The sad story of a failed naval "invasion"

[ElDonReal]

I printed a little of the AI's attempts at performing a naval invasion. Here's the sad story in pictures (King difficulty IIRC). I know that I'm not a very good player, but still miles above the AI.

In this picture you can see that the AI is showing its plans for invasion. It's turn 341, war has not yet been declared. IIRC they're waiting there for a couple of turns already and I have tried to bring in at least an additional rifleman. The rest of the army is still en route. Their rifleman doesn't sit in a dangerous, but rather a nasty position.


On turn 343 the Iroquois finally declare war after waiting another turn purposelessly next to my shore. Strange however, none of their units land on my shore. Their rifleman has other plans and probably goes for the iron and gold mines.


Turn 344 and the Iroquois are playing sitting duck: They don't attack, they don't retreat, they just do nothing. And their riflemen just randomly moves around and this time moved onto an open field to make an easy target... hmmm. Artificial... yes... intelligence... no


T345 my support arrives, his units still undecided on what to do and his rifleman not seeking any better locations.


T346 my forces are in position to "free" the Iroquois and end their stasis. Their boats were sunk quickly and I prepared for a counter attack on their island.


T354 I landed on their island trying to free the city-state of Tyre that they occupied and which was allied to me before. You would think that these two riflemen in the water should instead give me a hard time landing, but no the AI decided to embark them right before my units (my caravel quickly takes care of them).


With Tyre freed the units go for Brantford. Notice that again the AI embarks units right infront of my naval vessels and makes space for my units to surround their city. WTF is wrong with the AI embarking its units all the time?


This is the closes save game I have. It's turn T336.
Napoleon_0336 AD-1580.Civ5Save

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE FIRAXIS FIX THE AI, FIX THE AI, FIX THE AI! This is NOT fun.

[Jiks]

I've seen similar naval stupidity from the AI many times, it's almost like there is nothing in those routines at all, not even an "IF hostile naval sighted THEN land" for goodness sake.

The AI is very poor in many ways but at sea, well it's all at sea, as the saying goes.

[Martin Gühmann]

I've seen similar naval stupidity from the AI many times, it's almost like there is nothing in those routines at all, not even an "IF hostile naval sighted THEN land" for goodness sake.

The AI is very poor in many ways but at sea, well it's all at sea, as the saying goes.

Probably in those routines is more in than you think, maybe something like. If target unit is too strong than don't attack. Such an AI is actually a very complicated thing, even so they simplified the game, you can't stack, you don't have transport ships. So the AI does not need to group its units nor has it to find ships for its units, stuff that does not need to be programmed, and still it's rather an artificial stupidity. When I was fixing the CTP2 AI I saw that they messed up with grouping and sea transport, but after fixing that all those little things appeared like the unit strength was considered differently whether the unit was on a boat or not.

-Martin

[jbavon]

I guess it's a small plus that the AI actually tried to make a naval invasion... But it's absolutely horrible to encounter these flaws while playing.

You can't help but think that there is no way in hell you could ever lose a game...

[ElDonReal]

Probably in those routines is more in than you think, maybe something like. If target unit is too strong than don't attack. Such an AI is actually a very complicated thing, even so they simplified the game, you can't stack, you don't have transport ships. So the AI does not need to group its units nor has it to find ships for its units, stuff that does not need to be programmed, and still it's rather an artificial stupidity.

I think the game got more complicated actually. Not being able to move two units into the same hex creates a lot of problems in how you approach the enemy and makes formation so much more important. It can't easily protect its weak units by stacking them with a stronger one like it could in Civ4. It has to take terrain and movement into account and it has to anticipate enemy movements and firing range when planning how to maneuver such that the weakly defended units are in good position to fire, but also in good position to be shielded.

I guess it's a small plus that the AI actually tried to make a naval invasion... But it's absolutely horrible to encounter these flaws while playing.

Yes the AI is progressing only very slowly. You're right, at least it was in position to make a naval invasion. Now it just has to do it.

[Dr. A. Cula]

I have seen the AI take this step in the very first game of Civ 1 I have played: first they cleared out a beach head near one of my coastal cities, using bombers and battleships, then landed mech. inf. and occupied my cities one after another.
I also remember a similar tactic in one of my Civ 4 games: the Aztecs declare war on me, land a couple of cavalries, then I manage to sink 3 or 4 galleons on their way to my continent. They were followed by frigates, that were just 1 or 2 tiles away.
In Civ 2 the AI only used nukes when it was not on the same continent as me (and I suspect a good deal of cheating was going on), and in Civ 3 I don't remember any invasions.
Perhaps the AI needs some tweaking to adapt to the new tactics of Civ 5 and probalby even more tweaking to make it pull this kind of thing off more often.
Those 2 cases are the only ones I have seen the AI mounting a naval invasion.

[ElDonReal]

You're right, as far as I can remember naval invasion worked much better in Civ1. Certainly it took some time, but you could be sure that they'd be coming at some point and that these events were usually dangerous.

I mean, at least they landed. In this special case here the AI should have at least landed and try to hold some important positions until the siege equipment arrives or go on a pillage mission (the invasion "force" did lack power).

[gdijedi7]

I recently thumped Askia in a war (do NOT let your empire get very unhappy). He kept attacking city states and eventually went after one I was allied with. After shattering his (very unhappy) army, he sent another army south towards Washington. He landed some troops, but they never attacked. Instead of taking out my most productive city, he seemed to be going after Boston, a much less productive city, allowing me to bombard his units with my B-17s, only taking normal "you airstriked something" damage. He even marched an artillery into city bombard range.

[rah]

In civ IV, if you play aggressive AI, the AI sometimes get the naval invasion thing right. When the Fleet shows up and drops 100 units next to a city. If there aren't enough ships the force usually has too many collateral damage units and not enough other units due to the original programming that collateral units could totally kill units.

[Dinner]

I've noticed Civ5's AI loves artillery so much so that it's attacks often have 4-5 arty and just 1 or if it's lucky two infantry. You just target the infantry and then it can't take your cities but it still sits there shelling your cities so you can slowly pick off his arty as they dumbly just sit there unable to finish any city off. In my last game I had a massive sprawling empire but a total army of just 4 units (at the start of the war) yet I fended off an invasion force of around 30-40 units losing just one tiny city which I retook a few turns later. You can literally just use the city defenses to destroy most AI invasion forces so why bother paying for much of an army?

[ElDonReal]

Yes, but this isn't the thread to discuss dumb AI behavior in general. It's about naval invasions. I mean in your case it actually attacks, so you're a lucky guy already.