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**FlameFlash** · May 31, 2003, 13:24

/me shudders...

while this is all well and good (the editing of posts) since the easiest way for me to check up and stay up to date at 'poly is by getting the e-mail updates, it screws me up royally.

**Hercules** · June 1, 2003, 20:05

As I said before, one I don't like the orange colour, 'cause its IMO difficult to read.

Two, if there a debate over build units and order. It needs discussed somewhere and resolved.

In the previous ACDG, orders would have been posted for the next turn following a debate maybe on general build strategy. As we expand the orders become for a region from a pirate member on the basis of general strategy and tactics and to include in our case our pirate clans special unit requirements and preferences.

As you know, up to a certain point, the build orders can changed without loss, so for example the loss of a unit or the rush of a unit may effect our views on other build queues.

I ask you to examine, listing final build orders by MYxxxx. Discussion can take place in other threads under the respective headings of terraforming units, SPs, facilities and military.

I don't think we need a Pirate Cuspidore specifically for SE settings but we will probably need a Cuspidore for Privateering ( probing), warfare and l3wting operations.

**Hercules** · June 1, 2003, 20:22

Ironically, I tried to edit my last post but it was taking too long after several attempts.

The last point I was going to make was that in theory only the Forum moderator can edit posts and post headings: mostly I suppose to edit out bad language and illegal content.

So using the 'editing post' feature is not oneI recommend for general use. Both from a practical point of view but also a legal point of view.

In this sense say I authorise someone to our faction and all goes well for 100 turns then some dormant lurker decides to exercise his capability to change a posting in someone elses name. I don't want to think about it, so I advise do not go down this 'everyone can change everyone elses post' route.

I don't understand why the senior MODs have not tighened up on the private forum Mod's editing powers, including banning but also allowing adding attachments, provided they are deleted as we go along.

PS Strangely I was able to edit this for some typos almost immediately.

There be Pirate Ghosts about I tell ye.

**Googlie** · June 1, 2003, 21:49

Well, as CMN, I edited out an invitation one of the factions gave to Nivoxz N (the triple faction member) to spy on another faction.

Within the game context, in asking me to CMN the game, I reserve the right to delete - or alter - a post that is detrimental to the game's smooth functioning ( and I won't do it very often)

An example would be if I saw evidence of "playing ahead", with results being posted. These woiuld be immediately deleted (of course I would not be able to intervene in private e-mail exchanges or chat room discussions to which I wasn't invited - or aware of)

I assume no one has any problem with my exercising CMN duties in this regard?

G.

**Hercules** · June 1, 2003, 22:15

None at all. We are all re-assured by your presence and experience. Keep being vigilant.

**Flubber** · June 5, 2003, 13:59

I posted my build ideas in the 2102-2110 thread but basically it invloved a land former rushed at Tripoli ( to mine the rocky mineral special ASAP) , a land CP for Liar Liar and a sea CP for Margaretaville ( sp ?).

I don't see a large need for command centres yet-- any battles we fight will likely be at sea for now.

**foolish_icarus** · June 6, 2003, 00:26

I agree with flubber about the command centers--we don't need more than one just yet

**Hercules** · June 6, 2003, 07:04

The command centre builds were put in there for pod popping purposes. That is if the outcome from the pod completed the build at either base, then there would've been a high cost build completed. If no such bounty or indeed if it did happen, the build queue would return to normal.

**Flubber** · June 6, 2003, 12:57

Herc

I knew that the instabuild possibility was the reason for listing command centres. I just knew that we now have expensive units available now ( like seaformers). If we can get a few of those insta-built we will have great turn advantage and also be rolling in cash.

My only disappointment from the pods as been not much cloning. I would have really liked to have had several foils by now.

**Googlie** · June 6, 2003, 13:45

Originally posted by Flubber
My only disappointment from the pods as been not much cloning. I would have really liked to have had several foils by now.

yeah - I'm surprised too. I cut the Pirates' starting units by a gunsloop, 'cos in the playtest the first three pods I popped cloned the 2, so by 2105 or thereabouts there were six roaming around the oceans.

Even now, when I play forward ten turns or so (I do that after every gameturn post) I'm popping clones more often than any other result except credits.

But mayber I'm venturing further with the sloops - perhaps cloning doesn't happen as frequently when close to a base.

I'll scenario test that on the same set-up (not with this game or map, though) just to track the pecentages and report back.

G.

**johndmuller** · June 6, 2003, 16:35

Well we did get a free SeaFormer last turn via an 'instabuild' pod and we do have more pieces of eight than we can profitably spend or even drink up at one sitting, but frankly, after that big build up (and the scuttling of half of our independent warships at the beginning), the results of the reasonably large number of pod poppings have been rather insipid, to say the least - several sonars, a couple of kelp tiles, modest sized treasure chests, a resource special or two, . . . , but mostly rather dull stuff on the whole. Not that we need exciting stuff like earthquakes or a gateway to a land-locked inner sea. I've generally been cautious about leaving movement points in case of IoD's, except when unavoiidable, like when the pod is in seafungus, but that would give us an experience upgrade or two if it didn't kill us.

I'm not that surprised about the lack of cloning, I can't say that it seems a popular result in my experience, although with many of the possibilities precluded, it should be more common. I recently played the early turns of several SP games set up like this one (same cast, turn order, etc.) and I received maybe a total of 1 or 2 clonings in well over a hundred years of play altogether, As a matter of fact, I think I lost quite a few more units than I got cloned free, either by attacking and losing (I even had the Manifold for a lot of those) or by getting chased down after retreating and deep sized - the navy yards don't kick in until you get the tech, so your ships are as weak as any landlubber's.

A more puzzling (and might I say disturbing) difference between this game and the test SP games came in the tech cost department - In the SP games, the initial tech cost comes in at 15 pieces of eight, whereas in this game, it started out at 35 poe, MORE THAN TWICE AS MUCH. Our tech cost after our first completed research when up to 57!!! poe, again greatly above the SP numbers. In each case Docs: Mobility and Flexibility were the initial techs, so it wouldn't be that. I think that I may have heard that the tech cost formula includes a term/factor which tracks the highest tech level or number of techs of anyone in the game (or something like that), which could be kicking in if the AI's were primed with multiple extra techs - enough to seriously ramp up the cost for everyone. That is of course the possibly disturbing aspect - Is everyone's cost substantially higher than normal, or is it just us? I would appreciate some reassurances in this matter. If it is everyone, that's cool enough, although it might impact the Drones particularly hard (softly weeping) and perhaps the Hive a bit, and magnify the built in advantages of the built in tech advantages of the University and especially the Cyborgs.

Another strange difference in this game compared to the SP tests is the slate of techs offered as research choices. I would have expected the offerings to be the same, but they were noticably different. Now I may be one of the few people who think much about the sequence of tech offerings. but I am convinced that it is absolutely deterministic. And while I may not know all the nooks and crannies of the determination, I was not at all surprised to see that all the SP games followed the exact same sequences as far as I could tell given divergences in play, I was somewhat surprised to see that difference in the offerings by this game of ours. The main reason I played the SP's was to get an idea of what to expect in the way of tech offerings, assuming it would be consistent with the SP version, but that turned out to be incorrect. In the SP version, the first choice gives you all 7 of the techs for which the Pirates have the prerequsites (the entire first row except mobility, which we have); In the game at hand, the first choice is only among 6 techs, excluding Infonets. Given the same first choice (Cent Ecology) the next choice is between ProgenPsych, Infonets, IndustBase and SocialPsych in the SP games (excluding Biogenetics and InfoNets) in the SP games, but is between ProgenPsych, BioGenetics, Infonets and AppliedPhysics in the PBEM (excluding IndustBase and SocialPcych). I suspect that the usual underlying pattern is still at work, only the initial conditions were somehow different. Not having tried to compare SP and MP choices before, I don't know what to expect (except that I will try a test game with my current setup as an MP game instead, and see if the choices match the SP version or not (it would be my guess that they match the SP). It may be possible that the Creator set up our faction in a somewhat different way in the Scenario Editor than the normal game generator does - perhaps He started our faction our as another faction and then modified it to include the appropriate techs, ending up with a slightly different 'tech history' for the game mechanics to build on; or perhaps He 'discovered' one or both of the our techs instead of having them initialized. Perhaps it is just the natural result of the Scenario Editor; I don't know, but I am curious since I have this thing about the tech sequence. Again, my concern would be - is this somehow related to our unusually high tech costs and if so, are we uniquely affected?

Not that I am trying to make a big deal out of this, but I would like to know where we stand vis-a-vis the others in these areas and more importantly to me at least, exactly why are these things different?

**Googlie** · June 6, 2003, 18:25

Scenario created games are different re the techs.

For example, if you start the UoP with Info Nets, then Cent Ecology never appears as a free tech choice. But if you start with Cent Ecol, then Info Nets always appears as a freebie choice (and if you don't select it, then at least the game is tru and the Uni don't get their network nodes until the research Info Nets)

In one of the original OWO forums, Chris Pine, (one of the Firaxis programmers) explained it thus (but was dealing then with just smac - I have interpreted his comments in the context of smax):

Your tech costs are the same as the Angels. You start with 2 techs, a level 1 and a level 2 (as do the Angels). The CC starts with 2 level 1's, so would be joint third in the techrace (along with the Uni, who always start with two level 1 techs), they are followed by the Hive (1 level 2) and then the Believers and the Drones, each with one level 1.

Both the CC and the Uni have their 20% bonus (so run at 80% of the normal cost) so irrespective of the choices the Uni makes, the Pirates are always 1st equal in research to commence the game. (this holds true, BTW, with any combination of the 14 factions - the Pirates always start 1st or 1st equal in tech costs, as the Progs are dealt with differently)

What hapopens after techs start to be discovered is largely driven by the level of tech being discovered. Only the University has the option of researching a level 2 tech as its first tech, so the Pirates' lead in tech costs is maintained until the Uni has discovered at least 3 techs (2 start ones plus its third, if level 2) or 4 (if the third is a level 1, as 3 level 1's have the same value as one 2 and one 1). And by the time the Uni gets it's second researched tech the Pirates might have either discoverd their first, or popped a tech (but not in this game)

So it might actually be by the teen years before the pirates drop to second place and see their comparative research costs lowered

The rogue in this equation is the Angels. They start the same as you, but often are able to research faster due to better energy producing land tiles, and thus can push the Pirates to third place by the mid teens.

I'll open up the scenario file and post the starting tech costs in the general forum

G.

Well- here it is here to save you flipping over:

Turn 2 tech costs are:

Pirates: ..................... 38
Angels ....................... 38
Drones ....................... 31 (20% penalty has been appled)
Believers .................... 31 (20% penalty has been appled)
University .................. 19 (20% bonus appled)
Consciousness ........... 19 (20% bonus appled)
Hive ............................ 15

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