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**Chaunk** · July 23, 2003, 14:47

I'd like to nominate myself for second function if that's allowed.

On the other hand, is there actually enough activity here to warrent the positions above? It seems like there's hardly enough people here to fill those positions

**Maniac** · July 23, 2003, 15:57

Well, we already decreased the number of positions from seven to four. I doubt we can reduce it any further.

Your nomination for Second Function is appreciated btw!

**Chaunk** · July 23, 2003, 20:47

Well yes, but we currently also have one official per base....

Ah well

C

**Drogue** · July 25, 2003, 08:31

I'll put my name down for External Affairs Function. I'd like to carry on with the PEACE diplomacy. I should be more active than I had imagined, as I now have access to the Internet at work

**Maniac** · July 25, 2003, 08:47

First posted edited.

What is exactly you do for work Drogue ? If I do a vacation job (it is that right?), it's physical labour, and I don't get near a computer.

**Drogue** · July 25, 2003, 20:55

Well, I have good luck with vacation jobs, and there is very little physical work around here, so that we never an option.

My title is "Strategic Finance Advisor" to the local government authority (County Council), but basically I work as an accountant. I cannot do that important things, being that I have no formal accountancy qualifications, but at the moment I'm modelling the local (County-wide, about a £111m budget) police force's cashflow and forecasting the position until next March. I like it, I get to play with numbers, and it's such a power trip adding/subtracting a few hundred thousand here and there to get it too look realistic. I'm sure most would find it boring, but it facinated me how government finance works, and now I get to see it in action. Gives much more depth to my arguments about government inefficiency and burocracy in the UK, now I actually see the figures and get to see it in action.

Most summers I work for Nationwide, a UK bank/building society, in it's collections department, although a couple of summers ago I worked for Texas Instruments at the European HQ, matching their Italian, Dutch and UK accounts to the US HQ's figures. The council job is one of the first that involves real thought though, most of the others involved inputting data into a computer (well paying, a lot of it about, but utterly boring).

And yes, it's just vacation work for 8 weeks before I go to (hopefully

) Oxford.

**Maniac** · July 26, 2003, 08:21

Wow!

I doubt here a job student would ever be allowed to do that.

Gives much more depth to my arguments about government inefficiency and burocracy in the UK, now I actually see the figures and get to see it in action.

What in general is so abnormally inefficient about it?

Couldn't that inefficiency happen in private corporations? Just asking: I don't really understand why according to some people I discussed with in the past (accidentally (?) all economics students

) government services are per definition supposed to be less efficient than private ones. Business decisions being made for unsound political instead of sound economical reasons is of course an element, but besides that?

The council job is one of the first that involves real thought though, most of the others involved inputting data into a computer (well paying, a lot of it about, but utterly boring).

I would prefer such a desk job, even if it is boring, any day over my previous jobs in a plastic plates, sausage and salad factory.

You should do such a job once! You'll hate it thoroughly, but afterwards when you have another boring desk job, you'll think "This is boring, but still not as bad as that sausage factory job." and put things in perspective.

Good for character building!

And yes, it's just vacation work for 8 weeks before I go to (hopefully ) Oxford.

Wow. Another difference. Here in Belgium if you work more than a month per year as a student still living at home, you lose your government student grant. Btw, you already spent one year at university, right? Are you just moving to another (more prestigious) one?

**Drogue** · July 26, 2003, 19:03

Originally posted by Maniac
What in general is so abnormally inefficient about it?

It's because it's centrally run. For instance, the government doesn't just set a budget for each school, it tells the school how much proportion to spend on each department. It's a blanket way of running it. All schools and hospitals (at the moment) are run by central government to some extent, and have limited powers of their own. I think they should give a target and a budget to a school/hospital and let them decide how best to spend the money themselves. There is also much red tape (to change a budget you need to record it on no less than 10 forms

). I reckon you could cut the budget for a school by about 1/4 and still get the same service if it was run like a private company, with power given to the school governors and teachers. Also there's the lack of competition, since we have catchment areas, ie. you don't choose your school, you go to one based on where you live. Public finance is run by committee, usually people who have little knowledge about how each individual sector actually works. This means projects get developed that are not needed, and ones that are don't get the funding. It's even the case that our police force has a debt to the council, which seems silly to me, as both have their budget paid by the home office. In other words, the home office owes itself money

I am still for it being centrally funded, but the Liberal Democrats have good ideas about giving more autonomy to each school/hospital and removing some of the burocracy. A lot of public sector money is wasted, much more than in private firms generally, as private firms go bankrupt if they are inefficient, whereas public sectors are given more money if they miss their targets, to try to bring them up to scratch.

Originally posted by Maniac
I would prefer such a desk job, even if it is boring, any day over my previous jobs in a plastic plates, sausage and salad factory.

You should do such a job once! You'll hate it thoroughly, but afterwards when you have another boring desk job, you'll think "This is boring, but still not as bad as that sausage factory job." and put things in perspective.

Good for character building!

I might have to try that

Originally posted by Maniac
Wow. Another difference. Here in Belgium if you work more than a month per year as a student still living at home, you lose your government student grant. Btw, you already spent one year at university, right? Are you just moving to another (more prestigious) one?

No, we have an extra year of high school than most places and go to university for 3 years. I finished high school a few weeks ago, and am awaiting the results of my A Levels (14th August) It'll be my first year of uni starting October. We don't lose grants from working, because we don't get grants as such. Uni is state funded, so we don't pay tuition fees, except for a nominal sum (£1100pa) to the government. It's very hard to afford uni without either parental help or a lot of our own work (or both, in my case), so most uni's offer summer work on campus, to help ease the burden. It's assumed that students work during the summer, but sadly, many have to work during term time as well.

**Maniac** · July 26, 2003, 20:32

I have to agree the British system seems quite screwed up... Here in Belgium there is a strong non-profit "public services" quartiary sector, but very few of the organizations taking care of this are owned by the government. That is historically grown because until the recent past there were three "pillars" that controlled almost all aspects of society: the catholic (conservative & centrist economist) pillar, the liberal (right-wing) pillar and the socialist (left-wing) pillar. Each had/have their own seperate organization to fulfull a public service: three big parties, two big labour unions (and a small liberal one - what do you expect from right-wing liberals?

), two big healthcare organizations ("mutualiteiten" - I don't know if there's a liberal one

), etcetera... The government pays these organizations money for certain public services depending on how many members they have. This keeps the system rather uncentralized as those organizations are important social partners you have to negotiate with. So for example it are the labour unions that give you your unemployment grant (werkloosheidsuitkering). It are the "mutualiteiten" that pay you back your medical costs, etc.

It's the same for schools. While in most countries the state won the school wars on who had the right to organize education, in Belgium it was the church => most schools (and hospitals) are catholic. There is education organized by the state directly (you could consider them socialist-liberal schools in a way), but only 20 to 25% of the students go there. All the other students go to the "free" catholic schools, despite them being less funded than the public schools.

Schools are given money depending on how many pupils they have. The number of pupils also determines how many teachers they can employ, how many other personnel etcetera... I guess this adds an element of competition to the system, as here pupils can choose freely to which school they go (I would find it horrible if I couldn't have chosen myself

), so schools have to keep being attractive to stay in existence. Of course they still have to follow many rules, but I get the impression after reading your post they still have much more autonomy that in Britain.

This means projects get developed that are not needed, and ones that are don't get the funding.

That reminds me of what happened constantly in the Soviet Union.

Anyway, I think Belgium is quite a role model concerning the public sector.

We are kind of a proof public services almost solely funded by the government aren't necessarily inefficient. We have the best of two worlds: our public services aren't provided by private corporations whose only aim is profit

, but on the other side we still have an element of competition, as there are multiple similar organizations each vying for as many members as possible.

No, we have an extra year of high school than most places and go to university for 3 years.

Oh, that explains my confusion.

I never have understood the difference between "secondary schools", "colleges", "high schools" and "universities" in the Anglosaxon world, and when you go to where. Here it's much simpler: 6 to 12 primary, 12 to 18 secondary, and after that you can choose go to high school or university if you want. We don't first have to go to high school after secondary school before we can go to university.

Uni is state funded, so we don't pay tuition fees, except for a nominal sum (£1100pa) to the government.

£1100??

I only had to pay 88 euros to go to university (220 for those without a student grant). Or does that "pa" mean something I don't know about?

I have to say, the more I learn about other countries, the more I consider Belgium one of the best countries in the world to live in.

**Maniac** · July 26, 2003, 20:39

Metho Delta-5, don't you want to be Internal Affairs Function? Then you can organize base location polls (and include ICS-like voting options) and give me hints on how to terraform such bases. I have never tried out the tactic of placing bases very close near each other (because all those bases near each other don't seem esthetically pleasing to me

), so I don't know how I should handle such a situation.

**Drogue** · July 26, 2003, 21:05

Originally posted by Maniac
I have to agree the British system seems quite screwed up... Here in Belgium there is a strong non-profit "public services" quartiary sector, but very few of the organizations taking care of this are owned by the government. That is historically grown because until the recent past there were three "pillars" that controlled almost all aspects of society: the catholic (conservative & centrist economist) pillar, the liberal (right-wing) pillar and the socialist (left-wing) pillar. Each had/have their own seperate organization to fulfull a public service: three big parties, two big labour unions (and a small liberal one - what do you expect from right-wing liberals?

), two big healthcare organizations ("mutualiteiten" - I don't know if there's a liberal one

), etcetera... The government pays these organizations money for certain public services depending on how many members they have. This keeps the system rather uncentralized as those organizations are important social partners you have to negotiate with. So for example it are the labour unions that give you your unemployment grant (werkloosheidsuitkering). It are the "mutualiteiten" that pay you back your medical costs, etc.

So the people that control welfare pay, medical treatment and education are unelected?

There is a fine line between the economies of scale from being a large organisation (distribution costs, buying in bulk, expertise, facilities, etc.) and the diseconomies of scale (inefficiency and burocracy). I think if you were to have a central distribution centre, and have schools being independant, but being able to pay for and access that, you could get the the best of both. The use of facilities only available with larger organisations, and the efficiency of having many small organisations.

Originally posted by Maniac
Schools are given money depending on how many pupils they have.

Same here. However it does depend on other factors too.

Originally posted by Maniac
The number of pupils also determines how many teachers they can employ, how many other personnel etcetera... I guess this adds an element of competition to the system, as here pupils can choose freely to which school they go (I would find it horrible if I couldn't have chosen myself

), so schools have to keep being attractive to stay in existence.

I don't find it bad. You have choice, but it is hard to get into a school you do not live in the area for. To do so, you either need to go to a private school, or you need to be accepted by that school (ie. be very bright). You have a choice in towns and cities, as you will live in more than one catchment area, and so can choose which one. I didn't want to choose at 11 what school to go to, I would have had no idea. At 16 you can choose anywhere, if you wish to stay on.

Originally posted by Maniac
Anyway, I think Belgium is quite a role model concerning the public sector.

We have NGOs (not-for-profit organisations) too, but schools are centrally funded. I would hate a system of religious schools. We have a few here, but I abhore them and want them removed. I think indoctrination is not a good thing at all. However apart from that, Belgium does seem to have a good system.

Originally posted by Maniac
We are kind of a proof public services almost solely funded by the government aren't necessarily inefficient. We have the best of two worlds: our public services aren't provided by private corporations whose only aim is profit

, but on the other side we still have an element of competition, as there are multiple similar organizations each vying for as many members as possible.

Public owned competition. A great idea

I just wish they would use it here.

Originally posted by Maniac
Oh, that explains my confusion.

I never have understood the difference between "secondary schools", "colleges", "high schools" and "universities" in the Anglosaxon world, and when you go to where. Here it's much simpler: 6 to 12 primary, 12 to 18 secondary, and after that you can choose go to high school or university if you want. We don't first have to go to high school after secondary school before we can go to university.

Our system is pretty simple. 4-11 Primary, 11-16 Secondary, and then an optional 16-18 Secondary (although can be taken at college too).

Originally posted by Maniac
£1100??

I only had to pay 88 euros to go to university (220 for those without a student grant). Or does that "pa" mean something I don't know about?

Pa is Per Annum, or per year. £1100 is not a lot for university, considering some US unis charge almost $40,000pa.

**Maniac** · July 26, 2003, 21:44

Originally posted by Drogue
So the people that control welfare pay, medical treatment and education are unelected?

No no. We of course have ministers of education, healthcare and social affairs. And they, together with the parliament of course, decide how the education, unemployment and medical system works, who gets paid what etcetera. AFAIK the government gives the organizations money, and the organizations pass them on to who has right to it. But of course the labour unions and "mutualities" can't decide for themselves what they do with the money for unemployment grants and medical returns. They have to follow what the law says. Also for example it's the government who decides the general content of the courses we get. The schools can only decide a few hours on their own. They're just intermediary stations in a way, though with an independent structure and bureacracy, not centrally controlled by the government.

We have NGOs (not-for-profit organisations) too, but schools are centrally funded. I would hate a system of religious schools. We have a few here, but I abhore them and want them removed. I think indoctrination is not a good thing at all. However apart from that, Belgium does seem to have a good system.

Well they're called "Catholic" schools, but there's not much religious about it. Belgium's not the US after all!! We are quite secularized. The only "catholic" things in my school were:
a) The director was a priest as well. Really nice guy btw!

b) There were a few, perhaps four, eucharisties a year, at the start and end of the schoolyear, plus Easter and Xmas. During normal lesson hours, so no one was complaining.

c) Two hours per week of "Religion" (godsdienst) were mandatory.
But much talk about religion in those lessons there isn't done, at least not in the last three years of secondary. It's rather talking with each other about all sorts of subjects, a bit of psychology, etcetera. In the last year we saw the thoughts of people like Freud, Marx, Feuerbach, Nietzsche. We were given information about eg humanism, and the other world religions Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism etcetera. So there really isn't much indoctrination at all. I think the word "God" hardly fell more than ten times a year.

Besides, I would say "All education is doctrination." State schools probably educate a certain ideology as well, though perhaps unconscious.

£1100 is not a lot for university, considering some US unis charge almost $40,000pa.

I dislike the USA for a reason. That's one of them.

**Corellion** · July 27, 2003, 02:01

I'm back, and thankfully I appear to be in time to put my name in for Internal Affairs once again. I'll post a more detailed message after I've sorted through the hoards of posts.

**Corellion** · July 27, 2003, 02:35

For University costs, are those tuitions or blanket-costs (residency, etc.). Here in Canada, our tuitions are high, but still reasonable (compared to the US). For example, I'll be attending one of more expensive ones (which isn't saying much, as the spread isn't really that great), and my tuition is $4111 CDN ($3000 US, £1840, 2600 euros). There are also a number of scholarships and bursaries offered by the government and the universities themselves, but I have no idea of the average amount given out.

Unfortunately, tuitions have been creeping up over the years, and more than just inflation can account for

. Few political parties offer hope for a reversal of this trend (except for the NDP, but nobody listens to them

).

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