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Because you're evil. 
It must look strange indeed when you don't know what's said beforehand. It was just a general discussion about the DIA powers. Many felt the veto was too powerful, and there had to be a possibility to veto the veto. Some proposed that the AT and Commish combined should be able to override the DIA veto, while I argued against that. I said that if the DIA abused his powers, he could simply be impeached, and there was no need for further rules. Please read:
I don't know what was said between 23.18 and 23.20 though. I quit the chat then for a few minutes because I was fed up with their discussion, which already lasted for half an hour, while we hadn't even started playing the game yet.
It must look strange indeed when you don't know what's said beforehand. It was just a general discussion about the DIA powers. Many felt the veto was too powerful, and there had to be a possibility to veto the veto. Some proposed that the AT and Commish combined should be able to override the DIA veto, while I argued against that. I said that if the DIA abused his powers, he could simply be impeached, and there was no need for further rules. Please read:
[23:17] (AdamTG^DoS) I considered running for Governor of Centralis after Archaic stated he'd be interested in building Genejack Factories -- but I know I simply don't have the time.
[23:17] (Evangelion-Freak) Yeah. For that kind of cases, there should be some sort of a "citizen veto" option, where a group of people can veto a build queue...?
[23:17] (GT^Commish) Well, probably anyone who wanted to do that would be bananaed at the next election.
[23:17] (Evangelion-Freak) Yeah.
[23:17] (GT^Commish) And the DIa is allwoed to veto it.
[23:17] (Evangelion-Freak) Ah, good.
[23:18] (Evangelion-Freak) I haven't studied the constitution lately, so bear with me if I throw stuff already implemented.
[23:18] (GT^Commish) Anyway, Archaic said he was itnerested in us building them, not that he intended to build them.
[23:18] (Voltaire) Isn't in unconstitutional???
[23:18] (Evangelion-Freak) Yes... GJ factories is a good example of practicality vs. ideology.
[23:18] (GT^Commish) Especially when he brought the subject up and realized there was no way he would persuade anyone to agree.
Session Close: Sat Mar 01 23:18:43 2003
Session Start: Sat Mar 01 23:20:14 2003
Session Ident: #smacdg
[23:20] * Now talking in #smacdg
[23:20] * Topic is 'ACDG Turnchat Channel'
[23:20] * Set by TKG on Thu Jan 01 01:00:00
[23:20] (AdamTG^DoS) I'm wrong -- I checked the constitution, and it was included. The DIA has the right to veto any order of a governor.
[23:21] (Evangelion-Freak) I really think the vote should be allocated to several people. It's just too powerful to be in the hands of one person.
[23:21] (Evangelion-Freak) vote=veto
[23:21] (AdamTG^DoS) "That idea" meant the idea for the DIA to veto any build. Sorry for the ambiguity.
[23:21] (Voltaire) That [DIA veto power] could be a point of contention between parties.
[23:22] (AdamTG^DoS) 2/3 of the DIA/Commish/Alpha Talent?
[23:22] (Evangelion-Freak) Adam: yes, that sounds better
[23:22] (GT^Commish) That might be a good idea.
[23:22] (GT^Commish) Anyoen want to propose an amendment?
[23:22] (AdamTG^DoS) Or maybe requiring the DIA, but together with either the Commish or Alpha Talent?
[23:22] * Evangelion-Freak raises hand *
[23:22] (Evangelion-Freak) You turnchat here, I'll type it down
[23:23] (Maniac-AT) Against.
[23:23] (Evangelion-Freak) Hmm?
[23:23] (Evangelion-Freak) So you think the DIA should have the power to completely block any governor's build orders?
[23:23] (Maniac-AT) The point of directors is to concentrate power, so we don't need to council everyone for every decision, which could take hours/days.
[23:24] (Evangelion-Freak) Yes, but a veto is a very, very drastic measure.
[23:24] (Maniac-AT) What if the AT or Commish aren't available but a decision needs to be taken quickly?
[23:24] (AdamTG^DoS) Well, it is true that no DIA so far has misused the power.
[23:24] (Evangelion-Freak) Adam: yet.
[23:24] (Voltaire) The DIA, as it stands, is too powerful, veto power excluded. I think the ability to basically dictate faction spending alone is something that needs to be dealt with.
[23:24] (Maniac-AT) He has only a veto, he cannot tell the directors what to do.
[23:24] * AdamTG^DoS glosses over the rumors about TKG's secret Internal Affairs complexes.
[23:25] (Maniac-AT) directors -) governors
[23:25] (Evangelion-Freak) But he can dictate what they build by blocking orders he doesn't like.
[23:25] (Maniac-AT) (I think)
[23:26] (AdamTG^DoS) How's this: The Commissioner and Alpha Talent, acting together, can override a DIA veto. DIA still retains the right to veto, and still must okay expenditures.
[23:26] (Maniac-AT) Well then the governor can propose alternatives ad infinitum. The governors and DIA balance each other out. None can control the other.
[23:26] (Voltaire) No, the DIA can order governors to build what he wants, or technically he can order governors to place into the queues requests form other directories.
[23:26] (Evangelion-Freak) Maniac, yes, he can propose and propose, but the DIA can refrain from vetoing only the choice he wants.
[23:26] (Evangelion-Freak) Adam: That sounds pretty good
[23:27] (Evangelion-Freak) A veto of a veto, so to speak. All I'm looking for is a way to check the DIA's use of power.
[23:27] (Maniac-AT) But the governor can refuse to build the order the DIA wants, so it's a deadlock which can only be resolved by the court.
[23:27] (Evangelion-Freak) Court proceedings take time...
[23:27] (Maniac-AT) So do vetoes of vetoes.
[23:27] (AdamTG^DoS) Alternately, majority vote of the Council of Governors (governors + DIA) can override a veto.
[23:28] (Voltaire) Also the DIA can back up his requests by threatening to cut of funding to the governor.
[23:28] (Evangelion-Freak) But vetos of vetos aren't mandatory. Besides, in your scenario, we have to wait for the build queue to be voted for half a term.
[23:28] (Evangelion-Freak) voted=vetoed
[23:28] (Evangelion-Freak)
[23:29] (Maniac-AT) Volt: that would get the DIA banana'd next term. TEF: the threat of having to stop the game should be enough to come to a compromise.
[23:29] (Evangelion-Freak) In next term the damage is already done *shrug*
[23:29] (Maniac-AT) Anyway, propose what you want. I just think it will prove unnecessary.
[23:29] (Maniac-AT) Has this game started btw?
[23:30] (Maniac-AT) otherwise I'm back to playing Eu2.
[23:30] (GT^Commish) No.
[23:30] (GT^Commish) Starting now.
[23:30] (Evangelion-Freak) All we are looking for is a way to block the DIA if it's deemed necessary. There was also my proposal of a citizen action that would allow a large portion of the people to veto the DIA.
[23:30] (Evangelion-Freak) That way, we'd kinda "banana" him beforehand. A proactive impeachment sort of thing.
[23:31] (AdamTG^DoS) It's true enough that thje DIA's veto is only a negative. He can't force the Governors to do anything specific which they object to. The most that could happen is for no orders to be okayed, and either the Commissioner plays without orders or the game grinds to a halt.
[23:31] (Maniac-AT) Voilà .
[23:31] (AdamTG^DoS) Well, we do have impeachment for that.
[23:31] (Maniac-AT)
[23:31] (Evangelion-Freak) *shrug*
[23:31] (Evangelion-Freak) Of course all wrongdoings of officials will come back to them in elections, but by then the damage will be done.
[23:31] (Maniac-AT) Indeed: impeach the DIA!
[23:17] (Evangelion-Freak) Yeah. For that kind of cases, there should be some sort of a "citizen veto" option, where a group of people can veto a build queue...?
[23:17] (GT^Commish) Well, probably anyone who wanted to do that would be bananaed at the next election.
[23:17] (Evangelion-Freak) Yeah.
[23:17] (GT^Commish) And the DIa is allwoed to veto it.
[23:17] (Evangelion-Freak) Ah, good.
[23:18] (Evangelion-Freak) I haven't studied the constitution lately, so bear with me if I throw stuff already implemented.
[23:18] (GT^Commish) Anyway, Archaic said he was itnerested in us building them, not that he intended to build them.
[23:18] (Voltaire) Isn't in unconstitutional???
[23:18] (Evangelion-Freak) Yes... GJ factories is a good example of practicality vs. ideology.
[23:18] (GT^Commish) Especially when he brought the subject up and realized there was no way he would persuade anyone to agree.
Session Close: Sat Mar 01 23:18:43 2003
Session Start: Sat Mar 01 23:20:14 2003
Session Ident: #smacdg
[23:20] * Now talking in #smacdg
[23:20] * Topic is 'ACDG Turnchat Channel'
[23:20] * Set by TKG on Thu Jan 01 01:00:00
[23:20] (AdamTG^DoS) I'm wrong -- I checked the constitution, and it was included. The DIA has the right to veto any order of a governor.
[23:21] (Evangelion-Freak) I really think the vote should be allocated to several people. It's just too powerful to be in the hands of one person.
[23:21] (Evangelion-Freak) vote=veto
[23:21] (AdamTG^DoS) "That idea" meant the idea for the DIA to veto any build. Sorry for the ambiguity.
[23:21] (Voltaire) That [DIA veto power] could be a point of contention between parties.
[23:22] (AdamTG^DoS) 2/3 of the DIA/Commish/Alpha Talent?
[23:22] (Evangelion-Freak) Adam: yes, that sounds better
[23:22] (GT^Commish) That might be a good idea.
[23:22] (GT^Commish) Anyoen want to propose an amendment?
[23:22] (AdamTG^DoS) Or maybe requiring the DIA, but together with either the Commish or Alpha Talent?
[23:22] * Evangelion-Freak raises hand *
[23:22] (Evangelion-Freak) You turnchat here, I'll type it down
[23:23] (Maniac-AT) Against.
[23:23] (Evangelion-Freak) Hmm?
[23:23] (Evangelion-Freak) So you think the DIA should have the power to completely block any governor's build orders?
[23:23] (Maniac-AT) The point of directors is to concentrate power, so we don't need to council everyone for every decision, which could take hours/days.
[23:24] (Evangelion-Freak) Yes, but a veto is a very, very drastic measure.
[23:24] (Maniac-AT) What if the AT or Commish aren't available but a decision needs to be taken quickly?
[23:24] (AdamTG^DoS) Well, it is true that no DIA so far has misused the power.
[23:24] (Evangelion-Freak) Adam: yet.
[23:24] (Voltaire) The DIA, as it stands, is too powerful, veto power excluded. I think the ability to basically dictate faction spending alone is something that needs to be dealt with.
[23:24] (Maniac-AT) He has only a veto, he cannot tell the directors what to do.
[23:24] * AdamTG^DoS glosses over the rumors about TKG's secret Internal Affairs complexes.
[23:25] (Maniac-AT) directors -) governors
[23:25] (Evangelion-Freak) But he can dictate what they build by blocking orders he doesn't like.
[23:25] (Maniac-AT) (I think)
[23:26] (AdamTG^DoS) How's this: The Commissioner and Alpha Talent, acting together, can override a DIA veto. DIA still retains the right to veto, and still must okay expenditures.
[23:26] (Maniac-AT) Well then the governor can propose alternatives ad infinitum. The governors and DIA balance each other out. None can control the other.
[23:26] (Voltaire) No, the DIA can order governors to build what he wants, or technically he can order governors to place into the queues requests form other directories.
[23:26] (Evangelion-Freak) Maniac, yes, he can propose and propose, but the DIA can refrain from vetoing only the choice he wants.
[23:26] (Evangelion-Freak) Adam: That sounds pretty good
[23:27] (Evangelion-Freak) A veto of a veto, so to speak. All I'm looking for is a way to check the DIA's use of power.
[23:27] (Maniac-AT) But the governor can refuse to build the order the DIA wants, so it's a deadlock which can only be resolved by the court.
[23:27] (Evangelion-Freak) Court proceedings take time...
[23:27] (Maniac-AT) So do vetoes of vetoes.
[23:27] (AdamTG^DoS) Alternately, majority vote of the Council of Governors (governors + DIA) can override a veto.
[23:28] (Voltaire) Also the DIA can back up his requests by threatening to cut of funding to the governor.
[23:28] (Evangelion-Freak) But vetos of vetos aren't mandatory. Besides, in your scenario, we have to wait for the build queue to be voted for half a term.
[23:28] (Evangelion-Freak) voted=vetoed
[23:28] (Evangelion-Freak)
[23:29] (Maniac-AT) Volt: that would get the DIA banana'd next term. TEF: the threat of having to stop the game should be enough to come to a compromise.
[23:29] (Evangelion-Freak) In next term the damage is already done *shrug*
[23:29] (Maniac-AT) Anyway, propose what you want. I just think it will prove unnecessary.
[23:29] (Maniac-AT) Has this game started btw?
[23:30] (Maniac-AT) otherwise I'm back to playing Eu2.
[23:30] (GT^Commish) No.
[23:30] (GT^Commish) Starting now.
[23:30] (Evangelion-Freak) All we are looking for is a way to block the DIA if it's deemed necessary. There was also my proposal of a citizen action that would allow a large portion of the people to veto the DIA.
[23:30] (Evangelion-Freak) That way, we'd kinda "banana" him beforehand. A proactive impeachment sort of thing.
[23:31] (AdamTG^DoS) It's true enough that thje DIA's veto is only a negative. He can't force the Governors to do anything specific which they object to. The most that could happen is for no orders to be okayed, and either the Commissioner plays without orders or the game grinds to a halt.
[23:31] (Maniac-AT) Voilà .
[23:31] (AdamTG^DoS) Well, we do have impeachment for that.
[23:31] (Maniac-AT)
[23:31] (Evangelion-Freak) *shrug*
[23:31] (Evangelion-Freak) Of course all wrongdoings of officials will come back to them in elections, but by then the damage will be done.
[23:31] (Maniac-AT) Indeed: impeach the DIA!
I already thought Kassiopeia had some second motives with that proposal...
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