Kody says:
the real problem would be if the drones get along with the cycon
Kody says:
or would the cycon get along with the drones
Voltaire says:
I know, the CyCon perceived the Drones as the biggest threat following the University
Kody says:
personally I think the pirates are pretty high up there too
Kody says:
they'll probably control most of the inter-continential interaction.
Kody says:
also another thing I'm wondering
Kody says:
remember how buster said the pirates and cycon were neglecting the industrial techs earlier
Kody says:
well it makes you wonder which techs they were pursuing
Kody says:
from what I can see, either they've been going for air power, restriction lifting, or iniative
Kody says:
so now they've leeched those IA off the university
Kody says:
it means the pirates are probably a fair bit ahead in the tech race.
Voltaire says:
How big of a threat can the pirates be?
Kody says:
if they get well established?
Kody says:
I'm speaking now from a theorectical standpoint
Kody says:
as I've never mucked around with the pirates before.
Kody says:
Basically the pirates will get first pick of unoccupied continents.
Kody says:
so it means they'll get more land.
Voltaire says:
true
Kody says:
Also it means during the early years they control when the planetary council gets summoned.
Kody says:
Their bases will be difficult to attack until much later in the tech tree.
Kody says:
They can steal our ships too.
Kody says:
So I would guess unless we get air power significantly before them.
Kody says:
our best bet would be to raise the sea out from under their bases.
Kody says:
In the mean time they would be harassing our shores like crazy.
Kody says:
the problem is even though they have land bases
Kody says:
getting to their land bases will be difficult
Kody says:
also in late game I hear those sea bases get insane amounts of energy and food.
Voltaire says:
Well we must prevent them from forming bases near our lands
Kody says:
while still having decent minerals unlike other factions
Voltaire says:
that is why i proposed earlier in one of our discussions, or it may have been with vev, i forget
Voltaire says:
that when we meet the other factions
Voltaire says:
we define the territorial waters of a nation
Voltaire says:
such as 3 squares from the land
Voltaire says:
the pirates will not like this
Voltaire says:
but the landfaction will
Voltaire says:
since it will pervent the pirates from getting near their lands
Voltaire says:
they can
Kody says:
unfortunately the pirates will determine when the first plantary council will meet.
Voltaire says:
except they will face reprocusions
Voltaire says:
hmm true
Kody says:
from my view point
Kody says:
pirates are the most dangerous faction in the mid game
Kody says:
university will be the most dangerous in the late game
Voltaire says:
That is why I propose we deal with the University now, since we cannot effectivly take on the pirates at the moment and hope to win
Kody says:
however I doubt university will be allowed to grow that long unchecked
Kody says:
however the pirates can't be curbed early
Kody says:
so in my opinion the pirates will be the most dangerous.
Kody says:
if buster wasn't pacted with us. I would say the drones would be the most dangerous.
Kody says:
Since as far as I've seen buster has never lost a game yet.
Voltaire says:
That is something we must take into account late game
Voltaire says:
If we subdue the university the threat from them is gone, and we get their research working for us
Voltaire says:
hopefuly the CyCon can be convinced to join our efforts against the pirates
Voltaire says:
we will keep them happy on the drone issue by stating that we are simply buying time
Voltaire says:
and isolating the drones from other potential allies, such as the pirates
Voltaire says:
therefore we go after the pirates first
Voltaire says:
the drones can be taken care of easely
Kody says:
do you think we will part ways with the drones?
Voltaire says:
a few planet busters here and there and they're gone in one turn
Voltaire says:
if need be
Voltaire says:
eventualy
Voltaire says:
i don't doubt it for a moment
Voltaire says:
as you said the drones are indeed dangerous
Kody says:
you put too much faith in planet busters
Kody says:
vev and I were looking at planet buster defences
Voltaire says:
Yes I'm well aware, if we're going to use planet busters it has to be early
Voltaire says:
and then we ourselves risk retaliation
Kody says:
if the drones get fletch systems, or ODP up then we stand little chance.
Voltaire says:
if we're going to use planet busters, we need the university research power in order to get us both the PB tech as well as the defense tech
Voltaire says:
ah but drone research will not be on par with ours if we have the university onside, or even the cycon
Voltaire says:
there are downsides to this plan
Voltaire says:
it's just an option
Voltaire says:
to consider
Kody says:
the drones will have fairly good tech
Kody says:
in fact I've been reading
Kody says:
apparently drone's in midgame have tech which is on par with morgan and dedire and maybe even cycon
Kody says:
quite simply because they can build crawlers very cheaply
Voltaire says:
hmm that does become problematic
Voltaire says:
but we need some way to deal with the drones, afterall we are in this game for the win
Kody says:
and can terraform those energy parks
Kody says:
I doubt I could beat buster if put against him
Kody says:
not unless there's at least one or more factions also assisting
Voltaire says:
Uni on our side possibly as submissives, and CyCon possibly since they view the Drones as a great threat
Voltaire says:
we may want to pursue such a scenareo
Kody says:
you know you get 25 points per SP
Kody says:
in turn 2137 we'll probably be higher than the data angels
Kody says:
I think people may decide we're the greater threat.
Voltaire says:
points aren't everything
Voltaire says:
and i think that the other players realise that
Voltaire says:
and with our attack on the Uni we may well be perceived as the greater threat
Voltaire says:
so be it
Voltaire says:
i've gotten myself out of worse situations before
Voltaire says:
you've heard of the game Diplomacy?
Kody says:
Personally I would perfer to be true with one faction.
Voltaire says:
I agree
Voltaire says:
but that trust must be our of necessity
Voltaire says:
IMO the CyCon are the best candidates for that
Voltaire says:
since we both view the Drones as a great threat
Voltaire says:
and our alliance would last because we need one another
Kody says:
I've felt a subtle shift of stance towards us, from the cycon.
Voltaire says:
I will need to speak to them, when we meet...
Kody says:
they seem more indifferent towards us in the public forums
Voltaire says:
Well you must take into account the reduced activity in the public forum
Voltaire says:
that may well be the cause
Voltaire says:
we will not know until we speak to them
Kody says:
possibly
Voltaire says:
and also remember
Voltaire says:
alliances are not built on emotions, they may well hate us
Voltaire says:
but if the alliance is rational then they will go along with it
Voltaire says:
what we must ensure is that they always view the alliance with us as favourable to them, and that breaking it would be more costly than keeping it
Kody says:
would they like us to win?
Kody says:
perviously it was the weak hive
Kody says:
maybe they saw us as amaeturs
Voltaire says:
That would have been a mistake on their part, if they indeed did think as such then they are at a loss, never assume your enemy to be weak...
Kody says:
I think someone else in our forum mentioned they didn't want the drones to ecliplise us in the pact.
Voltaire says:
If we are going to have an alliance with them, we will be the senior partner...
Kody says:
the cycon may be the same.
Voltaire says:
Since we will have the Uni by us (hopefuly), thus the research and military might in one.
Voltaire says:
We must offer things to the CyCon to keep them happy.
Voltaire says:
If need be we will give them conquored lands, etc.
Kody says:
I still feel you are being overly optimistic
Voltaire says:
lol
Voltaire says:
Forgive me, I find that statement amusing, I'm anything but an optimist.
Voltaire says:
Though I know where you're coming from.
Kody says:
conquoring the university
Kody says:
you talk as if we already have troops on the way
Voltaire says:
I know, I know, I'm getting ahead of myself, but I've planned for our future diplomatic relations with other factions on that assumption, as well as if we fail.
Kody says:
that's good
Voltaire says:
The dynamics change considerably if we do not take out the university.
Kody says:
I still have hopes for continued good drone relations.
Voltaire says:
An alliance with the CyCon becomes less likely.
Voltaire says:
Since if we pact with the CyCon, the Pirates may seek refuge in the University
Voltaire says:
As do I..
Voltaire says:
We do not need them as enemies.
Voltaire says:
Let me put the University invasion this way...
Kody says:
I personally think the cycon and pirates may decide to join forces permanently if we kill off the university.
Voltaire says:
We have to attempt it, since not doing it is far more dangerous in the long run than doing it.
Kody says:
People will usually try and balance power when caught unexpected
Voltaire says:
How about this, since I have taken all these possibilities into considearion, let me publish a paper on all the possible outcomes of our actions, as well as why IMO attacking the University has the best results
Voltaire says:
This is similar to your administration of the game
Kody says:
I agree with attacking university
Voltaire says:
it is complicated, but when you know the reasons behind it the pieces fall into place
Kody says:
just I don't think the end results are quite as optimal
Kody says:
I think if we are successful, the other two may precieve us as a threat.
Kody says:
so overall our power has not changed
Voltaire says:
its a possibility
Kody says:
however we have removed the long turn risk
Voltaire says:
but you're expecting the CyCon and Pirates to act as rational agents
Voltaire says:
that is not a gurantee
Kody says:
rather I see the university attack as a means of keeping ourselves on par with the power of the other factions.
Kody says:
not as a method of giving ourselves an decisive advantage
Voltaire says:
you're right its not
Voltaire says:
the only way if becomes an advantage is if we exploit it properly
Voltaire says:
idealy
Kody says:
idealy
Voltaire says:
i would rather that we meet the CyCon before we attack
Voltaire says:
then we can get them in on the attack
Voltaire says:
thus they will feel we are acting together
Voltaire says:
and not only out of our interests
Kody says:
okay
Kody says:
we will see how everything pans out
Voltaire says:
if we keep the university as a puppet, we must ensure that the cycon get a part of the rewards
Voltaire says:
otherwise they will see our plans for what they are
Voltaire says:
lol
Voltaire says:
sadly
Voltaire says:
when it comes to politics
Voltaire says:
the only way to see if you're right
Voltaire says:
is to try it out
Kody says:
I know
Kody says:
which is why I usually stick with loyalty
Kody says:
rather than poltitics
Voltaire says:
Theoreticaly speaking loyalty and honesty are the best policies, from a game theory perspective
Kody says:
theoretically
Kody says:
actually politics are more powerful in some cases
Kody says:
but the gamble is much bigger
Voltaire says:
except the problem lays in the fact that someone, if not us, will betray another
Voltaire says:
true
Kody says:
this is a dipolmancy game, so I'm not going to argue too much against playing all the other factions off each other.
Kody says:
that strategy does mean a joint victory becomes very unlikely.
Voltaire says:
if we can guarantee a permipact with someone a join victory would be better since it carries less risk
Voltaire says:
except thus far we have not guaranteed such a pact
Kody says:
*nod*
Kody says:
I'll ask buster again after we've done our SP thingy
Voltaire says:
alright
the real problem would be if the drones get along with the cycon
Kody says:
or would the cycon get along with the drones
Voltaire says:
I know, the CyCon perceived the Drones as the biggest threat following the University
Kody says:
personally I think the pirates are pretty high up there too
Kody says:
they'll probably control most of the inter-continential interaction.
Kody says:
also another thing I'm wondering
Kody says:
remember how buster said the pirates and cycon were neglecting the industrial techs earlier
Kody says:
well it makes you wonder which techs they were pursuing
Kody says:
from what I can see, either they've been going for air power, restriction lifting, or iniative
Kody says:
so now they've leeched those IA off the university
Kody says:
it means the pirates are probably a fair bit ahead in the tech race.
Voltaire says:
How big of a threat can the pirates be?
Kody says:
if they get well established?
Kody says:
I'm speaking now from a theorectical standpoint
Kody says:
as I've never mucked around with the pirates before.
Kody says:
Basically the pirates will get first pick of unoccupied continents.
Kody says:
so it means they'll get more land.
Voltaire says:
true
Kody says:
Also it means during the early years they control when the planetary council gets summoned.
Kody says:
Their bases will be difficult to attack until much later in the tech tree.
Kody says:
They can steal our ships too.
Kody says:
So I would guess unless we get air power significantly before them.
Kody says:
our best bet would be to raise the sea out from under their bases.
Kody says:
In the mean time they would be harassing our shores like crazy.
Kody says:
the problem is even though they have land bases
Kody says:
getting to their land bases will be difficult
Kody says:
also in late game I hear those sea bases get insane amounts of energy and food.
Voltaire says:
Well we must prevent them from forming bases near our lands
Kody says:
while still having decent minerals unlike other factions
Voltaire says:
that is why i proposed earlier in one of our discussions, or it may have been with vev, i forget
Voltaire says:
that when we meet the other factions
Voltaire says:
we define the territorial waters of a nation
Voltaire says:
such as 3 squares from the land
Voltaire says:
the pirates will not like this
Voltaire says:
but the landfaction will
Voltaire says:
since it will pervent the pirates from getting near their lands
Voltaire says:
they can
Kody says:
unfortunately the pirates will determine when the first plantary council will meet.
Voltaire says:
except they will face reprocusions
Voltaire says:
hmm true
Kody says:
from my view point
Kody says:
pirates are the most dangerous faction in the mid game
Kody says:
university will be the most dangerous in the late game
Voltaire says:
That is why I propose we deal with the University now, since we cannot effectivly take on the pirates at the moment and hope to win
Kody says:
however I doubt university will be allowed to grow that long unchecked
Kody says:
however the pirates can't be curbed early
Kody says:
so in my opinion the pirates will be the most dangerous.
Kody says:
if buster wasn't pacted with us. I would say the drones would be the most dangerous.
Kody says:
Since as far as I've seen buster has never lost a game yet.
Voltaire says:
That is something we must take into account late game
Voltaire says:
If we subdue the university the threat from them is gone, and we get their research working for us
Voltaire says:
hopefuly the CyCon can be convinced to join our efforts against the pirates
Voltaire says:
we will keep them happy on the drone issue by stating that we are simply buying time
Voltaire says:
and isolating the drones from other potential allies, such as the pirates
Voltaire says:
therefore we go after the pirates first
Voltaire says:
the drones can be taken care of easely
Kody says:
do you think we will part ways with the drones?
Voltaire says:
a few planet busters here and there and they're gone in one turn
Voltaire says:
if need be
Voltaire says:
eventualy
Voltaire says:
i don't doubt it for a moment
Voltaire says:
as you said the drones are indeed dangerous
Kody says:
you put too much faith in planet busters
Kody says:
vev and I were looking at planet buster defences
Voltaire says:
Yes I'm well aware, if we're going to use planet busters it has to be early
Voltaire says:
and then we ourselves risk retaliation
Kody says:
if the drones get fletch systems, or ODP up then we stand little chance.
Voltaire says:
if we're going to use planet busters, we need the university research power in order to get us both the PB tech as well as the defense tech
Voltaire says:
ah but drone research will not be on par with ours if we have the university onside, or even the cycon
Voltaire says:
there are downsides to this plan
Voltaire says:
it's just an option
Voltaire says:
to consider
Kody says:
the drones will have fairly good tech
Kody says:
in fact I've been reading
Kody says:
apparently drone's in midgame have tech which is on par with morgan and dedire and maybe even cycon
Kody says:
quite simply because they can build crawlers very cheaply
Voltaire says:
hmm that does become problematic
Voltaire says:
but we need some way to deal with the drones, afterall we are in this game for the win
Kody says:
and can terraform those energy parks
Kody says:
I doubt I could beat buster if put against him
Kody says:
not unless there's at least one or more factions also assisting
Voltaire says:
Uni on our side possibly as submissives, and CyCon possibly since they view the Drones as a great threat
Voltaire says:
we may want to pursue such a scenareo
Kody says:
you know you get 25 points per SP
Kody says:
in turn 2137 we'll probably be higher than the data angels
Kody says:
I think people may decide we're the greater threat.
Voltaire says:
points aren't everything
Voltaire says:
and i think that the other players realise that
Voltaire says:
and with our attack on the Uni we may well be perceived as the greater threat
Voltaire says:
so be it
Voltaire says:
i've gotten myself out of worse situations before
Voltaire says:
you've heard of the game Diplomacy?
Kody says:
Personally I would perfer to be true with one faction.
Voltaire says:
I agree
Voltaire says:
but that trust must be our of necessity
Voltaire says:
IMO the CyCon are the best candidates for that
Voltaire says:
since we both view the Drones as a great threat
Voltaire says:
and our alliance would last because we need one another
Kody says:
I've felt a subtle shift of stance towards us, from the cycon.
Voltaire says:
I will need to speak to them, when we meet...
Kody says:
they seem more indifferent towards us in the public forums
Voltaire says:
Well you must take into account the reduced activity in the public forum
Voltaire says:
that may well be the cause
Voltaire says:
we will not know until we speak to them
Kody says:
possibly
Voltaire says:
and also remember
Voltaire says:
alliances are not built on emotions, they may well hate us
Voltaire says:
but if the alliance is rational then they will go along with it
Voltaire says:
what we must ensure is that they always view the alliance with us as favourable to them, and that breaking it would be more costly than keeping it
Kody says:
would they like us to win?
Kody says:
perviously it was the weak hive
Kody says:
maybe they saw us as amaeturs
Voltaire says:
That would have been a mistake on their part, if they indeed did think as such then they are at a loss, never assume your enemy to be weak...
Kody says:
I think someone else in our forum mentioned they didn't want the drones to ecliplise us in the pact.
Voltaire says:
If we are going to have an alliance with them, we will be the senior partner...
Kody says:
the cycon may be the same.
Voltaire says:
Since we will have the Uni by us (hopefuly), thus the research and military might in one.
Voltaire says:
We must offer things to the CyCon to keep them happy.
Voltaire says:
If need be we will give them conquored lands, etc.
Kody says:
I still feel you are being overly optimistic
Voltaire says:
lol
Voltaire says:
Forgive me, I find that statement amusing, I'm anything but an optimist.
Voltaire says:
Though I know where you're coming from.
Kody says:
conquoring the university
Kody says:
you talk as if we already have troops on the way
Voltaire says:
I know, I know, I'm getting ahead of myself, but I've planned for our future diplomatic relations with other factions on that assumption, as well as if we fail.
Kody says:
that's good
Voltaire says:
The dynamics change considerably if we do not take out the university.
Kody says:
I still have hopes for continued good drone relations.
Voltaire says:
An alliance with the CyCon becomes less likely.
Voltaire says:
Since if we pact with the CyCon, the Pirates may seek refuge in the University
Voltaire says:
As do I..
Voltaire says:
We do not need them as enemies.
Voltaire says:
Let me put the University invasion this way...
Kody says:
I personally think the cycon and pirates may decide to join forces permanently if we kill off the university.
Voltaire says:
We have to attempt it, since not doing it is far more dangerous in the long run than doing it.
Kody says:
People will usually try and balance power when caught unexpected
Voltaire says:
How about this, since I have taken all these possibilities into considearion, let me publish a paper on all the possible outcomes of our actions, as well as why IMO attacking the University has the best results
Voltaire says:
This is similar to your administration of the game
Kody says:
I agree with attacking university
Voltaire says:
it is complicated, but when you know the reasons behind it the pieces fall into place
Kody says:
just I don't think the end results are quite as optimal
Kody says:
I think if we are successful, the other two may precieve us as a threat.
Kody says:
so overall our power has not changed
Voltaire says:
its a possibility
Kody says:
however we have removed the long turn risk
Voltaire says:
but you're expecting the CyCon and Pirates to act as rational agents
Voltaire says:
that is not a gurantee
Kody says:
rather I see the university attack as a means of keeping ourselves on par with the power of the other factions.
Kody says:
not as a method of giving ourselves an decisive advantage
Voltaire says:
you're right its not
Voltaire says:
the only way if becomes an advantage is if we exploit it properly
Voltaire says:
idealy
Kody says:
idealy
Voltaire says:
i would rather that we meet the CyCon before we attack
Voltaire says:
then we can get them in on the attack
Voltaire says:
thus they will feel we are acting together
Voltaire says:
and not only out of our interests
Kody says:
okay
Kody says:
we will see how everything pans out
Voltaire says:
if we keep the university as a puppet, we must ensure that the cycon get a part of the rewards
Voltaire says:
otherwise they will see our plans for what they are
Voltaire says:
lol
Voltaire says:
sadly
Voltaire says:
when it comes to politics
Voltaire says:
the only way to see if you're right
Voltaire says:
is to try it out
Kody says:
I know
Kody says:
which is why I usually stick with loyalty
Kody says:
rather than poltitics
Voltaire says:
Theoreticaly speaking loyalty and honesty are the best policies, from a game theory perspective
Kody says:
theoretically
Kody says:
actually politics are more powerful in some cases
Kody says:
but the gamble is much bigger
Voltaire says:
except the problem lays in the fact that someone, if not us, will betray another
Voltaire says:
true
Kody says:
this is a dipolmancy game, so I'm not going to argue too much against playing all the other factions off each other.
Kody says:
that strategy does mean a joint victory becomes very unlikely.
Voltaire says:
if we can guarantee a permipact with someone a join victory would be better since it carries less risk
Voltaire says:
except thus far we have not guaranteed such a pact
Kody says:
*nod*
Kody says:
I'll ask buster again after we've done our SP thingy
Voltaire says:
alright
Comment