Late Stage AI Armies and Workers

[pdxsean]

I've run into a pretty interesting phenomenon in my current game. The USA and I have basically split our island over the years. He's taken over three civs, I took over the other three, and we both have had powerful empires.

In the late industrial age he invaded me with a massive army left over from his conquests. The tide of battle turned and I have been making steady progress eating up (and mostly razing) his former puppet states.

Now that I have killed all of his invading forces, he seems to have nothing left. I have a couple of ships watching the roads leading to my armies, and there aren't any new units coming through. However he has a crapload of workers running around and doing whatever.

So here's where I think we've run into a block for the AI. In the Renaissance, USA could afford a massive army and tons of workers to process their conquests. The industrial revolution comes, and railroads tell the AI to build more workers to build their rail system.

Then I come in, take away 1/4 of their land and tax base. My theory is that the USA is now running a huge budget deficit and can't afford to build any new units (maybe they're all building gold?) and is basically posing no defense.

Shouldn't the AI have some subroutine to determine that it's time to start deleting workers? Or am I just reading too much into this... keeping in mind, I'm only looking at the results of fifteen or twenty turns of this war, but it seems like they should have been able to churn out a few new riflemen or something in this time. Maybe they're holding them in reserve.

[pdxsean]

The very next turn he did bring up an artillery to a border town. Token defense FTW!

And the next turn I go to discuss peace and see he has about 1000 gold and 180 some per turn. So much for that theory... I should stop expecting the AI to act like a human.

Also it would be nice if I could just delete this entire thread since it's pretty pointless now. Thinking out loud I guess.

[Dinner]

I've run into this as well. Once you take a couple of cities from a large civ they basically stop sending armies out which I guess is because they can no longer afford them due to all of their workers which don't get deleted for some reason.

[Hauldren Collider]

You should be able to send a unit into hibernate and then reactivate for a lump sum of gold.

[pdxsean]

Yeah I'd like to see a hibernate/mothball option for both units and buildings. Maybe cut their maintenance in half while out of action or something. As it is now, it really makes you think about your economy and whether you'll really need what you're building when it's built. Going to war can be a tricky balancing act if you start a musketeer that won't be built for 20 years. Hard to know if you'll need backup then so you have to take a calculated risk. And of course a peacetime standing army is also part of the challenge, in that you have to balance the expenses versus being vulnerable to neighbors.

[Hauldren Collider]

As I see it, there are a few glaring problems with the economy:

1. No sliders to adjust culture, science, etc which means you can't adjust your focus easily.
2. No means to mothball things that require maintenance.

The idea behind eliminating stacks of doom was to make it so that war didn't consist almost entirely of rock-paper-scissors and whoever had a bigger economy. But these two issues compound on each other to make it seem as though war is still mostly a function of economics.

I still haven't played more than five hours of the game according to steam, and I'm not that great a Civ player, so I remain very open to reinterpretation but I think these issues need to be addressed.

[pdxsean]

I was pretty upset about #1 but as I play more I realize that it's a real improvement to lose the slider. You really have to think of how everything you do will effect the economy, from every building you do or don't build to every tile your workers improve. I'm jotting down some ideas for blogs to go into more details, but over the last few days the new economic system has really won me over and I don't miss the slider too much.

One thing that really helps is the citizen specialization options in the city screens, you can sort of nudge the slider that way by changing city focus to science, gold, etc.

BTW I believe that the default specialization is lousy and basically all of my cities specialize in production unless I'm in an economic crisis.

[yin26]

With 1000 gold and 180 per turn, clearly the AI could rush some units. The pace of production is also a known discussion so that even if the AI switched to producing a lot of units, they would take a long time to produce. So if it's not rush buying and if production is slow, pretty much the moment you gain an advantage, you're likely never to lose it, and you cascade toward a steamroll.

[pdxsean]

I could have walked through his entire territory if I wasn't running low on happiness and gold. So I pulled back and made peace. Much to my dismay, he just rebuilt his army and brought in a huge invasion force fifty years later. Now I'm on the getting steamrolled end... frustrating as I'd almost finished the Apollo Project and he took the city I was building it in.

I guess the moral of that story is, Civ V is hard.

[yin26]

The moral, actually, is that you should have ignored the gold and unhappiness! For the gold issue, taking cities will earn you some plunder (as will pillaging liberally). You could also sell off some luxuries or even strategic resources if needed just to keep from losing units. And the unhappiness is basically meaningless during that phase of a war. Let it drop and drop (yes, your army will become 'less effective' with unhappiness) as long as you're pushing forward and defeating the enemy. Once THAT'S done you can get your econ and happiness back in order.

Oh, and it helps to be building roads toward your enemy all the while so that you have trade routes setup ASAP, ideally the very next turn after taking the city. This can make a huge difference in keeping your gold in shape while expanding.

P.S. Excellent news about the AI rebuilding!

[MxM]

As I see it, there are a few glaring problems with the economy:

1. No sliders to adjust culture, science, etc which means you can't adjust your focus easily.

That's not a problem. That's a challenge to solve in the game. It is a new difficult part of the game. Having slider is easier.

[pdxsean]

The moral, actually, is that you should have ignored the gold and unhappiness!

Well, you're right about that. Lesson learned.

I couldn't unload any more of my resources, everyone else in the world is broke except my enemy the USA and the German juggernaut on the other continent who needed nothing (we traded luxuries, he had more than me). Will he buy resources he doesn't need? I've never tried to sell stuff he already had.

After the war ended I kept most of the army I had been fighting with, but the maintenance started causing huge deficits. At the beginning of the war (maybe 10 turns after railroad discovery) I was running a surplus (wihout golden age) of about 100 per turn. After the war ended (50 turns or so) with LESS units and more cities, I was breaking even. I then continued to delete workers as my deficits grew, and basically had a balanced budget up until I was invaded. By then my standing army was obsolete... well, it is never pretty to lose the game in the modern age.

Whatever happened to retiring? I mean, it's all quitting just the same, but I do miss being able to retire and have something on the score board.

[dregor]

I don't miss the sliders. I do wish there was a more robust trade route system tho.

[Hauldren Collider]

That's not a problem. That's a challenge to solve in the game. It is a new difficult part of the game. Having slider is easier.

Next they're going to make you solve a sudoku puzzle before building a unit. That will also be a new difficult part of the game.

As far as I can tell there are still ways to effectively change the output of your civ, it is just per-city and tedious. So in terms of new and challenging, the only difference is that the user interface ****ing sucks.