Command Nexus: Operation Fallout

[DeathByTheSword]

Kirov do you really think my loyal troops will allow that....i have several teams standing by if you or someone else vote against this when the time is there

[Drogue]

Wahey!!!! A civil war is brewing (and it isn't CCCP vs DLP )... Now this'll get interesting.

If Morgan declares war I have no problem, however I don't think he will, a least not for a while.

[Kirov]

Did you listen to that homicidal warmonger DBTS? Drogue, don't let the probe teams 'disappear' me!

[Drogue]

Do not fear Kirov, my probe teams are aware of all internal events, and shall enforce neutrality. There is to be no 'disappearing' today ... That is unless DBTS want's his little 'affairs' to come to public attention, and you really don't want that do you

*Drogue reads the new gossip intelliegence report that lands on his desk. No wonder Lemmy liked being DEI so much

[DeathByTheSword]

well drogue you are all for the plan if morgan declares war....so what do you think of it if we 'help' him to declare war....without losing reputation along the way?

[Voltaire]

Before we decide to do anything in terms of conquest; who gets to be in charge of the conquered territories? Do we create a new region, or just expand on the existing regions?

I personally would favor an attack on Morgan at some point in time, assuming he were to start the war. I don’t believe we as Peacekeepers have any business starting war, but we must finish them, particularly when our territorial sovereignty is threatened. Though before we take any military action, it would be prudent to probe him first and extract as much information as we can.

[Voltaire]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
well drogue you are all for the plan if morgan declares war....so what do you think of it if we 'help' him to declare war....without losing reputation along the way?

Exactly what I was thinking!

But as I’ve said before in my post above, we need to decide who gets to be in control of the conquered territory.

Seeing as the Morganites are closest to the Twin Sea region, as well as the fact that they are hindering the expansion of that region to the east, it should receive at least part of the conquered territory. This is in no way biased by the fact that I am governor of the region, it is rather an objective scientific and logistical viewpoint which is backed by logic and reason in full.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
well drogue you are all for the plan if morgan declares war....so what do you think of it if we 'help' him to declare war....without losing reputation along the way?

Against, firmly. I am a Pacifist, and by my post above I meant we should do something to retaliate if he attacks, but I would want peace ASAP. The less war the better as far as I'm concerned.

[Micha]

You´re right, DBTS and Voltaire! Let´s say we are winning the war, will we annex the Morganites or just show them who´s the boss? The creating of new provinces depends on that fact! The next point is, if we let them live with their last base, they´ll probably do the same they do now (sending colony pods to regions that should belong to us)....
This plan will surely cause a huge debate and perhaps even a

civil war

[Drogue]

Indeed, but I think this was discussed earlier if someone can find the thread should Morgan end up destroyed or as a submissive Pact Borther.

Do we really want to declare war on a Pact Brother? All the polls I've seen showed overwhelming support for pacting both Morgan and Zak, why has this suddenly changed?

[Voltaire]

Morgan is right next to us, and this may be rather a stupid reason to go to war with him, but it would be convenient. In a full scale war with the Hive we would have to divert troops to their continent, send heavy support and defenses for the captured Hive bases. Ultimately the Hive have the advantage since they’re fighting on the home front, whereas we have to deal with the hassle of transporting heavy numbers of troops across an ocean and supporting those troops. Logistically, a full scale war with the Hive is unreasonable.

Now let us take a look at the Morganites. First of all, they occupy the same landmass as we do. So we’d be fighting a war at home. There wouldn’t be any need for as much military spending and reversion of industry to military equipment. The Morganies are not nearly as militarized as the Hive, essentially they’d be an easier kill; we would not need to defend the captured bases with as many units given that the Morganite military infrastructure is now well developed. Furthermore, any taken Hiverian territory would essentially be harder to incorporate into the Peacekeeper government, given that 1) the citizens of those regions have been living for their entire lives under an oppressive totalitarian regime, and 2) it would be away form the Peacekeeper mainland. Whereas the Morganite territory taken would in essence be right at home, and would easily be incorporated into our existing administrative infrastructure.

And perhaps the key driving reason for behind the push for a war against the Morganies would be the very existence of a military. First and foremost, a military exists not for defense but rather to fight wars. Where there are no wars to fight the place of a military within a society becomes threatened. Currently we are not investing much towards our military, even with the fact that we are at war with the Hive, there haven’t been and aren’t doing to be in the near future heavy military clashes between our forces and the Hiverian forces. Now, consider this: with a war of expansion against the Morganites we would be pressed to invest more into our military, since there would be a clear and present danger on the home front; because let us face it, the Hiverian war is hardly what’s on the front of peoples minds, most citizens just go about their lives with little regard for it. But if all of a sudden we were faced with an enemy who’s right at our doorstep, rather than on some far of continent, there would be a demand by the public for increased military spending. Essentially, a military needs to justify its existence, and to do so it must fight wars.

That may be a cynical outlook on the whole issue of the reasons behind a push for a war of expansion against the Morganites, nevertheless I believe it to be accurate. Form a political perspective this war is also sound. First of all, as Governor of the Twin Sea region there is vested interest which the region has in a push for such a war. Namely that it has the best claims for the newly captured Morganite territory given the close proximity; the developed Morganite cities would be a welcomed addition to that region. Furthermore we need to expand, in fact it has been a government policy to expand our faction, but with little room in the south to expand further, sooner or later we would have to stop, but if we take control of Morganite territory we would no longer have this problem for the time being. There is of course the option of establishing colonies overseas, but a colonial empire is much harder to manage than one at home. So if you will, this war would be one of convenience. We may try and rationalize it, as the CCCP might, in terms of overthrowing the oppressive capitalist regime, but it would in the end serve the purpose, like all wars do, of territorial expansion.

The argument would now come down to, in my mind, of which is more advantageous to us. A pact with the Morganites? Or absorbing them into our own faction?

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Voltaire
A military exists not for defense but rather to fight wars.

A military exists both for defense and assult, and IMO we should be considering the former much more important ATM. I don't think convenience is a good enough reason to wage a war against everything we stand for.

Originally posted by Voltaire
And perhaps the key driving reason for behind the push for a war against the Morganies would be the very existence of a military... First and foremost, Where there are no wars to fight the place of a military within a society becomes threatened. Currently we are not investing much towards our military, even with the fact that we are at war with the Hive, there haven’t been and aren’t doing to be in the near future heavy military clashes between our forces and the Hiverian forces... But if all of a sudden we were faced with an enemy who’s right at our doorstep, rather than on some far of continent, there would be a demand by the public for increased military spending. Essentially, a military needs to justify its existence, and to do so it must fight wars.

Exactly, a military does need to justify expenditure and its existence, which is precisly why we have little military at the moment. There is not the justification for a military, and I see to reason to give it a reason without a need for war. The reason we need a military is war, therefore if the only reason for war is the military, we can do just as well (better IMHO) without either.

Why do we want to invent a demand for a military? If we need one fair enough, but why try to push for a reason for something we would not need without?

The Hive has the Command Nexus. I would be OK with taking that to aid our military when we need it (and decrease their capabilities). However they are already at war with us, and factionally diametrically opposed to our policies. But starting a war, that's not what Peacekeepers, or indeed what our citizens want at all the latest polls.

Originally posted by Voltaire
The argument would now come down to, in my mind, of which is more advantageous to us. A pact with the Morganites? Or absorbing them into our own faction?

Trading and letting them live IMHO. If there pods get annoying, then let us release MWs or Iods near them, and they will take care of them. We do not need a war, where, even if we gain as a faction, humanity looses.

And how can we be Peacekeepers if we start wars needlessly. It is a violation of their human rights, and it is against our ideals. They have chosen a leader, who are we to impose ours upon them? If this were in a war crimes tribunal, we would have no justification for this war. They have given us no provocation. We simply would not have a leg to stand on. If we are tor rid this world of any faction, let us remove the blight on humanity that is 'Chairman' Yang, and if that is not possibly yet, let us wait until it is, before wasting resources on this fruitless venture.

[DeathByTheSword]

well i couldnt have said it better if i tried....any reasons against a war with morgan has been overthrow by voltaire....the only and last problem will be that we are the peacekeepers and that we have to think about if we want a war that is openly or secretly started by us....well as i think of it...yes because i think the pro`s....like new bases, better morale units and well a military in the first place outweighs the con`s of the RP problems....

[DeathByTheSword]

Drogue what if morgan declares war on us because we are in planned...this will happen rather soon then later......if we wont have a military most citizens you included will scream bloody murder if we lose a base...so there i a need for a military....secondly a large portion of our faction thinks that Free Market is evil....or atleast not good.....so why not free the people that live in morgans bases from this evil? and the UNP doesnt stand for peace but it stand for some very basics thinks....like if you do not agree with us you are evil so we have to destroy you.....you can debate about it all you want but the UNP is just another faction that wants POWER.....and there way to POWER is through use of a UN charter that is like 200 years old...and obsolete. lets not kid ourself and be prepared for a war with morgan because it will come if we want it or not....then way not control this war and us it at the moment best soothed to our plans.... DBTS


btw new revisited plan of attack will come shortly

[Drogue]

It will come later I think. We have been at Planned and a Pact brother for 20 odd years at least, and so I see no reason for him to change from Pact to Vendetta quickly. I think we will have 50 more years of peace first, at least. And no, you still have to convince the populace (not to mention the DFA, if he is still against, he can chose not to post the poll, and thus we have no war). I will start an unofficial poll to test the water, but I think you have a way to go to convince most people to go against what we believe in the name of 'convenience'.

Yes the UN charter is 200 years old, but it is constantly amended, and is what we rule by. We are not factionally against war, but we are against displacing an elected ruler (like Morgan) and, since it is against democracy, against imposing our ruler on another, as that is a militaristic dictatorship. Let us build some defence in border bases, but prepared but friendly. And at least let us switch to Knowledge!!