Next DG Discussion

[Player99]

How 'bout a multiplayer with 5 AI and 2 human players then? It should go pretty fast.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by binTravkin
And diocese-province-conclave doesn't really make sense to me, as to what is province and what diocese.

It really is diocese (bases) - conclave (faction), with provinces being dioceses that band together.

Originally posted by binTravkin
As I already said 2 hierarchy levels is the least complex hierarchy and therefore should be there for ACDG.
It IS KISS.
The conclave is the boss and the parishes are (not so) loyal pawns.

I think we're basically in agreement, here. The major implication of provinces is that it allows players running bases to band together to prevent immigration and hostile takeovers.

Originally posted by binTravkin
They often group together according to their ideology - a pro-scholarship parish joins Order Of Candle, the pro-crusade joins Order Of Sword, however there must be possibility to be independent for that matter..

This is where I differ. Players are part of Orders. Orders exist to elect members of the Curia (Directors).

Parishes (Maniac calls them diocese) belong to the players who reside there. Players can move among the bases unless there is an anti-immigration rule in effect.

The residents of a parish can cooperate with different Orders.

Originally posted by binTravkin
Orders are not part of hierarchy, aka not a vertical organisation, but a horizontal, aimed at achieving distinct vertical goals.

I don't follow about the Orders trying to achieve "vertical" goals. My understanding is that they work to elect members of the Curia and see their ideology or ambitions achieved through a successful election.

Originally posted by binTravkin
Each order has 2 types of participants - parishes and residents.
Order picks a Grandmaster out of its ranks, most likely a skilled parish.

Each Order has players.

Originally posted by binTravkin
It couldn't be simpler than that (while keeping the RP fun).

Maniac's original proposal did not have Orders. We have two distinct ways players can participate without holding a position in the Curia:

1. Running the base where they live.
2. Being part of an Order.

Between the two of them, 1. is more in keeping with KISS, since bases are part of the game. The idea of KISS is not to make the game as simple as possible (the Civ III/IV vs. SMAC discussion), but to eliminate unnecessary refinements to enjoyment.

For a new player coming into the game, I see that player living at HQ and not belonging to any Order. These players would participate in polls, elect the Pontifex Maximus and could develop their own role play identity.

Then a player might choose to move to a base. They would get involved in running that base. They'd still be involved in polls and electing the Pontifex Maximus.

Finally a player might choose to join an Order. Because Orders are involved in elections and their own faction-wide agendas, there would be quite a bit of diplomacy and politics with other Orders. As members of Orders are still residents of bases, the activities of the Order would be in addition to their activities at the base.

[Mart]

Originally posted by Player99
How 'bout a multiplayer with 5 AI and 2 human players then? It should go pretty fast.

First, I would like to see, if there is enough SMAC only owners wishing to play. So far, only 1 voted.

[AdamTG02]

Hmm, playing religious fanatics sounds wholly unininteresting. (I know Maniac and I did the Kosmist thing in the ACPSG, but that was less religious and more mystic.) Count me out, though I wish the rest of you luck.

[Mart]

AdamTG,
I find playing a religious faction extremely interesting, due to its possibilities for taking into acount the ideological aspects such a faction should concentrate on. That is a huge area for interaction between players. That would be a mixture of political life with religious. Will faction members follow more political needs or ideological? Will they bend politics to suit religion or the other way around?

[binTravkin]

I don't follow about the Orders trying to achieve "vertical" goals. My understanding is that they work to elect members of the Curia and see their ideology or ambitions achieved through a successful election.

2. Being part of an Order.

I fully disagree with Order's being there 'just for electing'.
Orders MUST have an executive power.
It can be an indirect one, by having it's members run some of the bases, but there MUST be one.
It is the only way we can keep a real competition between the orders and make them actually want to work well, not to discuss or poll well.

The difference between an order and a party is that party is merely a group of people who want to elect some of their own, and it is their sole purpose.
Orders having actual control over bases through parishes of that order would have 2 purposes:
- election
- competition for power on a more material scale than poll.

I introduced this idea because I find sitting or lurking around just to poll, dull.
I want my party to work as team, not as a stead of people who just happen to have similar views (at least RP wise) and who are happy to have every chance to poll, discuss or otherwise raise their postcount.
Part of the reason Gaian team died, was that there were few people who dominated most issues and all the others had almost no chance to as to having less authority or not so much expierence.

Bring the power to the people!

[bluetemplar]

A random thought for the SPDG:
Maybe Blind Research would be more interesting to roleplay?
Also it would be interesting to vote about which Priority(/ies) to choose...

(Or this has already been decided, in this case ignore my post. Maybe I will finally find some time to read all the thread in the following days...)

[Mart]

Someone said: playing Believers with blind research is... masochism?

[binTravkin]

It's masochism indeed, see how we be doing building scout patrols and CPs up to 2120 or thereabouts..

One could start a poll though - it wouldn't be so bad with blindres and techstag on.
At least something challenging and something which would really pull us up to probes and using them.

[bluetemplar]

What, you've never done an One City Challenge with Miriam, Blind Research and Tech Stagnation on? And starting near Marr?

Sorry, I forgot you were talking about the Miriam's equivalent in SmaniAC Mod...

Edit: I proposed Blind Research because:
1) It's more "realistic" not knowing what tech will be discovered, more emphasis will be put in roleplay as some players will want to go for Conquest techs, some for Build techs, etc... instead of "We must beeline to X because it's the best way to play this faction".
2) When we will need to decide what tech to choose, a poll will be done to decide in what direction research should go. With an overwhelming majority, only one direction will be chosen, if there are two (or more) directions which are near in number of votes then both will be chosen, etc...
(or maybe this system is not compatible with the organisation you're setting in place... I definitely have to read all of this!)

Also I think that making a PBEM/DG with only two factions would result in a similar experience than a SPDG, since there could hardly be any diplomacy between these factions... it will be "US vs THEY".
And the roleplay in those factions will be limited in order to remain competitive: in 1 vs 1 every mineral, every move, every ec counts! (as I painfully learned in my second 1vs1 PBEM: a 2-tile road would have completely changed the whole game!)

I think that at least 3 factions are required, and even then it might not be enough to have a good diplomatic gameplay...

4 is probably the minimum and 7 is the best if there is a way that the turns are done fast enough or if some people are willing to settle for 3-5 years...

All this is my personal opinion, and since I didn't play in the precedent DG's, maybe I'm completely wrong...

[Maniac]

Originally posted by vyeh
Let's drop the secret goals re binTravkin's KISS principle.

Missions sound nice though IMHO, in case there's a dull moment in the game. Eg retrieve some artifact on the other side of Planet, and get some big reward for it.

Can I join?

Anyone is welcome of course.
Have a look if you're interested. I assume you can already guess most of the roleplay sources and possible gameplay goals from the intro.

Agreed. Are you amenable to a two-thirds vote to change factional law?

Sure since you insist.
For the record, another method to give the Curia autonomy would be set the quotum for a law to pass high. Eg the number of YEA votes must be at least 50% of the number of people who voted in the last Order support/membership poll. That way, even if there's only a 50%+1 limit for laws to pass, the Curia could only be overrided if there's large support for it, and everyone is rallied to vote in the poll.

If we have a provision that factional laws must apply to the faction as a whole, then I'd be satisfied and will withdraw the two-thirds vote issue.

How about something along the lines of "Factional laws may not single out an Order, a province or a diocese." or "Factional laws must apply to the faction as a whole"?

With respect we differ on this assumption. I want to force the Conclave to give autonomy (although the Comm works, the Curia can't force the local Clergy through their locally elected governor to build specific units or facilities). When the first base is colonized from HQ, people would have a choice: they could stay at HQ and play with HQ or they could move to the new base.

The two tier system will never work if the autonomy has to be given by the majority. We could easily have a situation where the majority decides to withhold autonomy for the entire game.

As the Constitution is currently posted, it quite clearly specifies that a base runs its own screen, units, etc. and that the people who live at a base run it. So unless you have a newer version that hasn't been posted, I don't see how the majority can withhold autonomy except through intrusive polls (which is why I want something written in).

I was thinking that in the beginning the Conclave could put a taxation of 100% on all bases' production, to ensure colony pod production. If such a high taxation level continued after a few bases were already established, that would indeed ruin the point of a two level system. On the other side, if the people in control of the second base would refuse to build any colony pods, this would wreck the whole game as well.

Not necessarily. Presumably, the largest Order won a key seat or two in the Curia. If heads of Curia have to live at HQ, then they couldn't migrate. And an Order might get several unaffiliated players to support it in the local election. So we might end up with the governor being affiliated with a minority Order.

True of course.

1. Please clarify. Does a base belong to the people living there (who could be unaffiliated with an Order or belong to several Orders) or to a specific Order?

The people. Though I assume that after lots of bases are established, people belonging to the same order would flock together to found provinces.

Originally posted by AdamTG02
Hmm, playing religious fanatics sounds wholly unininteresting. (I know Maniac and I did the Kosmist thing in the ACPSG, but that was less religious and more mystic.) Count me out, though I wish the rest of you luck.

A religious faction doesn't need to be fanatic. You can always found a mystic order if you want. All religions are diverse.

Originally posted by bluetemplar
Edit: I proposed Blind Research because:
1) It's more "realistic" not knowing what tech will be discovered, more emphasis will be put in roleplay as some players will want to go for Conquest techs, some for Build techs, etc... instead of "We must beeline to X because it's the best way to play this faction".
2) When we will need to decide what tech to choose, a poll will be done to decide in what direction research should go. With an overwhelming majority, only one direction will be chosen, if there are two (or more) directions which are near in number of votes then both will be chosen, etc...
(or maybe this system is not compatible with the organisation you're setting in place... I definitely have to read all of this!)

Hmm, personally I'd argue against blind research. Deciding what b-line to follow is a large part of the entire game strategy. Also though for some factions the path to choose is more obvious than for others (eg for Cult & Gaians the Explore branch is a no-brainer) in general I'd say there aren't any tech directions that you must follow in every game. If there would be one after all, I'd say SMAniaC is a failure.

[fed1943]

Partners,please allow me to say that:It seems like some ones fear most players will be put off play and some others fear some players will play against our faction.
Obviously,if any of these things would happen,the game would be dead.I don't think so,but I can say you that no law can prevent thatw cannot stop people,only people can do it.True,there are rules that encourage not to do it.For instance:Curia lives in HQ;holy deeds give credit to Bishops(holy deeds would be actions good to the Conclave,such as foundation of new base,and could be apointed,never imposed,by the Curia/CMN(?).
But,please,lets go on,poll the non-agreed points(if any)poll the constitution and let the games begin.
Best regards,

[Maniac]

Yeah I agree with that sentiment.

[fed1943]

So,let me elaborate a little about holy deeds.They could be predefined,but at least some better be apointed later.Why?Because temporary deeds are essential(think at colony pods,both always and never would be very bad).Sure,some can be set from the begining.But some,if not all,must be pointed during the game.And I think best to trust this task to the Curia.The Curia will be over any doubt because his members live in HQ,their rights,if they belong to Order,pariash,whatever,will remain frozen while they are in the Curia,all his(Curia)apointments are never individual,but to everybody,and credits and rewards are never to the Curia.
To keep track of the deeds,I hope some computer'trick will do (I got the idea from Spartan's simulator).
I am hoping this help to keep everybody happy.
Best regards,

[Mart]

Have we decided game setup?

map size, opponent factions etc?