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**campm@jor** · August 4, 2010, 06:15

The civs and the chosen leaders are very different from previous civ versions. Interesting, because now there are new civs to explore. But commercially I wonder if using todays great civs instead of historical ones don't make more money?

And they always wait for an expansion before the Dutch are in!

**Dinner** · August 4, 2010, 11:36

I'm sure they held back other old time favorites like the Vikings, the Dutch, the Zulu, and the Celts just to give us a reason to buy the expansion packs.

**Ming** · August 4, 2010, 12:18

Originally posted by Oerdin View Post

I'm sure they held back other old time favorites like the Vikings, the Dutch, the Zulu, and the Celts just to give us a reason to buy the expansion packs.

Ya Think

**Al B. Sure!** · August 4, 2010, 12:21

It's interesting that a game called Civilization would exclude the Sumerians and Babylonians.

More Middle East civs

four aint enough!

**Sabre2th** · August 4, 2010, 12:26

Regardless of the reasons for their choices, I like the civ list. It give a little variety, which is nice after so many games ending up next to the same old civs.

I am a bit wary about the civ-specific buildings vs. units, but I can think of a number of valid reasons why they did that.

**Dinner** · August 4, 2010, 14:43

We need the Hebrews too so we can get some early mid east scenarios going.

**Al B. Sure!** · August 4, 2010, 15:16

Originally posted by Oerdin View Post

We need the Hebrews too so we can get some early mid east scenarios going.

In the scheme of things, the Hebrews were very minor. Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Phoenicians/Carthaginians, and hell, even the Hittites should come before the Hebrews.

I just find it interesting that the creators of civilization (the Sumerians) aren't even represented in the game, nor are their immediate successors.

Although so much Middle East would suck on a real world map. Looks like real world maps will be horribly skewed against Europe and the Middle East as usual which is completely counter to history.

**wodan11** · August 4, 2010, 18:53

Actually, it wasn't the Sumerians. I saw 10,000BC, and clearly there's an earlier civilization depicted. We just don't know who they were because when their city building Pyramids was captured by barbs halfway through construction, they lost all the accumulated production and culture. In fact, they were erased from the map and from history, due to the OCC settings they were using. Go figure.

**Dinner** · August 5, 2010, 15:05

I found this over at CFC:

Special Abilities
•The Glory of Rome (Rome): +25% production towards any buildings that already exist in the Capital.
•The Great Warpath (Iroquois): Units spend only 1 Movement Point entering any tile with a Forest.
•Manifest Destiny (America): All land military units have +1 sight range, 25% discount when purchasing tiles.
•Trade Caravans (Arabia): +1 gold from each Trade Route, and Oil resources provide double quantity.
•Sacrificial Captives (Aztecs): gains Culture for the empire from each enemy unit killed.
•Art of War (China): Effectiveness and spawn rate of Great Generals increased
•Monument Builders (Egypt): +20% production towards Wonder construction.
•Sun Never Sets (England): +2 movement for all naval units.
•Ancien Regime (France): +1 culture per turn from Cities before discovering Steam Power.
•Furor Teutonicus (Germany): Upon defeating a Barbarian unit inside an encampment, there is a 50% chance you earn 25 gold and they join your side.
•Hellenic League (Greece): City-State influence degrades at half rate and recovers and twice normal rate.
•Population Growth (India): Unhappiness from number of cities doubled, Unhappiness from number of Citizens halved.

Now without knowing all the game mechanics and getting some time playing the game it's hard to tell exactly which special abilities are strong and which are weak but a few things jump out at me.

1. War path seems extremely weak especially if the Iroquois start any where without forests (desert, plains, arctic, etc...)
2. As long as Rome's capital is located in high production area then the +25% to building buildings in other cities as long as they are in the capital could be huge.
3. India's seems to be a mixed bag. Fewer cities but happier cities? If Civ5 is anything like the other civ games you win the game by getting bigger then everyone else so this ability would seem to handicap India or then help unless you're on a small map.

**Al B. Sure!** · August 5, 2010, 15:14

I find those bonuses dumb. Would the English have been seafarers if they stayed in Saxony?

It's silly that in Civ, you can play as the Indians on an island and rely heavily on your Navy but the English who could be a continental power that never builds a navy through most of the game would have a naval bonus.

What sense does it make to give the Arabs a bonus with oil if the Arab civ in a Civ game happens to be in a place where there is no oil?

Stuff like that is stupid. There is no inherent anything to any civilization. The circumstances of their environment affected their culture and their development.

I always disliked that about Civ since Civ3 when they started to add civ-specific things.

**Provost Harrison** · August 5, 2010, 16:16

I think you may have a point Albert...perhaps traits can be acquired randomly through the first two or three ages and perhaps even change depending on the nature of that civilisation in the game...

**Al B. Sure!** · August 5, 2010, 16:40

Originally posted by Provost Harrison View Post

I think you may have a point Albert...perhaps traits can be acquired randomly through the first two or three ages and perhaps even change depending on the nature of that civilisation in the game...

Or offer you the ability to select certain traits if certain conditions are met. The conditions can be widely varied and can be based on year, technologies researched, what resources are nearby, what buildings have been built in cities, proximity to enemy, etc.

For example, if you have 3 coastal cities or have built 10 ships, you can acquire the 'seafaring' trait that gives you a bonus to sea movement.

Maybe some could offer multiple options based on the same circumstances. If you share a border with 3 different civs, you can select a militant trait which might be either offensive (higher morale for units) or defensive (defensive bonus modifier for units and cheaper walls). Or maybe you could choose a diplomatic trait in the same situation and get a bonus for diplomacy. Or maybe a trade bonus and get additional trade income. Or maybe a scientific bonus representing cultural exchange. You could even tie in some civ-specific things here like maybe the Indians can not select the offensive militant option in that circumstance or the Chinese can not select the scientific bonus.

And some should be automatic and not selectable. For example, if you have X number of a certain resource in your territory, you become adept at extracting and using it so you get a bonus for that resource (like the Arab oil bonus in the game).

Some could be year or technology based. Like you could pick the industrious trait if you're one of the first two civs to acquire the industrialization technology.

I think that would make the game much more interesting. It would make the civs more dynamic and vary from game to game while keeping them constrained by the circumstances of their location and what happens over the course of the game.

**Grandpa Troll** · August 7, 2010, 00:23

Originally posted by Provost Harrison View Post

I think you may have a point Albert...perhaps traits can be acquired randomly through the first two or three ages and perhaps even change depending on the nature of that civilisation in the game...

Im with Sir Provost the Awesome One, you have valid points Albert

Grandpa Troll

**Elok** · August 7, 2010, 08:54

I think these new "unique" bonuses will, paradoxically, reduce the uniqueness of civs. Consider Civ3 or 4. Lots of civs/leaders have the Industrious trait, which yields extra production across the board. But it's a powerful bonus with large gameplay consequences. Now look at Civ5. Extra ship movement or extra trade from certain resources? Nice, but not the kind of thing that gives you an overwhelming advantage in any way.

In the place of each civ/leader having two non-unique bonuses in a unique (or close to unique) combination, you have each civ with one totally unique bonus. But since there are only so many factors at play in the game to be tweaked (science, culture, war, diplomacy...), there's inevitably some overlap. Rome and Egypt, for example, both have production bonuses, only instead of the powerful bonuses of old you have two weaker and limited ones. And to avoid "six of one, half-dozen of the other" boosts, some powers necessarily get really piddly-ass bonuses, like the Iroquois or, apparently, the Germans. In Civ3, at least, the Germans were a war machine, with all-around tougher units both from researching the better ones faster and from quicker experience. Here...if they attack a barbarian city, they might get to take over the unit they kill, and a little cash. Whee. Unless there are a lot of barbarians on the map, they're not going to get a lot of mileage out of that.

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The Civs in Civ5.

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