Director of Social Engineering Debate Thread: Term III

[Pandemoniak]

I'm not hijacking the thread. Remember Im a citizen and I have the right to participate a debate in my own way.
Moreover, you must call me "Your Honour", I'm a judge.

[AdamTG02]

Not to get sidetracked . . .

I don't have hard and fast preferences for society effects, but probably the top three in my mind are Research, Economy, and Efficiency. However, I'm more concerned with factors such as the speed of research (which is helped by all three of these) than our specific Social Engineering rating.

What I'll consider when making recommendations are the effects of changing to any given social type -- quicker research, quicker expansion, easier Golden Age, Population Boom in CC bases, Paradigm Economy, et cetera. In addition to game effects, I'll consider RP effects -- the social consequences of changing the society. For this reason, I won't consider switching out of Democracy for a turn or three to get 10 free minerals in new bases. It doesn't radically inconvenience us to make garrisons beforehand, but cancelling Democracy for short-term gain isn't something I would want to permit, RP-wise.

The caveat to that is that Democracy entails following the people's will, even when that will is to cancel the Democracy. So if we had a popular vote to go Frontier or Fundamentalist, I would support and implement that vote, while working to build support to return to Democracy. However, in no situation would I personally support a departure from a Democratic government.

Switching from one social model to another for a brief period is costly (32 credits each way), and it's unlikely that we would be able to fit all of our growth, or SP completion, onto a single term. I'd rather stay Planned, and be able to consistantly plan for Industry and Growth bonuses, or stay Free Market, and get a consistant bonus to cashflow which allows us to rush buy, compensationg for Industry bonuses.

In any case, if a switch is called for by a good number of citizens, I will poll it.

[Method]

this is going to be probably the hardest one to decide on...hmmm

[GeneralTacticus]

Adam: You need to reexamine the arguments for the brief switch. We'd be getting at leas t10 mins for 32 creds even if we only founded one base, which is a fairly reasonable deal, and it can only improve if we build more than 1 base.

Archaic: My questions were really directed at both of you, but, I was mainly asking Adam since at the time you had yet to show up in this thread.

I'd hold it as soon as I was in. Though frankly, and I expressed this about the poll thing long ago, if people voted me in, they voted for my policies, so I should be able to impliment them ASAP without hinderance.

Unless you have some policies that people don't like, but some that they do. People vote for you because they want you in office more than anyone else, but that doesn't mean they should accept your every decision without question.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by AdamTG02
Not to get sidetracked . . .

I don't have hard and fast preferences for society effects, but probably the top three in my mind are Research, Economy, and Efficiency. However, I'm more concerned with factors such as the speed of research (which is helped by all three of these) than our specific Social Engineering rating.

Agreed. This is actually why I didn't list Research as my main priority. Because in my experience, Research is better served by Cash Flow than by actual Research Bonuses.
Of course, if Cybernetic's an option at the time, of course I'm going to leap at that for it's stack of round-the-board bonuses.

Originally posted by AdamTG02
What I'll consider when making recommendations are the effects of changing to any given social type -- quicker research, quicker expansion, easier Golden Age, Population Boom in CC bases, Paradigm Economy, et cetera.

Agreed. Though a lot of these benifits often come hand in hand one must realise. And I've often found Paradigm Economy to be overrated. Same with GA's, but then, they're much easier to achieve with PK's, so they might be worth something here, depending on how they're brought about.

Originally posted by AdamTG02
In addition to game effects, I'll consider RP effects -- the social consequences of changing the society. For this reason, I won't consider switching out of Democracy for a turn or three to get 10 free minerals in new bases. It doesn't radically inconvenience us to make garrisons beforehand, but cancelling Democracy for short-term gain isn't something I would want to permit, RP-wise.

Think of it as a temp. suspension of elections while the bureaucracy and government are restructured to give fair and just representation of the citizens in the new colonies.

Originally posted by AdamTG02
The caveat to that is that Democracy entails following the people's will, even when that will is to cancel the Democracy. So if we had a popular vote to go Frontier or Fundamentalist, I would support and implement that vote, while working to build support to return to Democracy. However, in no situation would I personally support a departure from a Democratic government.

I would in no situation personally support a permanent departure from a Democratic government. Only a temp. switch for a certain necessary goal, with a specific time limit on it.

Originally posted by AdamTG02
Switching from one social model to another for a brief period is costly (32 credits each way), and it's unlikely that we would be able to fit all of our growth, or SP completion, onto a single term. I'd rather stay Planned, and be able to consistantly plan for Industry and Growth bonuses, or stay Free Market, and get a consistant bonus to cashflow which allows us to rush buy, compensationg for Industry bonuses.

In any case, if a switch is called for by a good number of citizens, I will poll it.

Quick switching requires some micromanagement, and so I'll need to co-ordinate my actions with those who decide worker placement and production so this can be managed, but it can be done. As for the cost......that's what FM helps us with. We'd have more than enough Credits to go around.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Unless you have some policies that people don't like, but some that they do. People vote for you because they want you in office more than anyone else, but that doesn't mean they should accept your every decision without question.

I never said they had to. If they don't like the way I've done things, then they vote me out next time. Elections are supposed to be about selecting the person who can do the best possible job. If their job is reduced to just posting polls and they're not allowed to further the policies they promised when they got elected, then the decision of who fulfills the roles may as well be arbitary.

[GeneralTacticus]

I never said they had to. If they don't like the way I've done things, then they vote me out next time. Elections are supposed to be about selecting the person who can do the best possible job. If their job is reduced to just posting polls and they're not allowed to further the policies they promised when they got elected, then the decision of who fulfills the roles may as well be arbitary.

I've posted my answer to this before:

"That's all well and good, but imagine how much damage an incompetent Director could do in 1 term if he didn't have to poll people. This would be particularly important in fields like SE or Science."

I'm not saying you would necessarily be incompetent, nor that an incompetent Director would ever get elected, but we need to ensure it doesn't happen. EDIT: and that if it does, it won't be a catstrophe.

[Archaic]

Which is why we have the impeachment option.

[Archaic]

DPDed

[Pandemoniak]

Originally posted by Archaic
Oh, and DBTS, I addressed the roleplay issue of it in the SE Debate thread.

Did someone *again* deleted Archaic's post or am I in the wrong thread ?

[Archaic]

No, you're just unobservant.

Think of it as a temp. suspension of elections while the bureaucracy and government are restructured to give fair and just representation of the citizens in the new colonies.

[AdamTG02]

GT: The price tag is 64 energy credits, and we would be getting 10 minerals which we could have later for 20 credits. Anyway, my strongest reasons for not switching out of Democracy are RP ones -- I don't think expediency justifies a suspension of the polls, even if we (as trusted Talents or however you want to explain it) would still be voting on policies.

Archaic: Agreed on the coordination with other departments.

GT again: I agree that, unchecked, a single Director can do some damage. It's one of the reasons I believe in, for small polities like this Democracy Game, as much participative democracy and citizen oversight as possible. In large societies that becomes counterproductive, and we use representative democracy with checks as a stopgap. However, in this Democracy Game we have a population small enough to run things in town meeting format.

[GeneralTacticus]

Which is why we have the impeachment option.

Which would help to limit the damage somewhat, but we want to prevent it happening AT ALL.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by AdamTG02
GT: The price tag is 64 energy credits, and we would be getting 10 minerals which we could have later for 20 credits. Anyway, my strongest reasons for not switching out of Democracy are RP ones -- I don't think expediency justifies a suspension of the polls, even if we (as trusted Talents or however you want to explain it) would still be voting on policies.

But like I and others have been saying, if it's properly co-ordinated that we're planting more than 1 base on the same turn, then it's a very worthwhile option.

Hell, to be perfectly honest, if we can set ourselves so we're making enough money, then the switch might not be necessary.
However...10 minerals won't cost 20 credits if you're doing it straight away. I'll pull my tables out when I get back home, but if we rushed at 10 minerals, it'd be pretty significant depending on what exactly we were building. You might be right and it might be around 20, however.......if it's a choice of paying 64 now, or waiting and wasting production time to pay 20 later, I know which I'd choose.

[Pandemoniak]

Originally posted by Archaic
No, you're just unobservant.

Think of it as a temp. suspension of elections while the bureaucracy and government are restructured to give fair and just representation of the citizens in the new colonies.

Still cant find that in this thread before you posted it as a quote. Your RP issues are kinda confusing, moreover I cant really see whats the RP link with whats above and the boring formulas about B-drones...

[GeneralTacticus]

I remember seeing that quote before he posted it here, not sure where though. Maybe he remembered wrong.