First Impressions of a latecomer

[Arrian]

Ok, I finally have CivV (b-day present), and have played my first game yesterday. Prince level, standard speed, small, Egypt.

I ultimately won via Space Race, which wasn't much of a race. I built some wonders but, having not played before and having not read the manual, I didn't have any sort of coherent strategy there. Same with the tech tree - for the first time in years & years I just picked techs one at a time thinking "oh, that one sounds useful." That won't last!

I fought 1 war, which I won decisively due to having a tech edge, which is how I like to roll. My Cavalry/Rifles/Cannon vs. his Knights/Muskets/Trebs. That victory, however, nearly broke my empire. I took the enemy capitol and he sued for peace: giving me every non-capitol city he owned, all his money & resources available (which seemed a bit excessive, but perhaps I really had slaughtered his whole army by that point?). I accepted. Heh, ouch. I gave away 2 of the cities (one ended up having oil which annoyed me) but was still unhappy... negative 15 or so. That took me some time to fix.

I went with Representation & Commerce social policies (and, toward the end, the commie branch... Order?). My economy was generally pretty strong. I bought the loyalties of some maritime city-states (for food at first, then coal and oil - I had none of either, despite owning half of one of the 2 continents) and ignored the rest.

I made all manner of mistakes, I'm sure, but things seemed to go pretty well for my first game. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that cities can defend themselves - no need to garrison, really - no happiness penalty like in CivIV. I had old spearmen units garrisoning cities into the modern age (and then I finally adjusted and deleted them). I remain unenthusiastic about 1UP, but I'll deal. I'm not particularly excited by the tile improvement situation either... farms, mines, trading posts and lumbermills... I miss windmills, waterwheels (yes, both are city improvements, but I like working the land) and to some degree, cottages.

The graphics are nice enough. They seem like a bit of a compromise between the CivIII (serious) and CivIV (cartoonish) approaches. I don't like the city view screen right now, but I'm sure that's mostly unfamiliarity. I haven't even *tried* messing with specialists in any way. Hah. The most I've done is buy some tiles, and assign citizens to work tiles.

I noticed something odd: a civ on the other continent telling me my units were hovering around his borders (no, I didn't have a single unit on that side of the world, including ships) and encroaching on his land (again, no). Hiawatha was off his meds, I guess.

-Arrian

[notyoueither]

Hi Arrian. Welcome aboard!

Successful war with minimal downside requires some planning. If you time it right and have managed your economy well it is not too difficult.

Having a largish gold surplus helps and being close to a tech that gives a happiness building is useful. If the war goes well and quick, buy the newly available happiness buildings as cash is available. If the war goes slowly, then you may build them the old fashioned way (hammers).

When you conquer a city, leave it as a puppet initially. For each city that you 'Occupy' you'll take a 5 happiness hit (eliminated by building Courthouse). I puppet everything and then tranistion the better one or two cities to 'mine' (occupied with a courthouse) following some sort of plan to deal with the happiness problems.

Puppets will build culture buildings (if they need to expand their borders for tiles) and happiness buildings (if you are negative or low) and cash buildings. Cash buildings tend to be their priority unless culture or happiness is an issue. Left alone, and having trade posts built for them, puppets will contribute a great deal of cash for your empire.

The other benefit of puppets is that they contribute culture for Social Policies, but they do not increase the amount of culture required for new Policies.

The AI remains a work in progress. The latest patch addressed some balance issues and added to diplomatic options as well as improving basic AI, but there are miles to go.

[MxM]

It is interesting that when I played Egypt, it was a cakewalk, may be because I have build so many wonders and starting location was good? Also Egyptian chariots that you can build without horses really rocks! Now I have selected Japan, and turned on raging barbarians and turned off "equalized start". Raging barbarians were not a problem at all for Japan, but the rest is hard. May be due to less than optimal starting location (capital city is mostly on the sea, only few land hexes) or I do not know why, but even after successful first war I am still behind others in science, because they all have those research agreements, and they do not like me because they think that I am militaristic (duh! I am Japan, one of the best military power in the game, so I have to use this in my advantage). Any way, I am in prolonged second war, and I am at technological disadvantage! It is hard! Though, the tactical AI is stupid and I am wining the war despite of being technologically behind (I have cannons, AI has artillery).

So, I guess it depends in this game, and sometimes you get it easy, and sometimes quite hard...

[Arrian]

Hi Arrian. Welcome aboard!

Successful war with minimal downside requires some planning. If you time it right and have managed your economy well it is not too difficult.

Having a largish gold surplus helps and being close to a tech that gives a happiness building is useful. If the war goes well and quick, buy the newly available happiness buildings as cash is available. If the war goes slowly, then you may build them the old fashioned way (hammers).

When you conquer a city, leave it as a puppet initially. For each city that you 'Occupy' you'll take a 5 happiness hit (eliminated by building Courthouse). I puppet everything and then tranistion the better one or two cities to 'mine' (occupied with a courthouse) following some sort of plan to deal with the happiness problems.

Puppets will build culture buildings (if they need to expand their borders for tiles) and happiness buildings (if you are negative or low) and cash buildings. Cash buildings tend to be their priority unless culture or happiness is an issue. Left alone, and having trade posts built for them, puppets will contribute a great deal of cash for your empire.

The other benefit of puppets is that they contribute culture for Social Policies, but they do not increase the amount of culture required for new Policies.

The AI remains a work in progress. The latest patch addressed some balance issues and added to diplomatic options as well as improving basic AI, but there are miles to go.

Heya NYE, thanks for the info. How does one transition from puppet to "yours?" I haven't tried puppetizing yet, probably b/c I never liked vassals in CivIV.

Game #2 is in the industrial age. This time I'm Darius of Persia, same settings. I have fought two wars - both against Elizabeth. The first time, she attacked me (you were wrong to trust me! she says, noting my weak-as-hell so-called army). She stole a worker and killed a warrior, IIRC. For this she ended up losing York. Then, later, she "noticed my military buildup" and I figured I'd just kill her off fair & square, which I did, even though I hadn't planned on launching the attack just yet. I'm actually 2nd place in score in that game (to Alexander) but my economy is really strong (I have 12 cities. 10 are mainland, 2 are island. Every one of them is coastal) and I think I've opened up a tech lead so I should be fine.

I haven't noticed any irrational behavior from the AI (towards me, anyway) in this game. They all went from Friendly to Guarded or Hostile after I smushed Elizabeth, which is rational if annoying. The result is they all expect me to give them 5-to-1 trades. So yeah, no trades are happening. I do have a research agreement or two, but they're for so long I forget about them.

-Arrian

[notyoueither]

Puppets contribute science, gold, and culture to your civ, just like any other city.

You have to pay upkeep for their buildings and they add to unhappiness like a normal city, but they do not increase the amount of culture your civ needs to adopt new policies (thiis is why some people love puppets).

Puppets do not count as a city that needs a building for the purposes of National Wonders. ie. every city needs a library to build the National College, but puppets don't count.

You do not control what a puppet builds and you cannot buy buildings or units in a puppet (this is the downside). The city governor runs the puppet. The gov will not build units at all, and will not build wonders, national wonders, or buildings that require resources (factories). They are not supposed to build military unit buildings at all, but I've seen the odd stable. The gov controls worker and specialist allocation (they use merchants a lot). You can take hexes away from a puppet to be used by a nearby city of your own under your control, but I have not figured out yet how to add hexes back to a puppet.

An occupied city is a normal city in every way, except each occupied city adds an additional five to your unhappiness. The additional five unhappiness is eliminated when you complete a courthouse in that city. I call it 'mine' because at that point it is identical to any city I settled myself, although the courthouse costs 3gpt (it cost 5 pre .135 patch).

I should start a thred on this. Puppets are an interesting, and very profitable part of the game.

[notyoueither]

I haven't noticed any irrational behavior from the AI (towards me, anyway) in this game. They all went from Friendly to Guarded or Hostile after I smushed Elizabeth, which is rational if annoying. The result is they all expect me to give them 5-to-1 trades. So yeah, no trades are happening. I do have a research agreement or two, but they're for so long I forget about them.

It is possible to manage relations with other civs and keep on good terms despite smushing the odd bad fellow, at least prepatch. I am still working on how to do this post .135

My sense post patch is a bit like playing civ under the Terror. An idea for another thread.

[Arrian]

Ok, so I tried another game. Darius again, standard size this time, all other settings the same.

This time the AI behavior has me somewhat miffed. I share a continent with 4 civs: Russia, Germany, Japan and Mongolia. They all dislike me. Russia is hostile, the others are guarded. I have fought none of them. I understand Mongolia & Japan's stance. They border me. We were competing for land. Though I actually ended up pretty small & feeling squeezed, I did grab a city site or two they probably wanted. Japan in particular did the whole "we demand you not settle near us" and then claimed that I later did (whereas I see that city site as squarely within my "natural" territory). Fine, ok. That makes sense. But Germany and Russia? They're nowhere near me and I've never done anything but trade with them (when I could). Russia evidently hates me because I'm a warmongering threat to civilization. She calls me up now and again and lectures me about the strong beating up the weak. I've been denounced. Everyone informs me that "your friends saw fit to denounce you." What friends?

This, because I took out 1 city-state (that no-one was protecting or allied with)?

Meanwhile, those four have been fighting intermittant wars against one another and various city-states for the last 500+ years. I guess they're not warmongering threats to civilization because they don't actually accomplish anything. Not one city has fallen. Hell, even when three of the four civs were all at war with 1 city-state, nothing happened.

Speaking of which, is there a CiV equivalent of the old F4 screen? How in the hell am I supposed to know who is at war with who? It changes constantly, and I don't really feel like scrolling through the notifications log to try and find the DoWs and Peace deals.

Anyway, I'm doing ok. I have 6 mainland cities and 1 island city. 4 of the mainlanders are "core" cities and 2 are never going to be powerhouses. I also have the 1 city-state puppet (yeah, that's useful). I've met and befriended some overseas civs (France and Siam, IIRC). My tech level seems roughly on par w/the AI, though it's hard to tell. My worry is that I have no coal, and I don't see a city-state who does.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Thinking more generally about the game...

The tile yields are really weak, and the bonus tiles don't add much. Therefore, it seems to me that GAs are more powerful than in CivIV. I find myself pining for CivIV's bonus tiles. Mmm, grassland river cows... mmm.

Production seems to take FOREVER. Growing cities big enough to be powerhouses takes forever, even with graneries and multiple maritime city-state allies. Even with Civil Service. Better, therefore, to go with more tightly packed, smaller cities? Seems to be the case. I've been going with wide-spaced cities & vertical growth and it's not really working terribly well. The downside is probably that those smaller cities will be even weaker production-wise than my larger ones. But not *much* weaker. Go for 1-2 big cities and have the rest be size 7s or so.

I need to micromanage my cities. Thus far, I haven't. I mean, I've bought particular tiles. I have, once or twice, switched a citizen from one tile to another. I need to get into the habit of assigning specialists, switching from growth to production and back, and stuff like that.

-Arrian

[Zoetstofzoetje]

I should start a thred on this. Puppets are an interesting, and very profitable part of the game.

There should be a limit to the amount of cities you can puppetize. In my last game I had 4 'real' cities and 20 puppets (the other cities on my continent). I made 600 gpt and won a diplomatic victory, mainly by sucking my puppets dry. And the more puppets you have, the more they are practically worth on an expanding scale. It's almost a perpetuum mobile. The more you have, the easier it becomes to steamroll. Although that applies to Civ5 in general, because population=science=money=production, balanced only through happiness. I'd almost become envious of the old corruption system again. Almost..

Perhaps a 'stability' factor can be introduced to balance the usefulness of puppets. E.g., 1 puppet per core city. If you have more than that, puppets that are furthest away from your core cities will spawn rebels, no matter how happy your empire. Example: USSR and its dissolution. Dutch empire and its dissolution. English empire and its dissolution. Spanish emp... you get the gist, n'est-ce pas?

Or: puppets are money horses that suffer from corruption based on distance to palace/'real' cities and/or proportion to core empire. The examples above apply.

And I maintain my position that conquered cities with courthouses should dissolve into 'real/normal' cities after e.g. 75 turns. Cultural absorption, so to speak.

[Jaybe]

Speaking of which, is there a CiV equivalent of the old F4 screen? How in the hell am I supposed to know who is at war with who?

The 3rd tab (Global Politics(?)) in the F4 is the best there is. At least with .135 it is better laid out and colored so you can read it easier.

[Arrian]

Oh, thanks Jaybe. Stupidly, I hadn't actually hit F4 yet! @ me. I was just clicking on stuff I could see on the main screen.

-Arrian

[Jaybe]

Oh, thanks Jaybe. Stupidly, I hadn't actually hit F4 yet! @ me. I was just clicking on stuff I could see on the main screen.

-Arrian

In that case, also note that F3 (not 5) is military advisor, with F5 being SP. If you want to locate a unit though, use the units widgit in the upper left corner (centering on a selected unit there works, as the F3 does NOT).

The diplomacy widgit in upper right corner provides different some info than F4 (such as all the scores in one handy location & CS requests), so be sure to check it out.

[MxM]

Everyone informs me that "your friends saw fit to denounce you." What friends?

Friends is anyone with whom you have made "declaration of friendship" in the past, even if you are not currently "friendly" with them. Lying to friends and demanding things or not responding to their demands is a big no, if you want to keep them friends for long time (though they themselves are not shy to ask you for resources). Once a single friend denounce you for lying and or something else, everyone starts hating you. You really have to be a saint in this game to have your neighbor to be friend by the end of the game. The situation is worsen by the fact that you manage to upset them without knowing it, for example, it is not obvious which city state they consider in their influence (they do not have to be allied to that SC), or which hex is considered to be "too close" to their cities for you to found your city.

While I like general direction of diplomacy in Civ V, there should be less guess work on your part and better interface that gives you more understanding what leads to what and why.

[Arrian]

In my newest game (prince, standard across the board, Persia again), I once again cannot seem to make nicey-nice with my neighbors.

There are three AIs on my continent. 1 is hostile and the other 2 are guarded (though to be be fair, one of those 2 was friendly for quite some time). We all share borders, so some of it is coveting my land or asking me not to settle near them and then I did (sort of). One of them attacked me and got smacked down. He's guarded in part b/c of that war (which he started). The hostile civ is the one that thinks I'm trying to win the way they are... not that I know what that means, as I'm just playing w/o a distinct victory strategy (probably space race, but I'm open to other possibilities). Also we've competed for the affections of a certain city-state.

Once again, it's the civs on the other continent with whom I have good relations - being able to sail the oceans is really important for me as that's when I can get some decent luxury trades going.

Just before I saved & went to bed, the civ that had previously attacked me (Mongols) asked me to go to war with them against the hostile civ (English), which I was getting ready to do anyway (she has all the coal on the continent, hates me, and I now have a tech edge with rifles/cannon). I asked for 10 turns to prepare, though I really only need about 2 - just some unit positioning. Since it was 0 or 10, I went 10. So maybe things will get more interesting. The only warfare on the continent so far was my fairly minor war against the Mongols (I repulsed his invasion and took 1 city) and the Mongols taking out 1 city-state.

My intent in this game was to pack my cities tighter, but the land didn't really call for it as much this time. I had a lot of space, and there were these sweet super-city sites, so I went that route instead. I managed the near perpetual golden age thing and I've managed to set up better production this time around (mainly by using more farms/mines and fewer trading posts). My economy is humming along fine. I've been manually assigning specialists, though I find that I don't use many at this point - prefering growth & production. I'm at something like +40 happiness right now, so growth is good. At times, though, I've been smart enough to assign some specialists to prevent growth from pushing me into serious unhappiness, so I'm making progress.

I have checked out the F4 screen, which seems fine.

-Arrian