OFFICIAL - To decide once and for all on the time limit for playing turns (part1)

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Flubber



Honghu-- spoken like a Hiver

You haven't said that!

Ok, how about this. Each decision has to pass two test, one on one person on vote basis, one on one faction one vote basis, just like the House and Senete here in the US. Or, like the UN. Each person still have one vote, with some super powers, say, faction leaders, that have veto powers. Now the only worry is, would we be able to pass anything?

[Jamski]

Didn't Googliegod decide the initial game parameters on the basis of one person one vote?

Indeed, although GooglieGod, didn't exactly decide at the time, but the one-person, one-vote polls did, of which there were many. These polls should have been held then, but *holds up hands* we forgot, OK.

-Jam

[Flubber]

Originally posted by HongHu


You haven't said that!

Ok, how about this. Each decision has to pass two test, one on one person on vote basis, one on one faction one vote basis, just like the House and Senete here in the US. Or, like the UN. Each person still have one vote, with some super powers, say, faction leaders, that have veto powers. Now the only worry is, would we be able to pass anything?

Nope

Do it one way or the other, we don't ewant deadlock. I accept that one-person, one vote polls set up all the game parameters. BUt now that the game is started, it seems appropriate to treat each FACTION equally. There will be factional interests. Even this poll is somewhat factional as I can see that a Hiver was taking good-natured potshots at the University for their slow turnaround time

Individuals get votes to determine their factions policy. Then thefactions determine the rules that in the end, govern FACTIONS.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Flubber
Even this poll is somewhat factional as I can see that a Hiver was taking good-natured potshots at the University for their slow turnaround time

But haven't you noticed that ANOTHER Hiver (me ) was speaking on their behalf?

[Jamski]

Even this poll is somewhat factional as I can see that a Hiver was taking good-natured potshots at the University for their slow turnaround time

Something he had no right to do, as our previous turn had been even slower but it was good-natured roleplay, so.....

-Jam

[Googlie]

I believe that the pre-game decision polls (one person one vote) were a carryforward from ACDG-1 (which wasn't an actual PBEM, but rather a "phantom" game), where every participant had a say in the rules and regulations governing the play.

I have no problem with 1-person / 1-vote, so with 58 voting members (talking me out of each faction) no single faction (yet) has an absolute majority)

And if it interests anyone, I voted in the polls - 48 hours to discuss, argue, then play the turn. If not done by then, I give a warning of a 12 hour "grace" period, after which I open the turn, hit "turn complete" and post it.

Siure, that could mean 12 1/2 days for a single turn cycle (and a year of our time to reach 2400 in AC time - but few PBEMs ever last that long anyway)

But not every faction is as efficient as the Hive and the Drones, with units on "automatic" as their movement has been planned for a few turns and five-deep build queues. And a couple of factions have time zone coverages from GMT - 8 to GMT + 10, so getting concensus can sometimes be difficult.

I have no problem with the 1-faction / 1-vote concept, if that concept is endorsed by a 1-participant / 1- vote majority decision

G.

[Snowflake]

I see all these polls are informative but not enforcive until Googliegod makes them into the formal rules. In other words, anybody can make another poll with options about whether the result of these polls should count or be thrown out, and you can make it a poll that one faction only gets one vote. Again, this poll would be informative for Googlie in his decision of the rules but not in itself binding.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Googlie
And a couple of factions have time zone coverages from GMT - 8 to GMT + 10, so getting concensus can sometimes be difficult.

This IS a disadvantage for some teams that is outside of their control. I apologize that I didn't thought of that earlier.

[Jamski]

We shall see what people decide, eh? Personally, I've no problem with turns taking a week, but I want to get an "official" system in place to keep things going along.

-Jam

[Drogue]

Also, all 4 at once? Don't some depend on others? I voted 48 hours btw.

[Static Universe]

I voted 48 hours as well. 24 hours just seems to rushed to me. I'd like to be able to make a Hive turn chat for once.

[johndmuller]

This whole issue is quite possibly a tempest in a teapot, as I doubt that Googlie is likely to spoil the game by hammering someone with a major sanction like the turn-complete button unless they are ultra deserving - like they have been completely out of touch and haven't taken turns for 4 or 5 years and whatever guidance they may have left for the Googster has run out and he is getting tired of thinking about / taking care of their faction - no matter what may get decided in these arguably controversial polls. Hey, I live in the District of Columbia, where Taxation without Representation is still in effect (and where other peoples' representatives are free to overrule our own local legislature if they feel like it), so I know a phoney electoral system when I see one - and this one sure smells like a duck.

While the fact that we are working this issue in advance rather than retroactively is a good sign, the fact remains that this is still a decent example of a factional-interest issue. The Hive deplores it's 50% participation rate - I would call that quite high enough to win any election with the help of only 1 other faction. When it gets down to 4 Human factions, it would be an almost sure thing that the Hive and an ally would win every election. We political science types call this sort of thing the "tyranny of the majority", which Jefferson and the other famous US "Democrats" were quite afraid of (and the same kind of thing that is likely to come into play in Iraq) and so they designed in quite a few undemocratic things, like the (originally mostly appointed) Senate, the Electoral College, supermajority requirements etc. . . .

(full disclosure) Being prone to slow play myself (to which Cap'n Flubber and Free Worker Mongoose, among others, would no doubt vigorouslly attest), I can easily see being on the wrong side of any sanctions - but in fact I can see it happening to anyone - and if some teams get small as the game goes on, it will be liklier than ever. The rules being offered here don't have anywhere near the kind of flexibility we will need over the long haul for even your everyday special cases, like major holidays and early stage negotiations when you first meet another faction. Later in the game, there will be key people needing to go out of town or other RL stuff - in regular PBEMs, even in cutthroat 'Where-the-H#ll's-the-Turn' games, people ask for delays all the time (with the expectation of getting them, even if they politiely offer to be temporarily replaced). If we make hard-core rules, we will just be enabling hotheads with a soapbox to jump up and down on - we should be talking about loose guidelines if anything.

And the decision process should protect minority rights better than a straight out majority vote.

Suggestion: The Official dissent of any two factions to a poll necessitates a by-faction roll call vote requiring a majority of factions to pass the measure. (This is simple enough and even works with 4, 3, and 2 factions left in the game)

[Drogue]

I disagree. In these issues, it is nothing to do with which faction you come from. As for the ones that decided the map, they are faction free issues. This is where each person has an equal opinion. If we vote by faction for this, each member of the Hive is valued at less than each Pirate. I agree with the loose guidelines, but voting by faction is only good when it comes to the actual game, not to outside things, such as timings.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by johndmuller
like they have been completely out of touch and haven't taken turns for 4 or 5 years

Sounds a little bit TOO long to me. I wonder if Googliegod or any of us are still around waiting by that time ...

While the fact that we are working this issue in advance rather than retroactively is a good sign, the fact remains that this is still a decent example of a factional-interest issue.

I would think exactly the opposite. Discussing an issue in advance is the best way to avoid any factional-interest so that people can offer their opinions in a more objective manner. In fact in this case the discussion is already a little too late. The best timing is before the game actually starts.

The rules being offered here don't have anywhere near the kind of flexibility we will need over the long haul for even your everyday special cases, like major holidays and early stage negotiations when you first meet another faction. Later in the game, there will be key people needing to go out of town or other RL stuff - in regular PBEMs, even in cutthroat 'Where-the-H#ll's-the-Turn' games, people ask for delays all the time (with the expectation of getting them, even if they politiely offer to be temporarily replaced). If we make hard-core rules, we will just be enabling hotheads with a soapbox to jump up and down on - we should be talking about loose guidelines if anything.

Completely agree. A request for delay with valid reasons should be granted. You offered very good points about what some of the special circumstances are. This is exactly why we need to discuss this issue in advance.

And the decision process should protect minority rights better than a straight out majority vote.

Again, agree.

Suggestion: The Official dissent of any two factions to a poll necessitates a by-faction roll call vote requiring a majority of factions to pass the measure. (This is simple enough and even works with 4, 3, and 2 factions left in the game)

I think this is a good idea. Kind of in the same line with my thought.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Drogue
voting by faction is only good when it comes to the actual game, not to outside things, such as timings.

You said exactly what I want to say. One caveat is that we need to thoroughly discuss an issue before any decision is made, just like what we are doing now.