Songhai Trait - Melee in Ocean? 0.o

[Coeur]

So I have been playing civ5 on and off for a little bit, and while at first it seemed to me that the English were going to be the rulers of the sea, I finally took notice of Songhai's special trait... Or rather the last bit of it.

"Embarked units can defend themselves."

Does this mean what I think it does? I.e. There is really no need for a navy? If you can just send your cavalry "charging" across the ocean with impunity? Because hey, if a ship attacks, you can Lance it?? If so, it sounds like it could be a real game winner on maps like islands... or am I missing something important?

[pdxsean]

Embarked units move super slow. 3 moves per turn, where ships move 5-8 or more per turn. Also they only have a 1 hex line of sight while ships have four or six or whatever giant space they can see.

Don't know how well the embarked Songhai fight exactly but either way a normal ship could avoid them easily it seems.

[Coeur]

Ah you're right of course, but what seems worrying is the speed at which they could send an invading army across the water. Consider if you were a different faction and wanted to send... six units across (which seems a little small), since each can be killed by a single boat stepping on it, you would need an adequate defence. Minimum three ships, though even that will cost you a few units. My point is that the game is generally won or lost, on land. And on an islands, or continents map, controlling the ocean is usually a fantastic advantage, in that you can limit who gets to MAKE that landing.

But Songhai... unless there is an "embarkment combat penalty" which i havent noticed. They can just "walk" an army across the ocean as though it were forest. Admittedly getting bombarded by ships, but it would save you making your own escort ships / money to purchase them. And could also mean on an islands / continents map, you wouldnt even need to MAKE any boats.

Except scouting ones, ofc. Going to be mighty embarassing if your 1 LoS, 1 movement embarked unit gets lost. I'm not crying about balance, btw. I just thought I'd mention this, see if anyone found the idea interesting, since I at first didn't think Songhai were that good... Their UB seems like an under-powered Egyptian Burial tomb...

This faction could be very solid on water maps... their other bonus, triple barbarian gold, is just a bonus.

[Nikolai]

Normally, embarked units die the moment an enemy ship enters the tile it stands on. The ship doesn't even use up its attack for that turn, so it can move on to the next unit too... Songhai, as you know, has defence for embarked units. I do not remember how strong the defence is, so the following is a bit shady, but I think the defence value equals a warrior. At least initially.

[pdxsean]

This faction could be very solid on water maps... their other bonus, triple barbarian gold, is just a bonus.

I agree with you there, they'd be pretty awesome on water maps. Makes me think of the pirate faction from SMAX. Ah, sea colonies...

Anyway, it's fun to find the sort of particular ways to make each faction shine, isn't it? The only drawback with each game taking so long is that I can only try one new faction every few days.

[Hauldren Collider]

Can you stack embarked units? Haven't played enough to test yet.
And are there transports of any kind?

[Coeur]

Hmm that depends doesn't it. I shall try tomorrow. You can stack a single non-com, with a com... So I'm sure an embarked worker and a ship would... but it depends whether the game classes an embarked military as one. Even if it does, it means you need the same amount of ships as units you're attacking with.

Then again, I'm going on about how Songhai let's you avoid making a navy.... but if you do, I guess it means the enemy has no trouble embarking to you either lol. Guess you'd want to make a defensive navy regardless...

[MxM]

So I have been playing civ5 on and off for a little bit, and while at first it seemed to me that the English were going to be the rulers of the sea, I finally took notice of Songhai's special trait... Or rather the last bit of it.

"Embarked units can defend themselves."

Does this mean what I think it does? I.e. There is really no need for a navy? If you can just send your cavalry "charging" across the ocean with impunity? Because hey, if a ship attacks, you can Lance it?? If so, it sounds like it could be a real game winner on maps like islands... or am I missing something important?

I think the army of Sonnghai on water is as usefull as an army of workers on land against horsed archers. Sure, workers have their health, but they die easy.

[Proteus_MST]

I think the army of Sonnghai on water is as usefull as an army of workers on land against horsed archers. Sure, workers have their health, but they die easy.

Well, if the defense results in the attacking ship having to use up its one attack/turn, where otherwise it wouldn´t do so, it definitely sounds useful...
like the difference between an attacking ship being able to destroy just one transport per turn of your huge armada, compared to the same ship being able to destroy your whole armada within this turn

[Coeur]

Just did a quick check in-game. You CANNOT stack a military escort ship, with a military embarked unit.... You're going to have to defend them by actively seeking out the enemy navy. Or playing Songhai. Not sure if I read MxM's post correctly. It WOULD be like a horse archer vs worker,... but only if you mean the horse archer shooting the worker over a few turns...

Embarked songhai units actually fight, with their own Strength value it seems... Enemy navy can ofc bombard you, and I don't know if embarked songhai units can "attack" (id hope for balance that they can only defend)... But even then, bombarding takes time, and simply surviving a bombard is 2exp... if it takes too long they might just level and choose full health again.