The Empath Guild

[AdamTG02]

Mixed economy is reflected or reflectable in each of the three choices, yes. What the US had in the early 21st century is hard to classify, but given that government's penchant for regulation I'd say that it was Planned (a market economy kept in check by government regulations, such as the Fed, OSHA, etc.) until the reforms of the Clinton years, and after that hard to quantify. We simply made our allies run FM, and threaten to break Pact unless they let our corporations crawl their resources.

[Maniac]

You claim the US has a market held in check with government regulations, and you would call it planned?? Tell me, is there one country in the world which you would call FM then? And is there one country in the western world which has less regulations for corporations, where the government has less control over them?

[Hercules]

Well yes. Tax havens like the Cayman islands and there are several others less well known. Is Switzerland an example?

[GeneralTacticus]

They couldn't have those without the facilities.

True enough, but it's quite obvious that the colonists would have had access to at least basic forms of these long before any facilities were built.

But I suppose that's just quibbling over a minor detail

What would this place be without that?

*Shrugs* Perhaps, though I know that for some the percieved benifits or lack there-of of (not) having environmental regulations will colour all their decisions on this matter. Thankfully, it would seem you aren't one of those people.

For me, the only real drawback of the PLANEt penatly is that annoying Psiwar penalty, but if our scouts are good enough, it shouldn't make much difference, especially once we develop the Empath Song.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
True enough, but it's quite obvious that the colonists would have had access to at least basic forms of these long before any facilities were built.

Have to be very basic if the building of a simple proper Rec. Commons can make 10000 people happy instantly.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
What would this place be without that?

Boring.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
For me, the only real drawback of the PLANEt penatly is that annoying Psiwar penalty, but if our scouts are good enough, it shouldn't make much difference, especially once we develop the Empath Song.

Though of course, we shouldn't have our scouts with Empath. Give them Trance. To fight the worms, we have worm hunter rovers. 1e-1-2.

[AdamTG02]

Maniac: A market held in check by government regulations is exactly what SMAC calls Planned. It's not a true planned economy, correct, but . . .

A semi-market economy kept in check by fierce governmental regulation

fits the US more than does the idea of an entirely free market. In a true FM, no interference by OSHA or EPA in the process of business would be tolerated.

As to whether there's a nation on Earth that's pure FM in that manner -- Saudi Arabia. As to whether the US is a perfect fit for Planned -- of course it isn't. Sweden is a much better fit. But the point is that these regulatory institutions simply don't exist in SMAC's FM. Government regulation is only an issue in Planned.

That's my take, and could very well be wrong. Should anyone prove to me I am wrong in my opinion, I will change it.

[GeneralTacticus]

Have to be very basic if the building of a simple proper Rec. Commons can make 10000 people happy instantly.

20 000, actually, but I see your point. However, the colonists must have some form of healthcare, otherwise they'd all be dead pretty quickly.

Boring.

I agree.

Though of course, we shouldn't have our scouts with Empath. Give them Trance. To fight the worms, we have worm hunter rovers. 1e-1-2.

Agreed.

Adam: I would hardly call the Us a 'semi-market economy'. There are government regulations on it, but I always saw the Planned regulations as being less about minimum wages or environmental regulations and more about price & wage controls.

[Frankychan]

Destroy the laissez-faire market! The government should regulate all aspects of the market! the US market is more FM than any other market on Earth, how can you guys not see it? The US govt. is too under the influence of "Big Business".

We should regulate our market by our PK government and make it Planned. Our business's should understand that the GOVERNMENT is in charge here, not corporations.

[GeneralTacticus]

Destroy the laissez-faire market! The government should regulate all aspects of the market! the US market is more FM than any other market on Earth, how can you guys not see it? The US govt. is too under the influence of "Big Business".

Using a Free Market doesn't mean we have to repeat the mistakes of those who used it before us. We won't.

We should regulate our market by our PK government and make it Planned. Our business's should understand that the GOVERNMENT is in charge here, not corporations.

Yes, I'm sure future generations of PK citizens will be most understanding when we hand them a faction reminiscent of the dying USSR or Eastern Europe.

[Frankychan]

Bah! *throws hands up in the air*

Just when we agree on things you have to disagree!

FM leads to more governmental corruption through greed and more available resources! The corporations under our government should be put under our heel and be made to understand that they are subserviant (sp?) to us, not vice versa.

Just because our government switches to a Planned economic pattern doesn't mean it will lead to a "dying USSR-like economy". I'd rather have strict governmental policies dictating how the market should be run rather than widespread corporate corruption that happened in the early 21st century. White collar crime is/was much more destructive than blue (or working class) collar crime.

[GeneralTacticus]

FM leads to more governmental corruption through greed

Human nature doesn't magically change because of the way your economy is set up. People are just as corruptible under Planned as under FM, but their corruption actually has more impact, as more power is concentrated into fewer hands, and there are less resources to go around.

and more available resources!

More resources does not equal more corruption. When resources are scarce, then you see enormous corruption, because people will desperate to grab their share. With more resources, you reduce the incentive for corruption (assuming you back this with strong laws against corruption).

Just because our government switches to a Planned economic pattern doesn't mean it will lead to a "dying USSR-like economy".

Oh yes, it will. Not today, not tommorow, but it will, as surely as night follows day. It is phsically impossible, without Thought Control, for a government to efficiently run an economy. Economic inefficiency and corruption were what destroyed Sovietism.

[GeneralTacticus]

I'd rather have strict governmental policies dictating how the market should be run rather than widespread corporate corruption that happened in the early 21st century.

There's no reason why it should have to be a choice between one or another. Corporate corruption was a result of an ethical failure on the part of the CEOs, not a failure of the system.

White collar crime is/was much more destructive than blue (or working class) collar crime.

Of course. But using a Planned economy doesn't eliminate white-collar crime, it just places it all in government.

[Frankychan]

Human nature doesn't magically change because of the way your economy is set up. People are just as corruptible under Planned as under FM, but their corruption actually has more impact, as more power is concentrated into fewer hands, and there are less resources to go around.

Does not the most of the 21st centuries economic power rest in oligarchical (i.e. "good-ole-boy") power? The only change would be a shift of power from private industry holders into governmental hands.

More resources does not equal more corruption. When resources are scarce, then you see enormous corruption, because people will desperate to grab their share. With more resources, you reduce the incentive for corruption (assuming you back this with strong laws against corruption).

When more resources are available to the "haves", they will try and control its introduction to the "have-nots". Just because a resouce is abundant does not necessarily mean that there will be less corruption. It's more about who controls the available resources rather than how much resources are available.

Oh yes, it will. Not today, not tommorow, but it will, as surely as night follows day. It is phsically impossible, without Thought Control, for a government to efficiently run an economy. Economic inefficiency and corruption were what destroyed Sovietism.

What destroyed 20th century Russian Soviet-ism was the lack of global economics and the US's unwillingness to open trade with "The Reds". Although true, corruption did destroy Russian communism in the 20th century, we see that US corportate corruption is/was gaining. It is/was only a matter of time before the Thought Control of the times (i.e. Mass Media) caught on to public interest did/do we see that corporate greed is/was the same as Soviet greed and corruption.

[GeneralTacticus]

Does not the most of the 21st centuries economic power rest in oligarchical (i.e. "good-ole-boy") power? The only change would be a shift of power from private industry holders into governmental hands.

While the economy of the 21st century is certainly not a good model for us, I'd rather keep the corruption in corporations than place it in the 'State Planning Commission'.

When more resources are available to the "haves", they will try and control its introduction to the "have-nots". Just because a resouce is abundant does not necessarily mean that there will be less corruption. It's more about who controls the available resources rather than how much resources are available.

Yet you somehow think this will be different under a Planned economy? The only difference between the two is that under Planned, the state becomes the corporations. Corruption doesn't become a perversion of the system, it becomes a feature of it.

What destroyed 20th century Russian Soviet-ism was the lack of global economics and the US's unwillingness to open trade with "The Reds".

Other factors helped to exacerbate Soviet economic difficulties, but that doesn't change the fact that they would have existed regardless. It would simply have taken longer for them to fall.

Although true, corruption did destroy Russian communism in the 20th century, we see that US corportate corruption is/was gaining.

US corporate corruption came about because of excessive privatisation, in that corporations were effectively permitted to audit themselves. There's no reason why we should repeat those mistake here.

It is/was only a matter of time before the Thought Control of the times (i.e. Mass Media) caught on to public interest did/do we see that corporate greed is/was the same as Soviet greed and corruption

I'm getting very tired of your comparing the Mass Media to Thought Control. The media has enormous power over people's perceptions, true, and this is not a good thing, but there's nothing to stop you from disbelieving the media. It is physically impossible to resist Though Control.

[Frankychan]

good point. i think i'll stop before this turns into a "Frankychan vs. Everone else" thread.



Still....i'm just debating in a friendly matter, no need to get .....if in fact you are.