:26:11) ChsThry: You can't pop a 2-2-4 foil. I mean, since it's damaged, I guess he's been popping pods with it.
(22:26:49) Googlie: Ah, yes. I see what you mean now.
(22:27:16) Googlie: I agree - our ships have also encountered the odd IoD and taken some damage (as well as morale upgrades!!)
(22:27:45) Googlie: It's a bit easier for us starting with Disciplined units, oc course
(22:28:02) ChsThry: Yep, and the AI has strange bonuses against native life.
(22:29:00) Illuminatus_recording_device: gotta go - see you in two days Chaos
(22:29:09) ChsThry: Have fun
(22:29:16) Illuminatus_recording_device left the room (quit: Quit: ).
(22:29:44) Googlie: Our rover that's been hemmed in with the Hive Scout, former, base and your mindworm has moved east last turn (to where your MW was - will it be able to reach the coast, or will your MW still be blocking this next turn?
(22:30:18) ChsThry: We are repositioning our mind worm, as it is of no further use at that location.
(22:31:09) Googlie: Aha - then maybe our rover will be able to get to the trannie steaming towards it
(22:31:32) ChsThry: You still use steam power? And you claim to have a tech lead? :P
(22:31:43) Kassiopeia: hey, as long as it works...
(22:31:51) Kassiopeia: it's not like we'll afford upgrades anytime soon
(22:31:54) Googlie: Pity Illuminatus left - I sense that the main bone of contention was between him and me
(22:32:20) ChsThry: He didn't plan to participate much in this discussion, only pay attention to it.
(22:32:54) Googlie: Ah - same as with us - I didn't plan on attending, but am doing so in Maniac's absence
(22:33:11) ChsThry: Sounds like Maniac fills a role more similar to mine.
(22:33:36) Googlie: (planned not to attend in case I got drawn into a shouting match with Illuminatus)
(22:34:19) ChsThry: If things are that bad between you, then you need to meet, not avoid each other.
(22:34:26) Googlie: Maniac is our theorist, I guess, while I'm more strategy development and execution
(22:34:49) Googlie: Well, Kass is the diplomat
(22:35:03) ChsThry: I am, as you should know, the primary turn player.
(22:35:19) ChsThry: This also leads me to be involved in sundry aspects of the turn besides actually playing it.
(22:36:22) Googlie: Yup - Maniac started off as ours, but after he started commuting to Gent, I took over the turnplaying. I do annoy him at times, I'm sure, as I miss the opportunity from time to time for an extra mineral or nut
(22:36:57) Googlie: I was happy enough just running the covert ops & gathering intel on all the others
(22:37:45) Googlie: So is there hope for better relations between us?
(22:38:04) Googlie: You arfe pretty deep with the Angels in leapfrogs
(22:38:25) ChsThry: Maybe. As we may have discussed before you arrived, vendetta would be futile. Full cooperation is unwarranted. The most desireable state is somewhere in between.
(22:39:50) Googlie: We can live with that. We do have a couple of techs that would accekerate your growth and development, and we've been negotiating with your partners re these
(22:40:31) Googlie: If the Gaian Union is happy enough with that style, it works for us as well
(22:40:55) ChsThry: Some of your proposals have been superficially balanced but in actuality substantially lopsided. This annoys me, and probably others.
(22:42:18) Googlie: I guess Ethical Calculus is a sticking point right now. We've offered 2 alternatives to your partners
(22:43:00) ChsThry: I don't know the details of your relations with the Angels, as I have enough to do already. Ethical Calculus itself is not the problem, however.
(22:43:22) Googlie: And I still think that your perception regarding the whole Doc Loyalty issue was way off base. Thje Command Nexus bever was a priority for us - more opportunistic, if you will
(22:43:57) ChsThry: Your proposal to be the faction to have strong units and defend the rest of us is not appealing.
(22:44:07) Googlie: Doc Loyalty only ever was important for us as a stepping stone to Intellectual Integrity
(22:44:53) Googlie: But it must be apparent that each faction has methods of winning this game that are essentially denied to it?
(22:45:16) Googlie: Sparta won't win economically or through transcendence
(22:45:31) Googlie: Morgan won't win militarily
(22:45:47) ChsThry: Most factions can't win economically. Sparta has no particular research handicap and has a normal chance of winning via transcendence.
(22:45:53) Googlie: Gaians and Angels likely can't win economically either
(22:46:38) Googlie: I don't think any faction that can't run wealth has a hope in hell of winning by transcendence
(22:47:15) ChsThry: Wealth, though good, is not the game. Knowledge is still a good choice.
(22:47:30) Googlie: we'll always be scrabbling for ec's .. and as a result can never rush a network node, or research hospital. etc etc
(22:47:49) ChsThry: You do have the option to run FM. We don't. Your economic options are broader than ours.
(22:48:14) Googlie: But FM kills our military.
(22:48:23) ChsThry: So only run FM some of the time.
(22:48:43) ChsThry: If you're successfully conquering all the time, you should be doing fine.
(22:49:34) Googlie: That's possible, but would be a logistical nightmare (recalling troops and nave, change to FM for soem ec booming, then switch back again when we need to send troops or navies abroad
(22:50:18) ChsThry: Wealth by itself does not contribute many ECs, either. The industry bonus is nice, but that's your faction's flaw - low industry.
(22:50:59) Googlie: It's actually better to monopolize the offshore podpopping as the odds of popping 100 or 200 ec's is higher with a gunship than on land with a scout or rover
(22:51:23) ChsThry: Well, then you're making up for your EC deficiency. I don't pity you at all for your drawbacks.
(22:52:04) Googlie: Yeah - industry is the killer - we need a couple of boreholes at every base, but that prolly needs us to run green for the Planet bonus, but that kuills industry even more
(22:52:21) ChsThry: The game wouldn't be fun without these tradeoffs.
(22:53:13) Googlie: LOL - I agree. And the managing around them is half the fun (especially in sibgle player where social choices have far greater repercussions
(22:53:57) ChsThry: In a 2-player game, your gripe may be legitimate, but with 4 players, the fact that some factions are better than others will not significantly influence the outcome, thanks to diplomacy.
(22:55:17) Googlie: Hmm - partially. With co-op victory turned off, every diplomatic offer and counter-offer becomes suspect
(22:56:11) ChsThry: Of course, but small boons such as single technologies and sums of ECs have decaying effects over time, usually.
(22:56:35) ChsThry: Assuming an actual exchange, rather than a gift.
(22:56:45) Googlie: I think it actually is detracting a little in this ACDG (buit in the last, the early victory pact between the Hive and the Drones meant that the outcome was decided almost from 2125 onwards, so I understand the desire not to have co-op this time round
(22:57:36) ChsThry: For future ACDGs, it might make sense to analyze exactly what victory means. If, in theory, we agreed to pact for the rest of the game, and share any victory the other might achieve, what rules could stop us?
(22:58:38) Googlie: That's true -
(23:02:10) Googlie: Is there anything else we need to cover? - we're obviously agreeing to disagree on whethern our tarde offers were fair or unduly biaised
(23:02:23) Googlie: trade offers, that should be
(23:02:46) ChsThry: I'm not sure. This meeting has been productive, but trade offers are best considered over time, in the embassy and our forums.
(23:05:23) Googlie: I'll prolly let Kass (or Maniac) handle Gaian negotiations. I seem to have a penchant for putting my foot in it when I try to get involved
(23:07:08) Kassiopeia: Maniac at least for the end of the month if there is something to be negotiated - still 12 000 words left on my novel
(23:07:26) Kassiopeia: although I will heavily rewrite it come December. But it won't be as tight scheduled.
(23:07:34) Kassiopeia: *tightly
(23:08:02) ChsThry: In any case, should Morgan become relatively more powerful, we will have more impetus to negotiate. If he tops out, we'll have less.
(23:08:56) Googlie: well, of course, there really is a Morgan "wing" within our Junta, that believes that closer co-operation with Morgan is in Sparta's best interests
(23:09:05) ChsThry: That's fine.
(23:09:24) Googlie: it's not just roleplaying, although RP is a by product of it
(23:09:27) ChsThry: I'm not worried about the possibility because of the restriction on coop victory.
(23:11:23) Googlie: unles, as you say, their is an agreement to jointly win (say a joint planetary government, with an economic Czar and a military Czar) - obviously can't be accommodated in-game, but then democracy games are a bastard child anyway
(23:11:41) Kassiopeia: isuch a development would be interesting.
(23:11:49) ChsThry: Yes, I brought that up, but I'm still not worried about seeing it realized.
(23:12:21) Kassiopeia: it might result in the mods selecting an arbitrary victor (based on victory score or somesuch), which would result in a split between those who think only faction A won and those who think both factions B and A won
(23:12:22) ChsThry: Suppose you try that, and it fails. You lose. Suppose you try it, and it works. Something interesting happens.
(23:12:45) Googlie: but we're not there yet anyway - and there couild be 4 winners - these 2 above and a Information Czar and an Ecology Czar
(23:13:00) ChsThry: And if you try some sort of voting or random victory scheme, and Morgan is much more powerful than you, then you are in trouble.
(23:13:00) Kassiopeia: hehe.
(23:14:14) Googlie: One aspect of a non-co-op win is that it prolly, by default, makes the AI more powerful
(23:14:20) ChsThry: From a game theory point of view, I believe you would decrease your chance of winning by cooperating too strongly with Morgan, whereas you might increase your chance of winning by negotiating with other factions, if done properly.
(23:14:58) ChsThry: On the other hand, the point of the game is to enjoy it, not directly to win.
(23:15:10) Googlie: in that an incentive to gang up on it is gone - spoils-sharing is much more difficult ti agree on when today's pactmates are going to be tomorrow's enemies
(23:17:00) Googlie: I agree. If Morgan gets to Fusion power (or better), Tachyon shield defenses for his bases and neutronium armor, we can't win
(23:17:25) ChsThry: Well, he will get there sooner or later. He'll have a hard time getting stronger than all three of us combined.
(23:19:35) Googlie: That's true.
(23:21:12) Googlie: Anyway - time to go, I guess, before we starft rehashing old arguments
(23:21:21) ChsThry: Cya.
(23:21:32) Googlie: bfn
(23:21:42) Kassiopeia: I have nothing to add, so we can probably declare this meeting concluded
(23:21:43) Googlie: Thanks Kass, for setting it up
(23:21:50) Kassiopeia: No problem
(23:22:07) Googlie left the room.
(20:53:40) Kassiopeia: Hello.
(20:53:50) Kassiopeia: Ah, the stars seem to be in alignment now
(20:54:31) ChsThry: Have you been in this channel since ~0000?
(20:54:51) Kassiopeia: 0000 GMT? Yes, save for a server reboot
(20:55:05) Kassiopeia: You were here 11 hours ago, but I was fast asleep then.
(20:55:27) ChsThry: I got back home then, and wondered if you might be at your computer. I figured it was worth a try.
(20:55:34) ChsThry: Any other Spartans planning to show up?
(20:55:54) Kassiopeia: Hmm, let me check the thread, it's got new posts...
(20:56:51) Kassiopeia: Googlie needs to get acquainted with irc... really, we could move to a location that can be used with a web interface to make things easier for him, if you know of a good one that's not too public
(20:57:03) ChsThry: I don't. I barely know IRC myself.
(20:57:16) Kassiopeia: There's always the Spartan website's chat, but I'm not sure if we want to reveal its location
(20:58:33) Kassiopeia: It would be nice to have Googlie here. I've been busy with real life stuff so I'm a bit out of the loop on diplomacy, though I do believe I have a general grasp of the ongoings
(20:58:48) ChsThry: For what it's worth. I'm using gAIM. To join, I just need to specify a server, then a channel.
(20:59:25) ChsThry: As you probably already know, I'm one of the dominant players among the Gaians. Even so, I've only been loosely following the diplomacy myself.
(21:00:07) Kassiopeia: I see.
(21:00:26) ChsThry: I have read every single post in our forums and the embassy, however.
(21:01:09) Kassiopeia: I personally skip most of the turn planning and its minutiae, and focus completely on diplomacy and roleplaying.
(21:02:45) ChsThry: I am the primary turn player, so I lose track of the diplomatic aspects of the game. Even so, I know enough to contribute my opinion meaningfully.
(21:03:50) Kassiopeia: Do you ever get worried that you'll accidentally screw something up when turnplaying? I myself would, I'm way too neurotic and pedantic to turnplay.
(21:04:20) ChsThry: Not really, I play TCP/IP, where I have to play my turns quickly and without worrying.
(21:04:36) ChsThry: And if I screw something up, oh well.
(21:05:12) Kassiopeia: Ooh, TCP/IP. I've never had a chance to have a go at that. I've played a few lan games in my time though.
(21:05:26) ChsThry: Close enough
(21:06:23) ChsThry: I think we have something diplomatic to discuss, but I'm not sure where to start. I did state my opinions fairly plainly on Nov 13th in our embassy.
(21:07:22) Kassiopeia: Well, to be honest, this is mainly a briefing for me. It appears, to me, that our relations have deteriorated, and there are shouts in the peanut gallery that you are, in fact, planning a vendetta against us. I wanted to set this up to get acquainted with your side of the story. What did we do wrong?
(21:07:35) Kassiopeia: Surely this all can't be hingeing on just Ethical Calculus?
(21:08:05) ChsThry: We have some, in my opinion, legitimate gripes against the Spartans. However, I'm sure you have some as well. This is not all based on EthCalc.
(21:08:39) ChsThry: Spartan customs are grating to us, particularly the custom of technology embargo
(21:09:13) ChsThry: If I drop out of this chat suddenly, my computer crashed and I'm rebooting.
(21:09:59) Kassiopeia: I can see why you'd find it grating, but we are in a tenuous position ourselves - we have a very fragile monopoly on communication and we're trying to take advantage of that as much as possible. You can't really blame us for that, since it allows us to have a modicum of a tech lead despite our innate orientation.
(21:10:58) Kassiopeia: We're also still very worried about Morgan. They are rebuilding bases to take all advantage of the population bonus given by PTS; I've seen myself many times what a Morgan unleashed can do. Not a pretty sight.
(21:11:00) ChsThry: You have another opportunity for a tech lead that you don't seem to be capitalizing on. You do not have a monopoly on communication; merely a superior position.
(21:11:17) ChsThry: Morgan is a threat, but nothing to panic about yet.
(21:11:46) Kassiopeia: The Maniac Manifesto would still benefit us three all alike, would it not? Although the Junta has by now just about thrown it out of the window as far as plans are considered.
(21:12:11) Kassiopeia: What would this another opportunity you speak of be?
(21:12:12) ChsThry: The Maniac Manifesto seems like an extreme overreaction to Morgan.
(21:12:36) Kassiopeia: I suppose this is just a difference in opinion that can't be bridged - we found it perfect for the time.
(21:13:21) ChsThry: As this is a 4-player game, there's still a lot of time before Morgan could be stronger than the three of us combined, if that's what it takes.
(21:13:39) Kassiopeia: I suppose, but if we react too slowly, the result could be ugly.
(21:13:49) ChsThry: The result will be just as ugly if we react too soon.
(21:14:04) Kassiopeia: So you think the alliance would somehow disintegrate prematurely with no serious common threat?
(21:14:08) Kassiopeia: well, alliance is a strong word.
(21:14:33) ChsThry: Given that only one of us can win in the end, someone will lead one of the factions to betray another. The only variable is how weak Morgan gets before that happens.
(21:14:42) ChsThry: A fixed-term alliance wouldn't suffer that, of course.
(21:15:01) Kassiopeia: Hmm. Might you be more interested in a plan such as the Maniac Manifesto at a later date, then? Just something to tell our treaty-drafting drones to keep in mind.
(21:15:24) Obstructor [obstructor@dh80-253.xnet.hr] entered the room.
(21:15:28) Kassiopeia: Hello.
(21:15:34) ChsThry: It's hard to speak for my whole faction, but deep cooperation is not out of the question. We do have legitimate doubts about the Spartans, however.
(21:15:36) Obstructor is now known as Illuminatus_recording_device
(21:15:44) Illuminatus_recording_device: hello - just observing
(21:15:45) ChsThry: Welcome to an actual diplomatic meeting, Illuminatus!
(21:16:43) Illuminatus_recording_device: carry on - I don't believe I'll participate much anyway
(21:17:00) Kassiopeia: I'm trying to get Googlie aboard.
(21:17:07) ChsThry: Sorry, didn't realize this meeting room would be bugged. You don't mind, right? :P
(21:17:48) Kassiopeia: We can always send a probe in later and wipe out all recordings of - umm, I mean, no, of course not.
(21:20:22) ChsThry: So does it look like Googlie will be arriving soon?
(21:20:45) Kassiopeia: He is online, and I'm hoping that as I type this is frantically trying to figure out the ropes of the irc client I suggested to him
(21:20:51) Kassiopeia: *he is frantically
(21:25:26) Kassiopeia: In any case, are the concerns voiced by some Spartans uncalled for? Can we have your word on it that the differences we've had so far will not result in a vendetta? We were just talking the other day what would happen if a dimensional rift would suddenly throw a unit of ours in the midst of your lands.
(21:25:54) Kassiopeia: Rest assured, we have no desire to wage war with you (save for any obvious and inevitable final struggle for superiority).
(21:26:15) ChsThry: I'm not sure what we'd do, but we couldn't cause much damage with a single unit.
(21:26:31) ChsThry: We'd have a long debate before actually moving the unit, I'm sure.
(21:26:41) Kassiopeia: I was talking about a Spartan unit getting moved.
(21:26:55) ChsThry: Ah, didn't read your sentence carefully enough.
(21:27:33) ChsThry: In any case, I've analyzed the game, and it looks futile for either of us to attack the other for a while.
(21:28:37) Kassiopeia: I concur, although I'm not a military expert per se.
(21:28:56) Kassiopeia: But I'm comfortable with the shared thought that we both find vendetta at this point meaningless
(21:29:13) ChsThry: You know about where we are, and we know about where you are, so based on a simple calculation of distance, warfare would be cumbersome at best.
(21:29:35) Kassiopeia: Hmm, Googlie can't make it work. We could use a java chatroom on the Spartan website I mentioned earlier, but you're going to need to have java installed (if you are using IE, you probably have).
(21:29:58) ChsThry: I don't have Java installed, as far as I know, and my IE version is deliberately crippled
(21:30:05) Kassiopeia: Yeah, it would be cumbersome. And it would require careful planning, so it'd be a vendetta you couldn't just outright declare.
(21:30:48) Kassiopeia: I'm only now installing java myself. I'll just ask him to post some thoughts and I'll try to get him involved that way.
(21:31:22) ChsThry: We do know that Yang is more of a threat to you than to us. This does explain some confusion in the embassy over him.
(21:31:47) Kassiopeia: Hmm. Intriguing. Considering that you've actually been in vendetta with him (still are?).
(21:32:01) ChsThry: Even considering that.
(21:32:14) Kassiopeia: But then, I do not know enough of the geography - the AI sucks at operating on another continent.
(21:39:18) Kassiopeia: I'm waiting for Googlie to post his thoughts on the private forum right now.
(21:39:24) ChsThry: I expected as much
(21:39:32) Kassiopeia: Oh wait, I already said that.
(21:55:40) Illuminatus_recording_device: what a busy summit
(21:55:56) ChsThry: Not sure what more to discuss.
(21:57:08) Kassiopeia: Me neither. I'm just waiting for Googlie to say if he has anything further...
(21:57:54) Googloie [~googlie@4.16.3.36] entered the room.
(21:58:01) Googloie: hey
(21:58:04) Kassiopeia: !
(21:58:07) ChsThry: Welcome
(21:58:10) Kassiopeia: Um, I mean, hello.
(21:58:10) Googloie: found it
(21:58:15) Kassiopeia: Great
(21:58:16) Illuminatus_recording_device: hello
(21:58:25) Googloie: (can't spell my own name, tho
(21:58:38) Kassiopeia: You can change it by typing this: /nick newnickname
(21:58:49) Googloie: clunky laptop keyboard
(21:59:02) Googloie is now known as Googlie
(21:59:05) Googlie: aha
(21:59:25) Kassiopeia: There we go. Now, Googlie, is there something specific you've had in mind?
(21:59:36) Googlie: So, my dfear Gaianh friends - we have gotten off to a bit of a rocky start
(21:59:58) ChsThry: After some discussions with Kassiopeia, it seems we had different ideas about the same things.
(22:00:25) Googlie: I want to apologize for the Embassy episode - it seemed like a neat roleplay at the time, but I do accept thqat I offended some of you
(22:00:29) Kassiopeia: The Gaians are open to a Maniac Manifesto like proposal, but not yet. They see the Morganites as too small a threat right now for that.
(22:00:47) Kassiopeia: They also think the Hive is more a threat to us than to them.
(22:01:00) Googlie: Hmm - they are already employing the Kody manoeuver from the last game
(22:01:21) Kassiopeia: Yeah, I pointed that out too.
(22:01:30) ChsThry: If you want to refer to last game, you need to show me where and give me plenty of time to read; this is my first DG.
(22:01:38) Googlie: (building 2 colony pods in a size 3 base, thwen founding 2 new size 3 bases as a result
(22:01:47) ChsThry: I know that technique. Didn't know it had a name
(22:02:01) Googlie: I'm extrapolatying that they'll hjave over 100 pops within fifteen turns
(22:02:35) Googlie: (It's the most powerfull way of pop-boominf there is)
(22:02:47) ChsThry: They need good terrain to actually use that many bases productively
(22:03:10) Googlie: at least for Morgan, 'cos he can't conventionally popboom as he can't run Planned
(22:03:27) ChsThry: That, and their bases aren't otherwise productive during that time, though spending minerals/energy on increasing population is often worthwhile.
(22:03:45) Googlie: The hive, I agree, is becoming a major threat. This turn every base is producing an impact unit
(22:03:53) ChsThry: Ah, but you don't agree
(22:04:19) Googlie: I don't agree that it's the main threat - a human player always will be, IMO
(22:04:31) ChsThry: The Hive is more of a resource than a threat.
(22:05:42) Googlie: he's only got a couple of techs that the Uni doesn't have, but they (with the PK's) will have a couple the Hive lack in a turn or so
(22:06:04) ChsThry: You know more about the University and PKs than we do.
(22:06:24) Googlie: But, of course, the Hive's techs are the juicy military ones (Gatling is their next tech) whwereas the Uni's are the builder techs
(22:06:41) ChsThry: You also have a different sense of juicy, but that's to be expected.
(22:07:04) Googlie: And that, too, seems to be a bit of a bone of contention between our factions - the fact that we're jealously holding on to the AI commlinks
(22:07:23) ChsThry: It is, but that's not the only point of contention.
(22:08:04) Googlie: As we set out in the Embassy discussions, almost from the pre-game days we decided that we'd ignore the traditional Ind Auto route to concentrate on Dioc Flex and a navy
(22:08:28) ChsThry: The Spartans are unusually well-equipped for this, as they disdain wealth, and have the prereq to Doc: Flex.
(22:08:31) Googlie: it did let us meet the other factions early on, but cramped our industrial growth
(22:08:41) Googlie: that's true
(22:08:54) ChsThry: I believe your claims about the cost to you are exaggerated, as I stated in our embassy.
(22:09:00) Googlie: Call it our "faction advantage" perhaps
(22:09:25) Googlie: well, it's 2148 and we've only managed to buiold 1 crawler so far
(22:09:38) ChsThry: You've been working on your population.
(22:10:10) Googlie: LOL - no thanks to me. Maniac's the micromanager. We'd be in drone riots if it were left to me
(22:10:34) ChsThry: I believe your population is higher than ours right now, and has been for at least a little while.
(22:10:36) Googlie: I don't have the skills (or the patience) to watch a base every turn to squeeze that last nut out of it
(22:11:14) Googlie: Well, didn't you lose a colony pod in the first three or four turns? - at l;east your Voice of Planet hinted at it
(22:11:37) ChsThry: I wasn't around for several turns early in the game, so I don't remember what happened.
(22:12:24) Illuminatus_recording_device: IIRC colony pod was lost in begining due to highly unexpected MW appearance
(22:12:34) ChsThry: In any case, a population unit is more valuable than a crawler. I'm sure you suffered your own losses.
(22:12:43) Googlie: I know that for the first twenty years or so I ran a thread in our forum where I tried to predict when the next base would nbe founded for all 3 of the others - but the Gaians were the most difficult 'cos of that dropped hint
(22:13:45) Googlie: We've had some beneficial podpops, but have lost a rover when we popped a multiple worm event
(22:14:59) Googlie: But to go back to our differences of opinion .... we have been equally adamant with the Angels and Morgan re not giving out commlinks
(22:15:32) Googlie: 'cos we do see having them as being the direct result of strategic choices we made way back
(22:15:36) ChsThry: If that's your position, so be it, but be aware that we will communicate with each other despite your best efforts; it's only a matter of time.
(22:16:16) Googlie: we know - it's likely that elections will be called pretty soon anyway, so our "contacts" advantage wouyld disappear overnight
(22:17:04) Googlie: We're sure, for instance, that Morgan either has, or will have, foiul probes in the oceans rapidly, ever since they discovered flex
(22:18:09) ChsThry: Sounds like a reasonable strategy, but even the Morganites only have so many resources to go around.
(22:18:13) Googlie: Interestingly, though, the Hive just has 1 damaged foil, and the Uni have no naval vessels - I guess the landmass challenges are great enough for them to concentrate on going that way
(22:18:44) ChsThry: Is the foil a unity foil? I could open our turn, but that would be cumbersome.
(22:19:44) Googlie: No - I they built it. I'll have a look
(22:20:11) Illuminatus_recording_device: they've produced foil some time ago
(22:20:26) Illuminatus_recording_device: it was there the first time we looked at their datalinks
(22:21:30) Googlie left the room (quit: Quit: ).
(22:22:08) Kassiopeia: Let's just hope he'll know the way back.
(22:24:09) Googlie [~googlie@4.16.3.36] entered the room.
(22:24:23) Googlie: hmm - that was a bad idea
(22:24:33) Googlie: it's a 2-2-4 foil
(22:24:49) ChsThry: Ah, a military foil. I guess he's been popping pods.
(22:25:27) Googlie: either that or built it - in fact, I don't think you can pop a laser foil, just a Unity Gunship (and he had 2, but lost one)
(22:26:11) ChsThry: You can't pop a 2-2-4 foil. I mean, since it's damaged, I guess he's been popping pods with it.
(22:26:49) Googlie: Ah, yes. I see what you mean now.
(22:27:16) Googlie: I agree - our ships have also encountered the odd IoD and taken some damage (as well as morale upgrades!!)
(22:27:45) Googlie: It's a bit easier for us starting with Disciplined units, oc course
(22:28:02) ChsThry: Yep, and the AI has strange bonuses against native life.
(22:29:00) Illuminatus_recording_device: gotta go - see you in two days Chaos
(22:29:09) ChsThry: Have fun
(22:29:16) Illuminatus_recording_device left the room (quit: Quit: ).
(22:29:44) Googlie: Our rover that's been hemmed in with the Hive Scout, former, base and your mindworm has moved east last turn (to where your MW was - will it be able to reach the coast, or will your MW still be blocking this next turn?
(22:30:18) ChsThry: We are repositioning our mind worm, as it is of no further use at that location.
(22:31:09) Googlie: Aha - then maybe our rover will be able to get to the trannie steaming towards it
(22:31:32) ChsThry: You still use steam power? And you claim to have a tech lead? :P
(22:31:43) Kassiopeia: hey, as long as it works...
(22:31:51) Kassiopeia: it's not like we'll afford upgrades anytime soon
(22:31:54) Googlie: Pity Illuminatus left - I sense that the main bone of contention was between him and me
(22:32:20) ChsThry: He didn't plan to participate much in this discussion, only pay attention to it.
(22:32:54) Googlie: Ah - same as with us - I didn't plan on attending, but am doing so in Maniac's absence
(22:33:11) ChsThry: Sounds like Maniac fills a role more similar to mine.
(22:33:36) Googlie: (planned not to attend in case I got drawn into a shouting match with Illuminatus)
(22:34:19) ChsThry: If things are that bad between you, then you need to meet, not avoid each other.
(22:34:26) Googlie: Maniac is our theorist, I guess, while I'm more strategy development and execution
(22:34:49) Googlie: Well, Kass is the diplomat
(22:35:03) ChsThry: I am, as you should know, the primary turn player.
(22:35:19) ChsThry: This also leads me to be involved in sundry aspects of the turn besides actually playing it.
(22:36:22) Googlie: Yup - Maniac started off as ours, but after he started commuting to Gent, I took over the turnplaying. I do annoy him at times, I'm sure, as I miss the opportunity from time to time for an extra mineral or nut
(22:36:57) Googlie: I was happy enough just running the covert ops & gathering intel on all the others
(22:37:45) Googlie: So is there hope for better relations between us?
(22:38:04) Googlie: You arfe pretty deep with the Angels in leapfrogs
(22:38:25) ChsThry: Maybe. As we may have discussed before you arrived, vendetta would be futile. Full cooperation is unwarranted. The most desireable state is somewhere in between.
(22:39:50) Googlie: We can live with that. We do have a couple of techs that would accekerate your growth and development, and we've been negotiating with your partners re these
(22:40:31) Googlie: If the Gaian Union is happy enough with that style, it works for us as well
(22:40:55) ChsThry: Some of your proposals have been superficially balanced but in actuality substantially lopsided. This annoys me, and probably others.
(22:42:18) Googlie: I guess Ethical Calculus is a sticking point right now. We've offered 2 alternatives to your partners
(22:43:00) ChsThry: I don't know the details of your relations with the Angels, as I have enough to do already. Ethical Calculus itself is not the problem, however.
(22:43:22) Googlie: And I still think that your perception regarding the whole Doc Loyalty issue was way off base. Thje Command Nexus bever was a priority for us - more opportunistic, if you will
(22:43:57) ChsThry: Your proposal to be the faction to have strong units and defend the rest of us is not appealing.
(22:44:07) Googlie: Doc Loyalty only ever was important for us as a stepping stone to Intellectual Integrity
(22:44:53) Googlie: But it must be apparent that each faction has methods of winning this game that are essentially denied to it?
(22:45:16) Googlie: Sparta won't win economically or through transcendence
(22:45:31) Googlie: Morgan won't win militarily
(22:45:47) ChsThry: Most factions can't win economically. Sparta has no particular research handicap and has a normal chance of winning via transcendence.
(22:45:53) Googlie: Gaians and Angels likely can't win economically either
(22:46:38) Googlie: I don't think any faction that can't run wealth has a hope in hell of winning by transcendence
(22:47:15) ChsThry: Wealth, though good, is not the game. Knowledge is still a good choice.
(22:47:30) Googlie: we'll always be scrabbling for ec's .. and as a result can never rush a network node, or research hospital. etc etc
(22:47:49) ChsThry: You do have the option to run FM. We don't. Your economic options are broader than ours.
(22:48:14) Googlie: But FM kills our military.
(22:48:23) ChsThry: So only run FM some of the time.
(22:48:43) ChsThry: If you're successfully conquering all the time, you should be doing fine.
(22:49:34) Googlie: That's possible, but would be a logistical nightmare (recalling troops and nave, change to FM for soem ec booming, then switch back again when we need to send troops or navies abroad
(22:50:18) ChsThry: Wealth by itself does not contribute many ECs, either. The industry bonus is nice, but that's your faction's flaw - low industry.
(22:50:59) Googlie: It's actually better to monopolize the offshore podpopping as the odds of popping 100 or 200 ec's is higher with a gunship than on land with a scout or rover
(22:51:23) ChsThry: Well, then you're making up for your EC deficiency. I don't pity you at all for your drawbacks.
(22:52:04) Googlie: Yeah - industry is the killer - we need a couple of boreholes at every base, but that prolly needs us to run green for the Planet bonus, but that kuills industry even more
(22:52:21) ChsThry: The game wouldn't be fun without these tradeoffs.
(22:53:13) Googlie: LOL - I agree. And the managing around them is half the fun (especially in sibgle player where social choices have far greater repercussions
(22:53:57) ChsThry: In a 2-player game, your gripe may be legitimate, but with 4 players, the fact that some factions are better than others will not significantly influence the outcome, thanks to diplomacy.
(22:55:17) Googlie: Hmm - partially. With co-op victory turned off, every diplomatic offer and counter-offer becomes suspect
(22:56:11) ChsThry: Of course, but small boons such as single technologies and sums of ECs have decaying effects over time, usually.
(22:56:35) ChsThry: Assuming an actual exchange, rather than a gift.
(22:56:45) Googlie: I think it actually is detracting a little in this ACDG (buit in the last, the early victory pact between the Hive and the Drones meant that the outcome was decided almost from 2125 onwards, so I understand the desire not to have co-op this time round
(22:57:36) ChsThry: For future ACDGs, it might make sense to analyze exactly what victory means. If, in theory, we agreed to pact for the rest of the game, and share any victory the other might achieve, what rules could stop us?
(22:58:38) Googlie: That's true -
(23:02:10) Googlie: Is there anything else we need to cover? - we're obviously agreeing to disagree on whethern our tarde offers were fair or unduly biaised
(23:02:23) Googlie: trade offers, that should be
(23:02:46) ChsThry: I'm not sure. This meeting has been productive, but trade offers are best considered over time, in the embassy and our forums.
(23:05:23) Googlie: I'll prolly let Kass (or Maniac) handle Gaian negotiations. I seem to have a penchant for putting my foot in it when I try to get involved
(23:07:08) Kassiopeia: Maniac at least for the end of the month if there is something to be negotiated - still 12 000 words left on my novel
(23:07:26) Kassiopeia: although I will heavily rewrite it come December. But it won't be as tight scheduled.
(23:07:34) Kassiopeia: *tightly
(23:08:02) ChsThry: In any case, should Morgan become relatively more powerful, we will have more impetus to negotiate. If he tops out, we'll have less.
(23:08:56) Googlie: well, of course, there really is a Morgan "wing" within our Junta, that believes that closer co-operation with Morgan is in Sparta's best interests
(23:09:05) ChsThry: That's fine.
(23:09:24) Googlie: it's not just roleplaying, although RP is a by product of it
(23:09:27) ChsThry: I'm not worried about the possibility because of the restriction on coop victory.
(23:11:23) Googlie: unles, as you say, their is an agreement to jointly win (say a joint planetary government, with an economic Czar and a military Czar) - obviously can't be accommodated in-game, but then democracy games are a bastard child anyway
(23:11:41) Kassiopeia: isuch a development would be interesting.
(23:11:49) ChsThry: Yes, I brought that up, but I'm still not worried about seeing it realized.
(23:12:21) Kassiopeia: it might result in the mods selecting an arbitrary victor (based on victory score or somesuch), which would result in a split between those who think only faction A won and those who think both factions B and A won
(23:12:22) ChsThry: Suppose you try that, and it fails. You lose. Suppose you try it, and it works. Something interesting happens.
(23:12:45) Googlie: but we're not there yet anyway - and there couild be 4 winners - these 2 above and a Information Czar and an Ecology Czar
(23:13:00) ChsThry: And if you try some sort of voting or random victory scheme, and Morgan is much more powerful than you, then you are in trouble.
(23:13:00) Kassiopeia: hehe.
(23:14:14) Googlie: One aspect of a non-co-op win is that it prolly, by default, makes the AI more powerful
(23:14:20) ChsThry: From a game theory point of view, I believe you would decrease your chance of winning by cooperating too strongly with Morgan, whereas you might increase your chance of winning by negotiating with other factions, if done properly.
(23:14:58) ChsThry: On the other hand, the point of the game is to enjoy it, not directly to win.
(23:15:10) Googlie: in that an incentive to gang up on it is gone - spoils-sharing is much more difficult ti agree on when today's pactmates are going to be tomorrow's enemies
(23:17:00) Googlie: I agree. If Morgan gets to Fusion power (or better), Tachyon shield defenses for his bases and neutronium armor, we can't win
(23:17:25) ChsThry: Well, he will get there sooner or later. He'll have a hard time getting stronger than all three of us combined.
(23:19:35) Googlie: That's true.
(23:21:12) Googlie: Anyway - time to go, I guess, before we starft rehashing old arguments
(23:21:21) ChsThry: Cya.
(23:21:32) Googlie: bfn
(23:21:42) Kassiopeia: I have nothing to add, so we can probably declare this meeting concluded
(23:21:43) Googlie: Thanks Kass, for setting it up
(23:21:50) Kassiopeia: No problem
(23:22:07) Googlie left the room.
If the Spartans wont share the actual commlink with us, then let us use forms of covert communication. Certainly a NAP would make big news in the local Spartan rag. Any covert agency worth a damn would have to notice this. So while we can not directly communicate to the Morganites, we can still send broad-based messages via our actions (dipolmatic or otherwise).
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