Automating?

[jobe]

I don´t think I have enough knowledge of programming to contribute something useful here. I imagine it being very hard to achieve. In any case one would need an excellent human player supervising such a project in order to define first what exactly the best way is in each circumstance. And what happens when development is disturbed by another player? Can the AI adapt to that?

I know what role each and every single half-move of each worker played in civ4 mp in ALL setups, no matter whether teamer, ffa, cton, duel, ironman and no matter in which era the game was started. I can hardly imagine programming an AI that can do what a (skilled) human did there, especially under pressure. I assume it would be easier in a peaceful situation - though then you´d still have to define what exactly the workers are supposed to achieve. There is no recipe, sometimes you have to cottage hills next to a river...
Looking at how many bonuses the AI has to get in civ4 on deity to be able to put up a fight against a human, I don´t see workers being controlled by it as well as by a human.

[binTravkin]

Yes, I was assuming use in SP or not high-level MP (alas one played more for fun, not competitiveness).

I am waiting for SDK to see what can we do in this field.
I have limited C++ knowledge, but for me automation that actually can be relied upon would add big value to the game.

I am also waiting for the usual calculations by people like Vel, since they often lay out the math and define what would an efficient worker do.

[jobe]

Civ5 doesn´t allow for worker micro nearly as much as civ4 did and one needs less workers in general, so you might enjoy that

[pdxsean]

I kind of figured you MP guys would be all about automating. I'm glad to know that isn't the case, I was worried when I give it a shot I'd fall way behind due to micromanaging my workers.

[jobe]

I kind of figured you MP guys would be all about automating. I'm glad to know that isn't the case, I was worried when I give it a shot I'd fall way behind due to micromanaging my workers.

Nothing in MP is automated - on a higher level .
You´ll have plenty of time for everything once you get used to it a little, should take only a couple of games depending on your previous experience.

In civ5 you´ll have much less units and workers to move, but have to move them separately because stacking is gone. So the overall number of moves to make should be about the same.

[Zoetstofzoetje]

does the shift-multiple-orders key still work? that one's a life saver.

[jobe]

does the shift-multiple-orders key still work? that one's a life saver.

No. There is a special menu to add stuff to the queue within the normal production assigment menu. It´s no longer "one" menu, but two different within one "assign production / purchase stuff / queue stuff into production" menu.

[MxM]

I don´t think I have enough knowledge of programming to contribute something useful here. I imagine it being very hard to achieve. In any case one would need an excellent human player supervising such a project in order to define first what exactly the best way is in each circumstance. And what happens when development is disturbed by another player? Can the AI adapt to that?

I know what role each and every single half-move of each worker played in civ4 mp in ALL setups, no matter whether teamer, ffa, cton, duel, ironman and no matter in which era the game was started. I can hardly imagine programming an AI that can do what a (skilled) human did there, especially under pressure. I assume it would be easier in a peaceful situation - though then you´d still have to define what exactly the workers are supposed to achieve. There is no recipe, sometimes you have to cottage hills next to a river...
Looking at how many bonuses the AI has to get in civ4 on deity to be able to put up a fight against a human, I don´t see workers being controlled by it as well as by a human.

There is no question that at least in Civ IV experienced human player is better than AI, but is it fun? I mean how many games is it entertaining to command an army of 10 or more workers and each "half move" micro them. It is uber tedious and ridicules. NOT my idea of fun at all. Even one full game without automation is bad, but repeat it over and over? Nah.

(Disclaimer: I understand that people are different and some like this uber micro, but I think it is rarety and I am not one of those).

So, at least from my perspective, a good game design (for me) is the one where it is easy for AI to do most of the jobs optimally, with occasional interruption from the player to get important road (like in preparation to assault) or resource.

[binTravkin]

I've been uber-microing, it is fun when you want it and have the time for it, but sometimes you just want to have some quick fun with civ and it is not really possible (at least it wasn't in civ4), because the automation AI was not just less effective than human, but quite incompetent.
If the AI is like 90% of a good human player, I think many people would just rely on the AI and enjoy the other parts of the game as it advances faster and with less work.

So, waiting for the SDK.

[Dinner]

Never, ever, ever automate because the automate pathing AI is complete garbage. In fact the pathing AI is garbage for all units. It will always trespass if it possibly can and it will normally not even explore unexplored territory and instead simply run around in circles in land you've already explored. The ****wad who wrote the pathing AI should be hanged simply for sheer incompetence.

[Sabre2th]

You're a very 'up' person, Oerdin.

[binTravkin]

Oerdin, maybe it's because of Friday and you already had some beer, but I think you're overestimating quite much.

[MxM]

Never, ever, ever automate because the automate pathing AI is complete garbage.

That depends what is your goal. If you are talking about getting absolutely the highest score possible, then I agree. If it is about having fun out of civ game, then I disagree. I think that worker automation is the single feature that made civ II from "good game" to the "greatest game ever" for me at the time. I do not find it fun to make very similar decisions 1000 time per game and then in another game, another 1000 (or probably more, actually). I do not find any fun in repetitive action.

[Snotty]

I try to make the most optimal use of my workers earlier in the game. Once the majority of my infrastructure is down I will happily let the workers look after themselves until railroads - and then they have to do as they are told again.

[pdxsean]

I never really have more than six workers at a time so controlling them manually is no big deal. If it was like IV where I had like 1.5 for each city, then it'd be a whole other story. Reconsidering the whole TP thing makes me think automating them once you've grown large might not be so bad, as they'll rework farms into TP for you. Funny how much that made me mad when I first saw it, now it sounds like something of an innovation.