Turn 2157

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu
I have renamed F22 to Apache and F28 to Mirage III. When I designed the Mirage III (<6>-1-12 interceptor) it asks me if I would like to upgrade all F15 to F22 for no cost, and I said yes. So now we don't have the design for F15 any more, and cannot rename it. Wonder why it would let me upgrade a noodle design to chopper design. I had about 4 F15s being build and they are all choppers now. I guess that's ok though. We would have one interceptor.

I would like us to have 4 to 6 needlejet penetrators.

They have a range of 12 versus 8.

With 4 to 6 of them we can use them to be an aerial blockade on top of ground or naval units to make those units immune from attack.

With 4 to 6 of them we can keep a regular watch on the seas off our coasts. The CyCon, with Maritine Control, can move their transports very quickly each turn. Our Needlejet pentrators can move further.

We could have 4 needlejets (two each turn patrolling out 12 spaces into the seas, wait until the next turn to return to base, then return to base then launch while the other two out to sea, and so on). If Cycon Ships are spotted they can be hit before they reach our shores.



Mead

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu
I have renamed F22 to Apache and F28 to Mirage III. When I designed the Mirage III (<6>-1-12 interceptor) it asks me if I would like to upgrade all F15 to F22 for no cost, and I said yes. So now we don't have the design for F15 any more, and cannot rename it. Wonder why it would let me upgrade a noodle design to chopper design. I had about 4 F15s being build and they are all choppers now. I guess that's ok though. We would have one interceptor.

The renaming is fine. It is less the confusing with the way you have it now.

You can use the workshop to make the needlejet penetator again.

Right now, I would prefer us to have needlejet penetrators instead of interceprtors, please see my prior post. (We will need the penetrators a lot sooner than interceptors)


I strongly recommend changing that interceptor being made in Rokkossovkgrad to a penetatator.


Other than that I see no problems with the turn you propose.

We still have about 24 hours for others to offer their thoughts. Unless someone else sees some thing wrong I suggest you post it at about 45 hours after we received the turn.


Mead

[Mead]

Re: Preliminary Observations of Peace, Drones, and Uni

Originally posted by Mead

***

Drones

They are building seven 6-1-10 missile choppers and will have them ready for use next turn. The also have one drop plasma built now. I think they will take Longreach next turn.

I would prefer if they took its northern neighbor and left us Longreach. Can we talk to them about that?

***

Do we want to talk to them about it?

With only one drop unit (on an infantry chassis) it looks like the Drones will only be able to take one base this next turn and another the following. Once we get our forces deployed we should be able to take a lot more cities very quickly.

It would be nice to work with them to more quickly take the Uni holdings from the AOE.


Mead

[Snowflake]

Ok I have never disclosed the attacking plan yet. The plan is to finish PUT off in two turns with the combined force from us and Drones. The first turn we take 3 bases, the second we take the rest.

For penetrators I'll see if I could still change a couple choppers back to penetrators. Currently we already have one penetrator that we can use to patrol the coast line. If I can't change them (because of the rush ecs) I will build another two or three the next turn in the east coast. They will not be used for invading PUT but will be used to patrol the east coastle line. I hope I can change some though, because I don't know if we want to keep a larger than necessary military for a long time if we are not going to invade CCs right after the PUT war. I will also rename the penetrators to a bomber name (are penetrators bombers?)

I want to keep that interceptor because it may turn out to be useful in case the PUT gets a couple air units in the air. What do you think?

[Snowflake]

Mead, what is the benefit of penetrator vs choppers? I think they all have a range of 12. And I know choppers can do multiple attacks. Are penetrators better to use as a patrol force?

[Snowflake]

I just checked the turn. Unfortunetaly we would not be able to change the choppers to penetrators. I will not post the save to the public forum today. If you feel strongly that we should change that interceptor to penetrators we could still do that.

I do realize now that interceptors has less range (9 vs 12). Also choppers can be attacked while penetrators cannot while at air.

[Snowflake]

We have built a sensor array in the lake with orange ball area for a future base site. Should we let the peace settle there?

[Snowflake]

Here's the new end turn save.

I have changed two libarains to technicians to get us a little more money. We have 68ecs now, will get 66 ecs next turn and will get a little less than 100 ecs I think from the stockpile bug. I'm sending PEACE 50 ecs preaccepted. I feel that we should try to help them a little more even if we are also pressed for money ourselves. We will need to upgrade that 1-1-12 copter next turn (90ecs I think) but I don't believe we would need to rush a lot of units so we should do fine.

I will try to check back in tomorrow afternoon (15 hours from now). The only decision we still need to make is wether we should change the interceptor to penetrator. If you guys feel that we should please change this and press end turn and post it.

Other things need to do is:
1. Decide where to let the peace build their base and communicate this to them.
2. Talk to Drones about letting us take longreach.
3. Talk to Drones about idea of letting both teams into both forums. (Less urgent)
4. Prepare for motion for planet council?
5. Need design for energy park at Mount Doom.

I would appreciate all of your helps on these tasks.

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu
Mead, what is the benefit of penetrator vs choppers? I think they all have a range of 12. And I know choppers can do multiple attacks. Are penetrators better to use as a patrol force?

Choppers v. Penetrators

Choppers
Can do multible attack (the best thing about them)

Can fly 12 spaces per turn, but must land in a base or will incur damage. Plus while on the ground they are subject to attack and probe capture.


Needlejet Penetrators
Can only do one attack per every two turns (turn one fly out and attack, turn two return to base; the worst thing about them)

Can recon far and wide. The Penetrator flys out 12 spaces and if it comes across another faction's unit it finds it. Then at the end of that turn it waits there, in the air. Another faction cannot move through the square it occupies "the aerial blockage". Plus while in the air there, if another faction moves by the Penetrator, that other unit is discovered. The next turn the Penetrator returns to base (perhaps by a different route) and recons that area again.

With Penetrators we can safely patrol out 12 spaces from our coasts.

With choppers we can only patrol out 6 spaces from our coasts.

I understand that CyCon has naval units that can at least move 6 spaces per turn.

My suggestion for 2157:
Continue to make the choppers that are under construction. Change the Interceptor in Rokkossvkgrad to a Penetrator (according to my simulation here, you should be able to make the change and have it finished and ready to use in 2158 without any addtional ECs). Next turn make a couple more Penetrators ready for use in 2159.

In 2158 start air patrols off our coasts.


Mead

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu
Here's the new end turn save.

I have changed two libarains to technicians to get us a little more money. We have 68ecs now, will get 66 ecs next turn and will get a little less than 100 ecs I think from the stockpile bug. I'm sending PEACE 50 ecs preaccepted. I feel that we should try to help them a little more even if we are also pressed for money ourselves. We will need to upgrade that 1-1-12 copter next turn (90ecs I think) but I don't believe we would need to rush a lot of units so we should do fine.

I will try to check back in tomorrow afternoon (15 hours from now). The only decision we still need to make is wether we should change the interceptor to penetrator. If you guys feel that we should please change this and press end turn and post it.

Other things need to do is:
1. Decide where to let the peace build their base and communicate this to them.
2. Talk to Drones about letting us take longreach.
3. Talk to Drones about idea of letting both teams into both forums. (Less urgent)
4. Prepare for motion for planet council?
5. Need design for energy park at Mount Doom.

I would appreciate all of your helps on these tasks.

Important.
There is something we need to make sure of.


I recall from playing SP something like that you could not establish a base in a Pact members territory without breaking the Pact first. I think the reason is because establishing a base in a Pact member's territory is consider to be a hostile act.

If this is the case then Peace and us should break Pact just before they enter our terriotory to allow them to establish a base.

We should not break the Pact after they enter our territory because that should transport them back to their nearest base!


What does everyone else think?


Mead

[Micha]

Since when can you place a base on foreign territory??? You´d have to find an unclaimed spot first, that´s our problem.

[Snowflake]

Oh gosh. I'm so glad that you guys are here. See that's why I said I'm bad at wars and other things. I remember now that it will be a problem if they want to set up a base at our land. I need a detailed plan about how and when we should do what.

I'm going to change the interceptor to penetrator and press end turn and post it.

[Mead]

Originally posted by Micha
Since when can you place a base on foreign territory??? You´d have to find an unclaimed spot first, that´s our problem.

They can establish a base on our southern coastline, even though it is in our territory.

They can only do this if they are not in a Pact with us.


I just ran a simulation on an old Trans SMAX single player game save I had to test this. This is what I found:

I was playing Hive, Pactmate was Cult.

While in Pact I tried to establish a base in Cultist territory and the following message came up.

"Chairman, our Pact of Brotherhood with Prohet Cha Dawn of the Planet Cult Precludes us from building bases in Cultist territory."

So, I clicked on the Comm menu and right click broke the Pact. The following message came up.

"Our Pact of Brotherhood with the Planet Cult has ended. All Cultist units have been removed from our territory. 5 units have been removed from cultist territitory and returned to our nearest bases."

I reloaded the test game, broke the Pact and then moved a colony pod into Cultist territory and, while in treaty but not in Pact, I tried to establish a base. I got the following message with two options.

"Chairman, our treaty with Prophet Dawn of the Planet Cult precludes us from building bases in Cultist territory.

NEVER MIND

BREAK TREATY

OK"

I then chose to break the treaty and my base was established.

The Cults then went into Vendetta against me.



From this test I conclude the following if we are going to allow Peace to establish a base on our territory:

1. Peace and us must break Pact before they enter our territory otherwise all of their units that are within our territory will automatically be returned to their nearest base once we break pact.

2. Once we break Pact their units and our units will not be able to occupy the same squares (or move through us) until we restablish Pact.

3. They must build their base before we reestablish Pact.

4. Once they build their base in our territory it is very likely that the game will automatically change the Treaty between us to Vendetta and we will have to restablish the Pact manually.

5. We need to be careful not to have our units in a position that would block their movement, because once we are out of Pact they cannot move through our units or occupy the same square.

6. Because I am not sure what would happen if both Peace and Hive units occupiped the same square, outside of both the Hive and Peace territory, when Pact was broken I think we should avoid it.

6a. We should also be careful not to try to move our units into the same square as their's while in treaty. Attempting to do so will result in attacking and destroying their units.

7. When we escort the Peace units in let's have our units behing them, providing a rear guard action.

8. Let's get them landed, established, and protected as soon as possible.

Mead

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu
Oh gosh. I'm so glad that you guys are here. See that's why I said I'm bad at wars and other things. I remember now that it will be a problem if they want to set up a base at our land. I need a detailed plan about how and when we should do what.

I'm going to change the interceptor to penetrator and press end turn and post it.

Thanks.

Once its made let's think about moving it down south and landing it in a southern base flying it over the ocean as much as possible.

Mead

[Micha]

Thanks for clarifying. Must be a new feature with SMAX, for I have never heard of it when playing plain SMAC. But then, I´m not a PBEMer