OFFICIAL : A switch to Green

[Kirov]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
I don't really think that 100% economy means a total social focus on making money, and 100% research a total focus on science - they're just govenrment spending priorities.

And you're right that automation does help solve the 'dirty work' problem, but somebody still has to maintain the robots. You can't really automate the whole process, because it becomes an endless loop.

1) It was bad example with Econ, but take labs in consideration. In society with 0% Labs no research is made (apart from Biology Labs), right? But there are plenty of talents and no drones. So such society can't generate any scientists - they would be idle drones there. Thus SE sliders have also social aspect, apart from budget spending. Of course you can make specialists... but they aren't talents then.

2) About that automation, yo're of course right. I wanted only to say there are no dickensian workers in our faction - poor, dumb and humiliated at every step. Instead, our workers have a full right to be talents.

[Cedayon]

I guess I should have done the talent/cit/drone numbers this time around after all... looks like FM'll still win though... *crosses fingers*

[Drogue]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Not to mention the fact that according to you (and you're going to be the one who puts it into practice), it'll get rid of the bureaucracy by turning it's duties over to Planet. Now remind me why, exactly, we should trust Planet to manage our economy for us, given that we could never hope to manage Planet's ecosystem for it?

No, but then, we don't manage our own economy at the moment. It is at the mercy of market forces. Green may, or may not mean government housing, depending on what we want. If it does, I'll wager they won't be cramped, falling apart, and generally unsafe, unlike the cheap housing that the poor and unemployed live in at the moment. Yes our economy suffers under Green, but remember the purpose of the economy is to serve our needs, not us to serve it. We should not be slaves to the economy, our only concern profit and wealth, we should remember that the economy is only their to benefit us. People are more important than economic growth and money. Since we have (mostly) done growing, we do not need the pop-boom of Planned. We should now become efficient, and use our resources wisely. Under FM the amount of wasted resources is great. We may produce more, but we do not need this. If we cut back slightly, we can use our resources efficiently, and not waste so much.

Sorry if there are any typo's, I broke a finger this afternoon, and my typings gone a bit off

[Maniac]

I broke a finger this afternoon

Auch!

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Maniac
Auch!

My thoughts exactly

Dammit, why do I try to impress girls playing rugby? Can't I find a safer sport!

[Cedayon]

Drogue: I hope your finger gets better, that sounds like no fun at all.

Originally posted by Drogue
Dammit, why do I try to impress girls playing rugby? Can't I find a safer sport!

Tried "conversation"?

[Kirov]

Originally posted by Drogue

Dammit, why do I try to impress girls playing rugby? Can't I find a safer sport!

Tell her you're playing SMAC DG. She's yours then, man.

[Hercules]

Tell her you're a green rugby playing Smac DG player. After each game you replace and smooth out the cut up turf. Scrums are simply human tractors.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Do we for some reason badly need research at the expense of ECs and GA bases? If not, then no to Green.

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Do we for some reason badly need research at the expense of ECs and GA bases? If not, then no to Green.

The numbers aren't on their side, no, it's an RP thing mostly. If we really wanted more lab points we could get more (while sacrificing less in terms of ECs and psych) under FM.

I'm surprised it's this close... I guess RP really does have sway here... that and the whole problem with military deployment... but we can fix that with a specialist base(s) supporting all our military (Egregion or whatever it's name is)

our psi combat will still suck... but we can own the worms if we have to in any event.

And ED... what ED?

[GeneralTacticus]

No, but then, we don't manage our own economy at the moment. It is at the mercy of market forces.

We, as a faction, control our own economy. the fact that it is decentralized doesn't mean that isn't true.

Green may, or may not mean government housing, depending on what we want. If it does, I'll wager they won't be cramped, falling apart, and generally unsafe, unlike the cheap housing that the poor and unemployed live in at the moment.

And why do you think this, hmmm? We'd have fa rmore poor and unemployed people, and far less resources to spend on them.

Yes our economy suffers under Green, but remember the purpose of the economy is to serve our needs, not us to serve it. We should not be slaves to the economy, our only concern profit and wealth, we should remember that the economy is only their to benefit us.

Which is precisely why we shoudl reject this proposal. FM benefits us - all of us - far more than this proposal would. We gain a marginal increase in labs output that is unlikely to make much difference, in return for a msive economic downturn and a vast increase in poverty.

People are more important than economic growth and money.

Of course they are, but economic growth is important to people. Without it, they are much worse off.

Since we have (mostly) done growing, we do not need the pop-boom of Planned.

Well, of course we don't.

We should now become efficient, and use our resources wisely. Under FM the amount of wasted resources is great.

As Archaic (quite rightly) said: What use is efficiency if the price is that we wind up with less than we did before? Is it better to produce 3 of something and waste nothing, or 5 of something and waste 1 of them, if nothing else changes?

We may produce more, but we do not need this.

Yes we do. High energy production is essential to the continuing development of our poorer bases, as well as being necessary to providing a high living standard for our citizens.

If we cut back slightly, we can use our resources efficiently, and not waste so much.

'Slightly'? The cutback would be enormous, to the extent that we would be producing far less than we would otherwise. Efficiency is pointless if the product you're being efficient with (energy) doesn't require the use of anything else to create, and if more would be produced with higher production and higher wastage than lower production and lower wastage.

[Voltaire]

When exactly did the left loose its majority???

I recall back in the good old days when we outnumbered the right enough as to prevent capitalism form being implemented in the first place, now we have to resort to desperate attempts to switch back to green. *sigh*

[Cedayon]

Well, there are some new people that are FMers (like me), and some of the former planned/greens voted FM this time (like Aaron, no?) for various reasons.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
We, as a faction, control our own economy. the fact that it is decentralized doesn't mean that isn't true.

You're right, decentralisation doesn't. Especially since Green is decentralised. However the fact that we are at FM means that our economy is at the mercy of market forces, not our control. We do not control our economy.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
And why do you think this, hmmm? We'd have fa rmore poor and unemployed people, and far less resources to spend on them.

In an FM economy, we have little provision for the poor and unemployed. There housing will be awful. If the Government provides good, clean housing to the unemployed. And there are generally fewer unemployed under Green or FM, since they can get Government employment if they need it. Because of a smaller rich/poor divide, I believe there will be fewer poor people. There will be less wealth, but the wealth will be more evenly distributed.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Which is precisely why we shoudl reject this proposal. FM benefits us - all of us - far more than this proposal would. We gain a marginal increase in labs output that is unlikely to make much difference, in return for a msive economic downturn and a vast increase in poverty.

Who is to say what the people value. You ay value wealth and economic growth, I may value a beautiful, clean environment. Some people will choose either. FM does not benefit all of us, it depends what you want. It looks like it benefits most however, by the results of the poll.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
As Archaic (quite rightly) said: What use is efficiency if the price is that we wind up with less than we did before? Is it better to produce 3 of something and waste nothing, or 5 of something and waste 1 of them, if nothing else changes?

The 3 without waste. Do you know how hard, and how many resources it takes to try to clean up waste. Yes we end up with less overall, but we get more research (much more important than Ec IMHO) and less waste.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Yes we do. High energy production is essential to the continuing development of our poorer bases, as well as being necessary to providing a high living standard for our citizens.

Well, most of our outlying bases will not be producing much under FM, because of the inefficiency. If we revert to Green, we can spread the wealth better over the nation. We need Green to help outlying colonies develop, not just Centralis.

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by Drogue
We need Green to help outlying colonies develop, not just Centralis.

That isn't quite fair, you know... all the regions (with the possible exception of Solaris) contribute significant amounts of energy to the faction. Our efficiency isn't what Green would make it, but it's still +2, which is pretty good, especially for the peacekeepers. (-1 base, +2 demo, +1 knowledge, right?)

Toss in the children's creches that are in place or being constructed almost everywhere, and efficiency is even less of a problem.