*** ALERT - ALERT *** Contact with the CyCon

[Flubber]

I oppose giving them either doc flex or our maps-- We should have the best maps around and the longer we are alone in the seas the better. Even if they agreed not to settle the sea ( a very small concession) I am not happy with the ideas that someone else could be building probefoils whilewe don't even have Plan:nets yet.


As for a next tech hope to get plan: nets ASAP with the idea that we add a probe foil to our mix

[Mark123jansen]

or we could either say to them that the only tech that will get them flex is plan:nets, and if they dont have it we could select that as our next tech (see poll) and still be the first with probefoils.

[johndmuller]

Here is another round of communications:

Outgoing to them:

Copy of our message to Prime Function Drogue:
Ahoy Prime Function:

Thank you for sending over the InfoNets technology; Goog knows we need some book lernin an maybe one a those NetNodes will do the trick (not quite as much fun though as a HoloTheater we here).

Well we got yer proposal ter trade yer Planetary Nets for Our'n Doc: Flexibility; thank you very much for the offer, but the Cap'n's Council has instructed me to resist trading away that tech for the time being - I'm sure ya unnerstand where they're a comin from on that one. It is a tempting offer though, and we might accept it some time down the road when we feel a bit more comfortable with each other. Part of the problem is that you would probably be wanting to trade it to others if you got the chance and yer probeships would be sailing around in the ocean scarin the fish and all; not to mention some of our more trigger happy Cap'ns.

Anyway, we were researching InfoNets, so after we accept your InfoNets later in the turn, it will then make us re-select techs at the beginning of next turn and we will get it in a few years IIRC 2118. Perhaps you would be interested in trading the Planetary Nets for our soon-to-be arriving next tech. I think that the choices we will get are going to be (aside from Planetary Nets), Progen Psych, Industrial Base, Social Psych. If you were to be interested in trading the Planetary Networks for one of those, we might be persuaded to select it so as to be able to make the trade. Feel free to suggest alternatives as well.

Whether or not we trade one of those to you for PlanetaryNets, we would be interested in avoiding any duplicate research with your scientists, so if any of those would be something that you already have or are currently researching, we would appreciate knowing of it so that we can coordinate our researches better.

We plan to finish our turn within 12 hours from now, and who knows how long the next round will take, but if we have to think about whatever you might come up with next, we would of course, need as much lead time as possible so as not to be slowing down the game too much.

This PM mechanism seems to be working OK, but email might be just as good if not better (no 4K size limit for one thing). If you prefer, my email is John's EMail.

Thanks (and I'll try to stay more in character in the future).

Cuspidore BrownBeard,
, his mark

Reply from them:

Greetings Cuspidore, this is the Prime Function of the CyCon.
We completely understand you wanting to keep Doc. Flex. If it would sway your mind, we would happily sign an agreement not to trade it with another faction, and would possibly be able to offer the very special technology of Applied Physics, meaning you can start building laser foils. However we understand that this is probably a futile attempt, and understand not wanting to trade.
With regards to the other techs, we would happily trade for Industrial Base or Social Psych, whenever you get them. We have been discussing our newly found friendship with your glorious faction, and so far, the consensus seems to be for as deep a friendship as you would be willing. At some point in the future, we believe it would be logical to sign a Pact between our factions. With your sea power, and our technology, it could be very beneficial to us both. While it may need some time, we would appreciate if you would consider it for the future.
I thank you for the technology, it will go to great use.
- Prime Function Drogue Beta-8

(Sorry if these lose their formatting or otherwise look bad, I just wanted to put it all in one place but didn't want to spend a lot of time on it. Hopefully whatever discussion we have on these interrelated subjects will not get too dispersed among the various threads.)

[johndmuller]

Our next outgoing message to the drones

Ahoy Prime Function Drogue Beta-8,

Thankee for your understanding and kind remarks; the Cap'n's Council can be very protective of Cap'n's prerogatives sometimes, but in the end, I am sure that you will find them reasonable enough and quite honorable, even in dealing with 'lubbers. That is to say, we will no doubt be able to offer Doc:Flexibility in trade to you at some point, but with all the separate Cap'ns to reassure, an'all the bottles to be sent back and forth (and they do have to be drunk first, you know, before a message can be put in), it would be a good many t'ousands a tides afore that fish would be on deck. Your offer to hold the tech confidential from others would ameliorate many a Cap'n's concerns, but there be those among'em still who'd find it not enough, even if the Applied Physics tech were included in addition to Planetary Nets (and we were a bit unsure if that was what you meant anyways, or whether you wuz trying to tempt us with Lasers alone). Nevertheless, I expect that you may be able to sign a for-booty contract with the Pirate Maritime Service to handle some of your shipping and/or terraforming requirements in the meanwhile, until we are able to license the Doc:Flex technology directly to you.

As I mentioned in the previous bottle, there is that upcoming new tech which will replace InfoNets as our current project; latest word is that the schedule has been moved up and it should arrive in 2117. To refresh your memory, the Fleet Weather Seers think that we will be offered Progen Psych, Industrial Base, Planetary Nets and Social Psych as the possible choices at the beginning of our next turn. If you were to agree to trade us Planetary Nets for one of the other 3, I believe that the Council would go along with whichever one of them you wanted, deliverable to you in 2118 (assuming the current schedule of 2117 holds for us). Forgive me if you already offered to do all these things in your message, but sometimes the seawater gets in the bottle and smudges up the writin' a bit, an' I didn't wanna assume we knew what yer sayin' if'n we wer'n't sure.

As to future an' deeper relations, well we're all fer the deep water as t'shoals ha taken many a fine ship below an' the mateys they can handle mos' anything the sea can throw at us if'n we have the wide open deep water all around. As you said, it could take a little time to work out arrangements, but we have also had scuttlebutt floating back and forth about the natural land/sea - brains/brawn things and so such talk appears to have fertile grounds. So let us know your thoughts on tech trading and meanwhile we shall look forward to fair weather and clear sailing for us both.

Cuspidore BrownBeard - , His mark

[FlameFlash]

Arrr.... these computer logic folk seem mighty friendly and happy to deal with us. Still glad they'll short circuit come touching the water for now though.

A good tech trade system with 'em would be good... maybe later them handling the thinkin' and us handlin' the weaponry.

((Cooperative victory is on, correct?))

((I'm liking how this is going though. It's too bad that private forums for the two factions together couldn't somehow be created to ease the communication a bit, but that smells of overcomplications.))

[Googlie]

Yes, co-op victory is activated

Why not ask the Cyborgs to create a website and apend a forums page to it (they're free with bravenet.com) with password membership - that way you could meet there and hash out strategy - in fact, they could apend a chat room for live discussions

(or I could make available on one of my sites as an alternative)

G.

[Flubber]

The cuspidore asked me to take up negotiations in the interest of time

I sent the following message


Our logic is simpler

WE will switch and have Plan nets in a few turns if you do not trade with us. Neither of us garners any additional benefit and we will have probe foils.

If you do agree to trade,we will forgo researching plan nets and instead garner another tech. We will benefit by getting that other tech and by providing it to you, we will share the benefit with you exactly equally.

If we trade we will have plan nets at exactly the same time as if we research it ourselves. ( I assume we would do the trade when we get that additional tech) The only difference from the no-trade scenario is that we will both have the same EXTRA tech. What can be fairer than that



----------------------------------------------------

Note while it is not true that we have absolutely determined to research plan nets ourselves if they won't trade, that is my personal position and the best bargaining position I could come up with. If we finishh our research by year X, it can be

no-trade -- us wiyh plan nets OR
trade -- us with plan nets and both with the bonus tech

[johndmuller]

In the interest of keeping nearly all our dialog with the Borg on this issue more or less coherently in one place, I'm copying Cap'n Flubber's post from the "success in negotiations" thread here and adding the chain of messages I had with Drogue that were partly overlapping in time with his last message possibly after communicating with Maniac and maybe not.

Flubber's Dialog with Maniac:

Success in the trade of soc psych for plan nets

I believe I have been successful in making a straight trade of soc psych for plan nets . . . when we get soc psych of course

SEE below for my messages with maniac

---------------------------------------------------------------------


Re: Re: Democracy game
Agreed

The only issue I would have is that I fear we may have to switch to plan nets now anyway as we would not want our plans to go awry if the majority somehow still votes against the trade anyway-- There are game mechanisms to deal with this though ( such as your "gifting" plan nets to us on the turn we will discover it and us gifting our new tech in return

Please confirm when the deal is sealed.

Temporary ambassador Flubber


quote:

Maniac wrote on 26-06-2003 12:57:
Hi Flubber,

Hmm... Good point indeed! It doesn't really make any difference at all then. Well in that case I would agree on the tech trade and give you PlaNets in three turns, or whenever it is that you will have researched SocPsych (or IndBase if SocPsych isn't available...). As I can't make a definite decision, a poll will of course have to be organized to confirm a PlaNets<->SocPsych tech trade, but since I previously voted against trading PlaNets to you, the majority will shift in favour of PlaNets trading when I change my vote. So I think I can say we have a deal! PlaNets for SocPsych?

Greetings,

Second Function Mani Alpha-3

quote:



Our logic is simpler

WE will switch and have Plan nets in a few turns if you do not trade with us. Neither of us garners any additional benefit and we will have probe foils.

If you do agree to trade,we will forgo researching plan nets and instead garner another tech. We will benefit by getting that other tech and by providing it to you, we will share the benefit with you exactly equally.

If we trade we will have plan nets at exactly the same time as if we research it ourselves. ( I assume we would do the trade when we get that additional tech) The only difference from the no-trade scenario is that we will both have the same EXTRA tech. What can be fairer than that?

My Correspondence with Drogue:

(to Cuspidore BB from PF Drogue)
Tech Trading
It is troubling about the email, but our servers were infected with anasty Hive virus recently, so may have been lost there somehow (OOC: Ive had comp troubles lately /OOC).

Our preference would be for Social Psych, but Industrial Base would also be of great use to us. I completely agree about the level thing, but others in my faction do not, and I must adhere to the majority. Currently, my faction would not trade Planetary Networks for anything but Doc. Flex, which we are aware is not possible. Therefore we offer Biogenetics for whichever tech you decide to choose. I might be able to get Applied Physics instead, but that has not yet been approved. If you really want Planetary Networks, I am sure we would be ameanable to Ecs. Make us an offer, and I will put it to the rest of the faction. I would like to agree to any straight swap, regardless of levels, but I am afraid that my compatriots feel differently.

Basically, as it stands, we are willing to trade Biogenetics for whichever tech you choose to research next, preferably Social Psych. That has been authorised. If you were to provide Social Psych and a few Ecs I might be able to get you Planetary Networks, or a straight swap for Applied Physics, but these would have to be approved by the rest of the faction. I have posted on our forum about this. If you were to research either Social Psych or Industrial Base, we can trade for something, but I think we feel about Planetary Networks the same way you understandably feel about Doctrine Flex.

I hope this is acceptable, in some form or another. I am currently trying to pledge the case for trading Planetary Networks to you, but it is not working so far.

Yours'
The Prime Function
______________________________
Ahoy Prime Function:
In your time away from the commlinks and feeling a bit busy myself, I deputized Cap'n Flubber (he styled himself Temporary Ambassador Flubber) to find someone to negotiate with - he managed to contact Secondary Function Maniac, to whom I had previously copied my message to you in a (futile at the time) attempt to find someone else to discuss this with. In any event, it appears that Temporary Ambassador Cap'n Flubber was able to make a convincing enough case for the trade of Social Psych for Planetary Nets to change Secondary Function Maniac's position on the subject (is SF Maniac fond of XenoWeed?) and in his opinion likely changing the majority on your end to allow for that trade. Hopefully, that is all true and will happen OK. Some reassurances on your part that the deal is indeed happening would be greatly appreciated so that any overly suspicious Cap'ns will be convinced that the deal is for real (as we will have to commit to the Social Psych right away).
Yours,
the Cuspidore

PS: once this is settled, we can get down to the business of dealing with other matters, such as joint research planning and pacting, etc. - BB
====================
(to Cuspidore BB from PF Drogue)
RE: RE: Tech Trading
I am sorry, due to 'Poly being very slow, my last 2 attempts to PM you have failed

We can certainly commit to trading it for something, but I am afraid we can give no definate assurances that we will trade Planetary Networks, as much of the faction is undecided. Giving probe foils to a faction that is not willing to trade Doc. Flex. has worried some people.

However both myself and Maniac would, although we are a little uneased. Would you be willing to sign an embargo to say that you won't trade it on to other factions, and that you will not use them against us (as forbidden by our treaty)? Possible a few Ec would help to convince them, as it is a level 2 for a level 1 tech, and it would help others to see that your intentions are good. While I am sure they are, others are naturally sceptical.

As it stands, being a democratic faction, I cannot give you a definate, 100% assurance, since many have not agreed yet. However with Maniac and myself on your side, I think we stand a very good chance of getting them to accept. They voted almost unanimously that we should attempt to become Pact Brothers and increase our relations. I am sorry I can give you no more, but as I am sure you understand, the nature of our faction is that we need a majority to be sure of anything. I believe tech trading is beneficial to us both, and so I will push strongly, and I think we can convince them. I am sorry for this, but it is the best I can do at the moment.

Yours in peace and goodwill
The Prime Function

[johndmuller]

This just in from Drogue:

Planetary Networks
We have agreed to offer it. Final details to be arranged, as you did mention about a few Ec in return, but the main thing is that we trade for our mutual gain. We will trade Planetary Networks for Social Psych.

Do you have MSN, or maybe can you use the 'Poly chat room? This could make things easier for times like these, when 'Poly's server is annoying.

Yours
The Prime Function

[Googlie]

Originally posted by FlameFlash

I'm liking how this is going though. It's too bad that private forums for the two factions together couldn't somehow be created to ease the communication a bit, but that smells of overcomplications.

Hmmmmm ..............

Originally posted by Drogue, via johndmuller

Do you have MSN, or maybe can you use the 'Poly chat room? This could make things easier for times like these, when 'Poly's server is annoying

Something like a Cycon-Peace Secure Commlink maybe? (I've also posted this link in the CyCon private forum)

G.

[Flubber]

I oppose giving the cycon extra energy credits-- we have to stop thinking that this is a trade of planetary nets for soc psych and that therefore we owe them something extra.

We can research planet nets ourselves so the effect of the deal is that both sides get soc psych that they would otherwise not have. The net effect of trading is that we both get soc psych so there is no logic in giving them additional money

[Flubber]

I sent the following message to Drogue

---------------------------------------------------------------------

trade with the pirates
I was doing some negotiation on behalf of the pirates and don't understand the logic of us adding energy credits to the deal.

Quite simply

If you do not trade we get plan nets and neither of us benefits

If you do trade, we get plan nets at exactly the same time and the net difference is that BOTH factions get soc psych -- so the net effect is that we both benefit exactly equally

I want good relations between us but I think that they should start on an equal and fair basis. Since the net effect of our dealings will be to give us BOTH social psych at the same time, this deal is already fair
.

Our population will have to discuss this but I will say that good relations in my PERSONAL opinion should be based on balanced and fair trade. I will therefore oppose anything other than a one for one tech deal in this case

[FlameFlash]

going to agree there.

And thanks for the new site, Googlie.

[johndmuller]

Cap'n Flubber, I support your position viz-a-viz the matter of incorporating Pieces of Eight, although not to the bitter end.

Acting on your prior notion to Carry a Big Stick, but Walk Softly, I started the turn already and selected Social Psych as the tech which we will be receiving next year. So, we are in fact bluffing here, as you proposed. Bearing that in mind, I trust that you will not go so far as to burn our Planetary Network bridges with them over a nominal amount of PoE's, which we can well afford at present. IMhO, anything up to 25 Pieces is perfectly OK (naturally, the fewer the better); over that and I would be thinking that they are going too far, especially if it were substantially above that. Should they become particularly unreasonable, a demonstration "un-terraforming" project could be arranged.

Feel free to handle these negotiations - if you want me to post sometbing to that effect on that site that Googlie created (Thanks Googs!), just say the word. Thanks for taking on that job, you're doing great. BTW, I got the impression that Maniac is more fun to deal with than Drogue, who seems more political and more into keeping an eye out for little advantages here and there (dare I say sounds like a lawyer ?)

I'll be posting the turn shortly; by way of a teaser, we got good stuff from pods - a free Sea Colony Pod (built on the house from scratch) and some more of those lovely Pieces of Eight that Cap'n Hook wants to bury on Treasure Islet.