The PPPC

[DarkCloud]

- Centralism / Confederalism
- Environmentalist/Humanist

.First, i wonder how we can make them in the compass, since that would make us 6 or 7 dimensions.

Hmm... You could always plot them on a different chart... and then show the rankings along side the original one as it is very hard to create a noncluttered chart that can plot more than 3 dimensions... unless you have some sort of strange program that can render on levels; like a peeling apple...

The rest of your ideas seem fairly sound...

[DarkCloud]

Just wondering, how are you going to do the questions? Are you going to do them broad-based or situation based?

Situation: "The Hive needs oil... do you drill in Alaska, thereby possibly damaging the wildlife, or do you exploit other nations? Or do you drill in Alaska with protections? Or do you search for alternate sources of energy?"

-Drill: +1 INDUSTRY +1 MARKET
-Exploit: +1 INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS +2 MARKET
-Protect: -1 INDUSTRY +1 ENVIRONMENT -1 MARKET
-Search: +1 SCIENCE +1 INDUSTRY +1 ENVIRONMENT -1 MARKET.

...just a model

OR a broad question:

"Do you like the gold standard or would you prefer a barter system?

-gold: +2 MARKET
-barter: +2 LIBERTARIANISM +1 FARMERISM

[Pandemoniak]

I think we're gonna make questions totally in the universe of SMAC, but concerning several "areas" at the same time, as much as possible.
I have no example rifht now, since I just woke up and I havent took my coffee yet, ill post it later

[Pandemoniak]

I had an idea for cenrtalism/confederalism and green/polluter. We could have one scale which would be modernity :
Earthian (centralised, archaic, polluting and inefficient society) against Chironian (confederate, modern, green and efficient society). This scale would go from 0 to 10, insted of -10 to 10, and wouldnt be used to calculate the distance between factions ort between tester and faction. It would be represented on the test by the size of a white aura of the dot.
Feedbacks welcome.

I ll let chances for everyone to join the designing until friday, and we'll start the email list this weekend. Of course, people could still join after this weekend.

[Drogue]

I think Earthian/Chironian is a bit vague. How would you ask questions on it? Because I think everyone would choose "confederate, modern, green and efficient society" over "centralised, archaic, polluting and inefficient society". Even FM advocates would want efficiency, and there seems to be a lack of bad points with Chironian and a lack of good ones with Earthian. I wouldn't do axis, I'm trying to show you what I meant by the 2d grid. Hopefully I'll post it tonight.

[lucky22]

I've got to agree with Drogue here. If I were to go into a fast food restaurant and ask people at random "do you believe in the ultimate realization of socially expressed human potential?" they'd likely answer "yes" and go back to eating the death of the world sitting in the styrofoam container in front of them.

That implies I have introduced bias into the measure by going with idealism rather than some more empirical, less value-laden item.

[Drogue]

Sorry I haven't been able to post my idea yet. I'm afraid I've been very busy with school work at the moment.
I'm going to Oxford for my uni interviews for a few days, so I won't be around until Sunday.

[Pandemoniak]

I was not planning to ask so direct questions, rather things like that :
How do you think we can deal with the ecodamage at [BASENAME0$] ?
1. The government has to make new environment protection laws
2. The citizens should have an "ecological service", like their "military service"
3. We should reduce our industrial density at [BASENAME0$]
4. The ecodamage is not a threat to the Planet.

Answer 2 and 3 are Chironian, answer 1 and 4 are Earthian. This is just made really quickly, so it s not really good example, but thats the idea.

[lucky22]

Although I feel the same way about the progressive and evolved opposed to the primitive and reactionary I think the Seven or Ten or Eleven (I agree with whoever said leave out the Pirates*) faction model is less biased by a single platform of views.

*Although when I first got to see the SMAX factions I had just been thinking how good Captain Nemo would have looked in there with the original seven!)

[Pandemoniak]

Re: The PPPC

Here are the quick database I made for the predefined faction datas :
HUM is for humanism : Thought Control being negative, Eudaimonia being positive
EDU is for Education, Fundamentalism being negative, Knowledge being positive
POL is politics, Police State being negative, Democracy being positive
SOV is Sovereignty, Prosperity (wealth) being negative, Nationalism (Power) being positive
ECO is for Economics, Free Market being Negative, Planned being positive

(MOD is Modernity, archaism being negative, modernism being positive. )

GAIANS
HUM +4
EDU +5
POL +6
SOV -6
ECO +5
(MOD +10)

HIVE
HUM -8
EDU -4
POL -10
SOV +8
ECO +8
(MOD -8)

UNIVERSITY
HUM -6 (based on their lack of ethic rather than on SE choices)
EDU +10
POL +4
SOV -5
ECO -4
(MOD 0)

PEACEKEEPERS
HUM +8
EDU +2
POL +10
SOV -4
ECO+2
(MOD -8)

BELIEVERS
HUM -2
EDU -10
POL -4
SOV +8
ECO +2
(MOD -10)

[b]SPARTAN[/b)
HUM 0
EDU -4
POL -2
SOV +10
ECO +2
(MOD +5)

[b]MORGANITES[b]
HUM 0
EDU +4
POL +6
SOV -8
ECO -8
(MOD -8)

DRONES
HUM +10
EDU +8
POL +8
SOV +2
ECO +10
(MOD -8)

CULTIST
HUM -8
EDU -2
POL -4
SOV +6
ECO 0
(MOD +10)

CONSCIOUSNESS
HUM -2
EDU +10
POL +6
SOV +0
ECO -2
(MOD +10)
--------------
After latest thoughts and what you wrote, I think it is better to suppress these two from the compass, since the Data Angels and the Pirates have not a clear "ideology personnality".

ANGELS
HUM +4
EDU +8
POL +6
SOV -8
ECO +4
(MOD +8)

PIRATES
HUM -4
EDU -2
POL -2
SOV +8
ECO +2
(MOD +6)
--------------
Here are some distances that I calculated between factions - I made them without anything but paper and pencil, so they might be wrong, feel free to correct me and/or do more calculations
Hive -- 812 -- Peacekeepers
Believers - 660 -- University
Morganites -- 526 -- Gaians
Remember all the length must be taken square root (ie d(Hive, Peacekeepers) is not 812, but (812)^(1/2). Thus if there is two distances, of 800 and 400, the first is NOT the double of the second, because it should be about 28 to 20.
geez, im not really clear am I ?


Anyway, all this is just the beginning of the work, so feel free to criticize

-------------------------
ADD ON :
Based on what I thought would be the best datas to represent me*, I made the following calculations of length -- without modernity. Please feel free to make your own to check if the general system is coherent.
Gaians : 34^(1/2) = 5.8
(Angels : 44^(1/2) = 6.6 )
Drones : 112^(1/2) = 10.6
Peacekeepers : 142^(1/2) =11.9
Consciousness : 300^(1/2) = 17.3
University : 381^(1/2) = 19.5
(Pirates : 600^(1/2) = 24.4 )
Spartans : 26.9
Believers : 27.5
Cultist : 810^(1/2) = 28.5
Hive : 936^(1/2) =30.6
Morganites 1100^(1/2) =33.2

*
HUM +8
EDU +6
POL +8
SOV -8
ECO +8
(MOD +6)

[lucky22]

The workload has arrived! It will take me a couple of days to make coherent and meaningful input... I'll shoot for Monday. Nice job Pan!

[Pandemoniak]

Originally mailed by Lucky22
3)Academics (the University)

---> You forgot to point their total lack of ethics, University can be consider either as academics, either as mad scientist who want to take control over the world -- IMHO, they're more mad scientist than benevolent teachers...

9)Adaptors/Off Earthers (Human into Alienists)

I didnt get what/who you meant by that.

[lucky22]

Originally posted by Pandemoniak

---> You forgot to point their total lack of ethics, University can be consider either as academics, either as mad scientist who want to take control over the world -- IMHO, they're more mad scientist than benevolent teachers...

I will be sure to make that distinction clearer when it becomes relevant.

I didnt get what/who you meant by that.

The Cult of Planet. I wanted to make my query to Gerard as AC-independent as possible, and the Cult is the one faction which is really trying to "go native". I think the point remains clear, though he will no doubt consider them as an Earth-bound group unless I also make the "actual" alien environment clear when it becomes relevant.

[DarkCloud]

green/polluter

What about Green/Developer instead. Polluters don't just want to pollute- they just want the fastest and most efficient Industry to be created.

How can the Gaians and Cultists be modern and the University and Morgan not?
The gaians are the most backward idiots I ever saw.
Do you judge modernism as "hippieism"???
The gaians want to go back to their roots; love the earth, not develop- the uni and morgan want to build!

-
Fairly okay list. a lot of work seems to have gone into it

[Pandemoniak]

The idea beteween archaism and modernism was related to the Planet : in SMAC, the Planet is a living being, like in the gaianism "theology/spirituality/beliefs". Both Morganites and University are really primitive in their vision of Planet, though really builder and progressist, while Gaian and Cultist have much more elaborated vision of the Planet -- and seeing Planet as a living being i a necessary condition for TRanscendance Victory.
Take the word ecodamage instead of pollution for example : its damage and injuries done to the living organism of Planet, not just impurities floating around. This is what mainly motivated my cision of green/polluter in SMAC.

Because of all that, I suggested to call this axis modern/primitive rather Earthian/Chironian.

Though all that, I think we simply wont use a scale for green/ecodamage and centralized/confederate, cause its not really reliable, not essentially interesting in the compass, and far too hard to make.