POLL -- cycon trade

[Flubber]

WEll it has come down to it with our cycon dealings . ..

They state they want doc flex NOW and if we won't trade it, they will get it from the AI.

They offer 2 choices

1. energy credits now, current offer is at 90 and they switch research to HEC to give to us in completion of the old ind auto deal

2. A tech for doc flex-- They will give us HEC when they finish it ( 6 years IIRC) if we give them doc flex NOW . . . they would still owe us a tech from the prior deal


THis leaves us with a few options

1. accept either of the above deals
2. tell them to go away and hope the AI won't sell them doc flex but risk them getting it for no advantage to us
3. just negotiate and negotiate to stall and see if they will push things to a head

[Makahlua]

As much as I'd love to tell them to jump in a lake, I'd rather us get the cred than Roze. And after this I don't trust them on anymore 'another tech later' deals (Unless, as in the case of HEC, it's deilverable within less than 10 turns)

edit 3 billion and five: nevermind leave it as it is

[Mark123jansen]

Lets just take the EC's and run, and then bury it on treasure islet, at least this way were sure that we are gaining something.

[Hercules]

I want to tell them to stuff it. I want to call their bluff. After all 90 ecs is a mere pod pop.
But we might need that future tech trade and the longer it is delayed the more valuable it gets (as our tech costs rise). Also it keeps the Borg from galloping ahead tech wise in the short term.

Secondly, we can change our minds. Say 3 years from now we could say to the Borg we'll wipe the tech slate clean for the second owed tech for 90ecs. So I feel we can have it both ways.

Third the Borgs now hold the turn. I would settle for option two if they will agree to defer a year. A guarantee we will send it in 2138. If they won't accept that tell them go ahead talk to the AI.

So voting for 2.

[johndmuller]

Voted for the 90 PofE and them researching/giving-to-us the HEC tech in 5+ years (but not a lot plus).

I am as annoyed with them as anyone here if not more so. but I am willing to put off our revenge for a little while at least - until we get our trade balance back to even with them anyway; I doubt that they would be honoring their debts should we go hostile with them.

If they are not bluffing, us getting the 90 is better than Roze or Miriam getting it. Even if they are bluffing, if we trade it to them, we still won't be recovered from the IndAuto deal until 15 or 20 years from now (assuming they don't do the same thing to us again, in which case it could be never); given the way our relations with them are going, there is a good chance that we will no longer be doing business with them by then (except for our more traditional piratatical business plan), so we will essentially get nothing for it then. Maybe clearing the decks of all the old deals will put all the bad feelings behind us and we can start fresh with them.

Hopefully, they will be unable to retrade it before we are done milking it, and will not claim that their next choice of techs did not include HEC (or NonLinear), but instead 'forced' them to research something we would be earnestly p!$$ed off for them to be studying (like Doc:Init, especially, but perhaps also including EthicalCalc or anything else we have or expect to get). Ambas'dor Flubber may wish to warn them (diplomatically, of course) of the consequences of such behavior and get appropriate assurances.

Maki, as to using the pact as leverage, I think we are the ones benefiting from it at the moment, rather than them, at least in terms of commerce, although I would have to check to be sure. Even so, it is probably a pittance, but it can have a psychological effect anyway. It is easy enough to unpact, but it is not always so easy to get rid of a treaty, which would have similar (but less) trade implications, although close as we are, they could presumably send over a warrior-scout to engage a former of ours if they wanted to un-treaty bad enough. Remember, our warships now have the capture possibility, so they could be donating whatever ships they send over, including their passengers.

WE NEED DEFENSIVE PROBES (Preferably morale-upgraded by military facs).

[Flubber]

IMportant change


The cycon are now offering if we go tech for tech, they will lend us 75 ec until they return HEC to us-- so its tech for cash and then cash for tech-- their outstanding obligation owing us a tech would remain

[Hercules]

What I take from this is they tried trade with the AI and it didn't work. Would that be a correct assumption.

[johndmuller]

Maybe they'd be willing to pay us a nominal fee in the meanwhile, like they let us keep 5 ec per turn until we get the HEC and of course, they couldn't retrade the Doc: Flex. After all, that still leaves us in the lurch for the IndAuto deal for the entire time it takes them to do the next research. BTW, where did we leave off the discussions with them about all the fees and interest in that complicated and controversal deal we floated with them before?

Herc, if they tried with the AI and couldn't do it, wouldn't they be all the more likely to buy it from us instead of proposing this odd arrangement? Perhaps they have something else in mind for the money.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Hercules
What I take from this is they tried trade with the AI and it didn't work. Would that be a correct assumption.

They claimed that they have confirmed they CAN get it from the AI . .. . The "loan" theysay was just a way to try to make the deal more fair in that we would get the use of 75 ec for the same amount of time they got the use of Doc flex

[Flubber]

Originally posted by johndmuller
Maybe they'd be willing to pay us a nominal fee in the meanwhile, like they let us keep 5 ec per turn until we get the HEC and of course, they couldn't retrade the Doc: Flex. After all, that still leaves us in the lurch for the IndAuto deal for the entire time it takes them to do the next research. BTW, where did we leave off the discussions with them about all the fees and interest in that complicated and controversal deal we floated with them before?

Herc, if they tried with the AI and couldn't do it, wouldn't they be all the more likely to buy it from us instead of proposing this odd arrangement? Perhaps they have something else in mind for the money.

They rejected all the complicated stuff with the simple argument that they can get the tech for a lot less from the AI

[Hercules]

[qoute]Maybe they'd be willing to pay us a nominal fee in the meanwhile, like they let us keep 5 ec per turn until we get the HEC and of course, they couldn't retrade the Doc: Flex. After all, that still leaves us in the lurch for the IndAuto deal for the entire time it takes them to do the next research.[/quote]

I like this proposal.

I am still in favour of the tech deal. From our point of view we hope to have a batch of techs from the other deals, so a delay in 1 won't hurt. If the Borg change settings to PM it might speed their research rate.?

[Atlantian]

I think that not only should we get the tech now, but if we don't get ind auto when they get it or they don't switch when the time comes, that we have forces ready to sweep in and crush them and take more then they bargained for.
((I am a carefully agressive player who, even when he is the weakest, will still sweep up out of no where and take a town when it would be to my advantage. But I will always check to see if I can hold those before doing so.))

I also beleive we need to start maping their borders and maybe even the locations of a few towns in preperation for such a bold menuver.

Also, we can take a tech if tech steal is on. ((I can't remember if it is or not.))

[Googlie]

[johndmuller]

Atlantian, FYI we got the IndAuto from them, it's just that we had to provide one more tech than they providedd us in the course of that deal (which was also rancorous) and they haven't yet paid that off. What further irritated us was that they started researching Doc:Flex, knowing of course that we already had it, instead of something we didn't have in repayment of the deficit. In fact, we imagine that they figured to force us to trade Doc:Flex to them by this gambit, on pain of putting off our repayment tech another 10 or 15 years.

[FlameFlash]

We still need to harass them for the owed tech... what was the final outcome (never had a chance to vote)