Your Favorite Wonder?

[pdxsean]

I've never been much of a wonder builder. As long as I can remember, every time I would try to build the Pyramids or Hanging Gardens, an AI player would beat me to it (usually with two turns to go) so I tend to forget about the early wonders. In the later stages I'll gobble up wonders if I have a big tech lead and they're interesting.

Many of the wonders have had their benefits flattened out in V, which I like, but there are still some that are very powerful. What's your favorite?

Mine would be the Sistine Chapel. +33% culture is a big boost that goes through to the end of the game. It arrives at a time when social policies are getting more and more expensive. It's also relatively expensive and has a prerequisite of Acoustics... this makes it easier to grab from the AI, imo.

[Snotty]

i can see the sistine chapel being an essential beeline wonder if you are chasing a cultural victory. That and one of the social policies in the freedom branch that gives you 100% culture in cities that have a wonder.

I dont have a 'must have wonder' yet but im sure I will

[Nikolai]

Not sure which is my favourite, but the Angkor Wat, which gives you 75% cheaper tile aqusition(not money but culture) is much more powerful than probably most people understand. It means your borders soon covers the map like the plague! If it would take f.ex. 12 turns to get a new tile by culture, it suddenly only takes 3 turns!

[me_irate]

Pyramids seem very strong. On the face of them they are about the price of 2.5 workers and double the speed of your workers allowing two workers to do the job of four basically. That sounds about balanced with the considerable shield outlay, possibility you might not build it first, etc. What I think makes this wonder a bit OP is the fact that you can't stack workers. In past civs you could put the two workers together to build things twice as fast. With pyramids, you can have a plantation built in four turns after discovering calendar instead of eight. Or an iron mine four turns sooner. A new town? Send a worker and upgrade tiles faster than it can grow. Or whatever. It doesn't sound like much, but adds up to a big advantage when you consider over the course of the game, and the fact if you build more than two workers you are far better off building the pyramids. Three workers could do the job of six, or four could do the job of eight, etc.

Another powerful early wonder is the Great Library. I have been experimenting around with it. On king I can hit the civil service slingshot about half the time so far. The main problem is I get beat about half the time. Big risk, but huge possible reward getting a tech that gives +1 food on all river tiles, bumping you into another tech era (and all the benefits with that), a strong unit (pikeman), and a good wonder (50% more golden age length).

Those are two pretty strong ones that I have played around with quite a bit so far.

[pdxsean]

The Angkor Wat, which gives you 75% cheaper tile aqusition(not money but culture) is much more powerful than probably most people understand. It means your borders soon covers the map like the plague!

I agree. I've tried to build that every game but the AI beats me to it every time. It would be my favorite if it weren't also the AI's favorite. In my current game I'm building railroads but my first four cities still have gaps in their cultural borders (admittedly, they're mostly six hexes apart).

[pdxsean]

Pyramids seem very strong.

I agree. Not only does it speed up workers, it also allows you to have less workers which frees up money for military units or city buildings. The pyramids would be the wonder to have when you start building your railroad network. Not only can you get the railroads built faster, but you can do it with less workers when the financial crunch really sets in.

Another powerful early wonder is the Great Library.

I tried very hard in my current game to get the Great Library, and I researched Philosophy just so I could go for Civil Service. Literally two turns from completion, the AI beat me to it. So not only did I miss out on the wonder, I researched Philosophy when I should have been focusing on Iron Working or Construction which I delayed to get it.

The early wonders are such a risk for me, because you're losing out on valuable production when you have limited resources. Since the AI seems to love the great library as much as we do, it really makes it a gamble to go for it... add in the research diversion and it's a pretty high cost.

Have you managed to hit the civil service slingshot yet? I was thinking about it, and it sounds like it might be as much a headache as a benefit. Getting three or four additional food per city would really crush your happiness numbers in short order. That early in the game it's difficult to have a happiness infrastructure so I'm not even sure it's worth going for. TBH I tend to restrict the growth of my cities once they hit 5 population until I have a solid economy going.

[me_irate]

I tried very hard in my current game to get the Great Library, and I researched Philosophy just so I could go for Civil Service. Literally two turns from completion, the AI beat me to it. So not only did I miss out on the wonder, I researched Philosophy when I should have been focusing on Iron Working or Construction which I delayed to get it.

The early wonders are such a risk for me, because you're losing out on valuable production when you have limited resources. Since the AI seems to love the great library as much as we do, it really makes it a gamble to go for it... add in the research diversion and it's a pretty high cost.

Have you managed to hit the civil service slingshot yet? I was thinking about it, and it sounds like it might be as much a headache as a benefit. Getting three or four additional food per city would really crush your happiness numbers in short order. That early in the game it's difficult to have a happiness infrastructure so I'm not even sure it's worth going for. TBH I tend to restrict the growth of my cities once they hit 5 population until I have a solid economy going.

I'm about 50/50 on it on king difficulty. If China is in the game, I seem to lose. I lost it twice to china. Not sure who was the builder on the third.
Been playing large size maps too. More civs probably greatly reduce the chance of hitting it. Though I haven't played enough games to know that for sure. Currently I'm 3/6 on king difficulty hitting it. I was specifically testing if this was a good strategy, so I quit each of those games shortly after getting it.

My main motivation is that I have found river hills + farm + civil service to be pretty decent production/food balance in the early game to get new towns building quickly (the choice is 2 food or one production, so I farm all the river hills/plains). This also allows me to build more trading posts on the plains not on a river and mines on the hills not by the river and provides for a decent economy.

India is also my primary civ so far so the extra food isn't nearly as painful as it would be for other civs. This strategy is probably best used for them, though obviously anyone would be benefitted from more production due to having to use less farms.

My conclusion is that 50/50 beeline isn't nearly good enough on king difficulty and I don't feel its worth the production to just pick up a normal tech such as philosophy, and even then, there is a good chance you won't finish it in time. If we take civil service off the table, then the mids are pretty easily my favorite early game wonder. So I don't think the great library will be part of my king + strategy going forward. For prince and lower though it should be a great strategy.

The way I usually get it is:

1. Tech order: Masonry first since the mids are pretty nice, and the marble is a nice bonus if I have it. Then I tech animal husbandry (since you need that for trapping prereq and it lets you see horses). After husbandry I go all the way to philosophy, then finally back to trapping (would research trapping earlier if I had something that needed traps though).

2. My build order is pretty easy since you have to wait awhile to get the needed techs. I'll build worker -> mids until pop 4 -> settler -> back to mids until I get writing, immediately switch to library and cross your fingers no one else went for it right away. When I lose it I lose it about 5 turns in, so far I haven't lost it later on. Basically it seems if it doesn't come early, no one is prioritizing it, and you will probably get it. I have also got the mids after the GL every time I got the GL. It seems the AI doesn't like the mids as much as I do.

Though again, my sample size is still extremely small. I'm going to start noting when the AI builds the GL. That should give me a decent idea how viable it is without having to test it out over and over.

[pdxsean]

Sounds like you put a lot of research into it! You make a great point about India and how they could really take advantage of the GL/Civil Service slingshot. That would be huge for them... their happiness bonus is absolutely one of the better SP traits.

I'm also playing large maps (I tried huge but the late-game between-turn time topped 120 seconds... too much for me) but I tend to do 10 or more total civs, so that might be why I keep getting scooped. I plan on trying a less-than-recommended number of civs on the next go round so maybe I'll get a few more wonders that way.

[Snotty]

Im not sure what you mean by 'mids' Mr Irate. Are you refering to middle of the tech tree wonders?

edit: ah, now i get it. pyramids, right?

[Nikolai]

I agree. I've tried to build that every game but the AI beats me to it every time. It would be my favorite if it weren't also the AI's favorite. In my current game I'm building railroads but my first four cities still have gaps in their cultural borders (admittedly, they're mostly six hexes apart).

I just got it in my current game. Playing as France, with only 3 cities. No wars so far, and I want to keep it that way.

[pdxsean]

Oh, France with the Angkor Wat? Talk about a dream scenario.

I'm loving France's special units, they really come into play at a great time. Their combo of traits/units spans almost the whole game, it's sweet.

[Nikolai]

Yeah, culturally I'm good. But I have a huge problem: My science is piss poor ATM.