Next DG Discussion

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Maniac
If you want to give the AI a better chance by making the game boring, why not play Civ3?

Like that would help.

Nah, you need humans, or the game will get boring. Or rigged beyond recognition.

[GeoModder]

Opponents can come from within a faction as well, and that makes things sooner more interesting I think.

[Method]

Single player

[Mead]

Whichever style we choose (ACDG 1, 2, or 3) I like the idea of Human 'acted' AI.

One to three 'actors' could share the 'starring' roles of the non-team factions. To ease their burden, and to make it less likely that they will get 'too human' we could place the below or similar restrictions and powers:

Governor On in all bases - (perhaps with a focus area or not);

Human AI assistant cannot set or change build ques (perhaps can rush);

If possible - AI, not actor, decides what to research;

All formers are either autoimprove home base or fully automated;

Human actor, handles all diplomacy;

Human actor, handles all unit moves (except formers unless they are being used defensively as a garrison) and attacks;

Human AI assistant can set SE.

With 1 to 3 actors, they could taking turns playing the AI turns. One could do one years worth of turns, and so on.


Mead

PS
There is no magic number of actors we need, just enough so that they are not too burdened, and not so many that we lose too many people to being an actor.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by arginine
The standard computer AI is increadibly stupid. I just want the next demo game to include some opponents smarter than the average AI.

Not when beefed up. DGs aren't just about haing a good game, or else we'd be playing a regular PBEM. They're about interaction, playing as a team. That doesn't matter what opponant you have. Last time it was on Thinker and it worked, though yes, it was too easy. But the fun came from trying to get your agenda across (I was leader of a green party, trying to rid Planet of Boreholes and promote a stable environment), from the ways you worked together, with different strategies. This isn't happening when we have 3 or 4 active people playing the turn in most teams. It does when we have 20 people in a team.

With tweaks we can make the AI challenging, even virtually invincible. Sure, it's not a human player, but that's doesn't matter, it plays like an AI we've never played before, very differently to the normal AI.

Originally posted by Mead
Whichever style we choose (ACDG 1, 2, or 3) I like the idea of Human 'acted' AI.

I really don't. If you have a human opponant, then you can only play one turn at a time, and only in a PBEM fashion. Plus this person would need to be banned from Apolyton, or the forum made private. The slow pace of a game played one turn before sending on is a major disadvantage of multiplayer DGs, and not worth it just to get a different type of AI than a tweaked one. Indeed, with us knowing each others playing styles, to some extent, it may be more predictable than a heavily tweaked AI.

What we play now are hardly democracy games. There's no elections, no teams of any great size - it's just a glorified PBEM. Bring back a proper democracy game, so we can all experience what it's like.

[GeoModder]

This seems to become a case of vets opinions against more or less newcomers opinions (in DG games that is).

[Mead]

Originally posted by Drogue

Originally posted by Mead
Whichever style we choose (ACDG 1, 2, or 3) I like the idea of Human 'acted' AI.

I really don't. If you have a human opponant, then you can only play one turn at a time, and only in a PBEM fashion.

If you bunched all the 'AI' acted factions one right after the other, then ther would be only one 'delay' per turn. Especially if there was only one human faction then the turn rate would be very fast.

Plus this person would need to be banned from Apolyton, or the forum made private.

That's OK, the human forum or forums if more than one human team, could be made private. Plus, I would not expect the 'AI' actor to peek at the human forums. They are not in it to win; merely play their role well and have fun.

The slow pace of a game played one turn before sending on is a major disadvantage of multiplayer DGs, and not worth it just to get a different type of AI than a tweaked one.

Again I fail to see the great delay. Right now we have four factions that require 48 (we hope) hours to play a turn. If we had one human faction (with 48 hours) and six 'AI' actor factions requiring 12 (maybe 24) hours for the actors to make their moves for all the 'AI' factions, we would have a turn every 36-48 hours verses the 192 hours it takes now.



Mead

[Net Warrior]

I like Drogues idea of a beefed up AI in a SPDG with many factions WITHIN the human team. I'd like to see a Science Committee ruling over all aspect of research, a Dept of Defence ruling over all military operations, a Covert Ops Dept, a Dept of Interior to rule over former use, etc, etc.

[arginine]

Plus this person would need to be banned from Apolyton, or the forum made private.

Some people had voluntered to be AI players. Maybe if we asked to see how many were willing...

I still think that 'automated' human players playing against us would be most desirable. The governing humans can act all important in diplomacy in their own special embassy, while the silicon handles most of the menial tasks. The big IF, is IF the automation really will save lots of time.

DGs aren't just about haing a good game, or else we'd be playing a regular PBEM. They're about interaction, playing as a team. That doesn't matter what opponant you have.

True, but a decent opponent is more satisfying than complete bozo. The tweaked AI may be a decent opponent. Also, A 'human' gives better diplomacy than a tweaked AI. I've never played a tweaked AI, so it would be interesting for me.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Mead
I really don't. If you have a human opponant, then you can only play one turn at a time, and only in a PBEM fashion.

If you bunched all the 'AI' acted factions one right after the other, then ther would be only one 'delay' per turn. Especially if there was only one human faction then the turn rate would be very fast.
Yes, but that would still be playing turns individually. They'd be a delay after each turn. ACDG1 worked well playing 7 turns at a turnchat. It meant the game went much quicker and more interesting.

Originally posted by Mead
Again I fail to see the great delay. Right now we have four factions that require 48 (we hope) hours to play a turn. If we had one human faction (with 48 hours) and six 'AI' actor factions requiring 12 (maybe 24) hours for the actors to make their moves for all the 'AI' factions, we would have a turn every 36-48 hours verses the 192 hours it takes now.

If people were on at the right time, I'd be amazed if they manaed to do 6 factions moves in 12 hours, and 48 is meaning people go over now, which would be much more likely with 20 players. I'd guess turns would move closer to every 100 or so hours, with 72 for the main faction and 24 minimum for the PBEM factions. Moreover, that is slow, being one turn at a time, and doesn't happen at regular intervals. The idea of a turnchat is we meed on IRC once a week and play a few turns. In ACDG1, that meant 7 per week.

Originally posted by arginine
True, but a decent opponent is more satisfying than complete bozo. The tweaked AI may be a decent opponent. Also, A 'human' gives better diplomacy than a tweaked AI. I've never played a tweaked AI, so it would be interesting for me.

The tweaked AI could be made so it would be virtually impossible for us to win. However more likely it would be made challenging, but doable. I agree we need a decent opponent, but a tweaked AI is that, and it's vastly quicker than a human player, means we can do a turnchat, which gets everyone involved, rather than just one person playing the turn, and means we can keep the forum public, so people can drop in, it's easier for newbies, etc.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Net Warrior
I like Drogues idea of a beefed up AI in a SPDG with many factions WITHIN the human team. I'd like to see a Science Committee ruling over all aspect of research, a Dept of Defence ruling over all military operations, a Covert Ops Dept, a Dept of Interior to rule over former use, etc, etc.

Exactly.

What we had for ACDG1 was different political parties, at the beginning loads, but boiling down to 3 at the end:

STEP - Save The Environment Party - who wanted to keep the land green and beautiful, without boreholes. Obv. going for Green economics.
DLP - Democratic Libertarian Party - who wanted a Free Market and everything run for maximum production and profit.
CCCP - Chiron Citizens Communal Party - who wanted a Planned, Eudaimonic society run for happiness of the citizens.

These parties put people up for positions in government (as well as independant candidates), then once a month we voted, for everything from the leader, who plays the turn, to Directors of Science, Social Engineering, Base Operations, Foreign Policy, etc. When our faction got large, we had governors for different regions, so the region STEP controlled (Akiria) was without boreholes and has lush green land, etc. They also campaigned for different policies and the like.

There was a consitution that said what every position was responsible for, and how the faction was run. Everyone met at 10pm, GMT on a Sunday, IIRC, and played the turns.

This means we can have a fulfilling game, taken to the end game, rather than necessarily winning before 2200, in under a year, as opposed to the 18 months it usually takes to get to 2180 or so and winning. Hell, the factions usually take well over 6 months to meet each other, meaning the main forum can't be used in a PBEM style game.

[GeoModder]

In case this becomes a one team ACDG, I would propose 1 turn/day. This for people who can't be online on a given agreed upon time, and so that gameplay is possible for those who cannot use the chat thing. (I for instance can't access 'Poly chatrooms)

[binTravkin]

SPDG

rigged beyond recognition.

And I mean it!

Faction: Cult (to have less need to beef.. )

[Googlie]

I'd be willing to set up the AI to (try) and provide a real challenge

It might work best with a modified accelerated start - say 5 bases - or colony pods - for the SPDG team and the same (but established bases) - more or less - for each of the AI factions

[GeoModder]

Starting year 2120, Googlie?

BinTravkin: Believers!

Then we can call it a real ACRG (Alpha Centauri Religious Game)