MoM, books and nodes

[aaglo]

Some of the most useless retorts I've got from a temple/ruin/node (i don't remember which) was a chaos mastery, when I had only one (or none - I don't really remember) chaos book.

Well, not completely useless - 2xmana from the chaos nodes...

[bakalov]

Hey, one book in chaos can mean 20 chaos spells :-) Of course if you have someone you can get them from ...
With one book you can have all common and uncommon spells - amongst them the eldritch weapon and flame blade

[aaglo]

Well, yeah, but all the neat chaos spells (read>very rare), which take otherwise a ton of mana&time to cast, are not achievable.

And this was in late game, where I was in war with everyone - so no spell trading.

And sometimes this has happened also: I play with life books, and a tough temple gives me Infernal Power retort. How retarded is that!?!?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by aaglo
Well, yeah, but all the neat chaos spells (read>very rare), which take otherwise a ton of mana&time to cast, are not achievable.

And this was in late game, where I was in war with everyone - so no spell trading.

And sometimes this has happened also: I play with life books, and a tough temple gives me Infernal Power retort. How retarded is that!?!?

At least you denied it to the enemy!

[MariOne]

heh

Actually, nodes/sites prizes are randomly determined.
If you save and reply, you would for instance always get a prisoner, an artifact and a spell from a node/site, but they would be individually different every time.

Books and retors tend to be more fixed, for instance I doubt you could get a Chaos book out of a Nature node.
But for sure you could get a different retort each time around.
I wonder if books<>retorts prizes are freely interchangeable or if a book is always a book and a retort is always a retort.

Anyway, your enemy would have got a random retort, not necessarily Infernal Power. He could have in turn got Divine Power having only Death books

[MariOne]

Addendum -
Yes, I found out that books/retorts are interchangeable as node/sites outcomes.
I did some test reloading before conquering one, and I got a Nature book around 1 time in 5 or 6 against a random retort, both from a Nature Node and from a Monster's Lair.
Then from the same SkyDrake pool I got once 2 Sorcery Books, few times 1 Book and a 1-pick retort (which once was Chaos Mastery, from a Sorcery Node), once 2 retorts, and once a Famous retort which is worth 2 picks.

Another thing I noticed, if you happen to lose a Hero in conquering the node, eventually with some Artifacts that have to find their way on the anvil, the eventual Artifact prizes you get from the node can be much more valuable, where normally from that node you'd have got some lame "below 400 crystals" ones.
In a test when losing two champions, I got the "Theodores Liberator" staff
+6attack
+20 spell skill
-4 spell save
Creature Binding x 4
or something like that
Value on the Anvil: 4550 crystals!

[Sikander]

Originally posted by MariOne
Addendum -
Yes, I found out that books/retorts are interchangeable as node/sites outcomes.
I did some test reloading before conquering one, and I got a Nature book around 1 time in 5 or 6 against a random retort, both from a Nature Node and from a Monster's Lair.
Then from the same SkyDrake pool I got once 2 Sorcery Books, few times 1 Book and a 1-pick retort (which once was Chaos Mastery, from a Sorcery Node), once 2 retorts, and once a Famous retort which is worth 2 picks.

Another thing I noticed, if you happen to lose a Hero in conquering the node, eventually with some Artifacts that have to find their way on the anvil, the eventual Artifact prizes you get from the node can be much more valuable, where normally from that node you'd have got some lame "below 400 crystals" ones.
In a test when losing two champions, I got the "Theodores Liberator" staff
+6attack
+20 spell skill
-4 spell save
Creature Binding x 4
or something like that
Value on the Anvil: 4550 crystals!

Very interesting. This practically begs to be exploited. Send a wimpy hero along with a good one, and get a great magic item.

[bakalov]

Well, this is not exactly the way it works .... The prizes from the nodes and ruins/temples/dungeons are always somewhat random - the items, the picks (books and retorts), the spells. Sometimes the levels of the spells and the types of the books can be predefined.
The fighting with different tactics, sequence of kills, and possibly the different outcome from the battle can turn the random genereator in a different state. May be it depends on how much numbers are taken from it during the battle. Anyway, fighting the battle in a different manner may wield different reward, but it is not going to be better for sure - it may be worse :-)

The fastest way I have found to get a desired reward by exploiting the save/load is to turn on the strategic combat option and attack the location with a strong army that will not lose a unit. Then try to load, fight, see reward, load fight, see reward ..... it goes very fast
and finally you will probably get what you want. This comes at a cost though - the auto combat seems to draw a lot of mana from your reserve, or you can lose a unit in this battle. Sometimes the AI loses a battle that you can win 10 of 10 times. Just make it sure that you can very easily beat the enemy and then try this tactic ...

[bakalov]

For example I used that when wanted to get chaos mastery and nature mastery simultaneously from a node that seemed to give two random picks - sometimes books, sometimes retorts ....

[aaglo]

Sometimes the strategic combat can give surprising results. Example:

I tried to take a strongly defended lair (2 gorgons, 5 war bears) with an army of 2 heroes and 4 elite slingers. Tactical combat -> I lost. Strategic combat -> I won, losing only one slinger.

[MariOne]

aaglo, this only means you must have been doing something wrong

bakalov, in general I of course agree with what you say.

You would KNOW tho that for instance the *level* of the prisoner you may find inside a node/site is preset, and presumably related to the difficulty of the node/site.
And this is not necessarily dependent on limitations on your current fame.
I was rather advanced in a game, with Fame above 60 and inside a node I had neglected to deal with before as it was on a on-tile island in the other plane, I found Brax. I reload-tested, and got Valana, Rakir, Serena, Zaldron, Bahgtru, in summary a Hero from the group with the Hire-cost of 100, and NEVER a more valuable one.

For other items there might not be the same level subdivision, or might not be enforced.
For instance, the amount of Gold and Mana you get from a given site is always fixed.
The spells you get can be divided in levels, but from the same node I could indifferently get a commom or a rare one, and could not devise any relation with how the battle went.
Books and retorts can't be truly divided in levels, their value only depends from personal preferences, the game just makes sure that you always get the same "picks value" from a given site (and I always saw it to be 1 or 2 picks)

What I intended to say is that I think with artifacts there might be something tho.
I mean, I know from the same site you can get lame ones or prized ones.
But I saw that if you get a Cannae or Pummel mace, which have a mere +1 in one or two fields, with Anvil Value of ~100/200, you can as well "randomly" get objects valued as high as 500 or even 7/800, but not objects above 1000/1200.
The same, if the average object you get in reload-testing from a node has a value between 6/700, you probaly can get objects as high as 1500, or as low as 400, but never saw a Cannae Mace get "randomly" out of THOSE nodes.

Moreso, the way the battle went obviously turns the reward generator in a different state. What I wanted to say is indeed that *in case of artifacts* this did not seem to me a "totally random" relation.
I *thought* that, within the range of variability associated with that site, I could possibly observe a significant statistical correlation, giving me preferably objects from the high-end of that range only when I had significant losses in the battle, and evend beyond that range only when I lost a Hero.

This is far from certainty, but for sure beyond the frequence where I could dismiss it as just a "random coincidence".

[MariOne]

PS:

OF COURSE, read my post in AC-General "Saving Habits" thread to know what I think about the purpose and acceptability of reloading

[MariOne]

Re: nodes and dispelling

Originally posted by Father Beast
...
but (I'm not sure about this), but I think one of the realm masteries (nature mastery, sorcery mastery, chaos mastery) will allow you to cast ANY spells in the corresponding nodes with them fizzling. i.e. with nature mastery, you can even cast sorcery spells in a nature node without them fizzling. can somebody check on that?

I've also read in the manual that squares overshadowed by the magic aura of a melded node also have some sort of dispelling power also. but since I've never had occaision to fight in one of those squares (or cast spells in one at least), I'm not sure if this actually happens.

Father Beast
1. no
2. not exactly

1. Even if you have Sorcery Mastery retort, inside a Sorcery Node your non-sorcery spells will always be subject to the dispelling power of the node. This will not mean that they will "always" fizzle anyway.
Only the Node Mastery retort makes you master of all nodes and any spell immune from dispelling in any node.

2. Regardin node auras, you see that in AND around nodes, the INFO button at bottom of combat screen is enabled (you know, the panelet with Spell, Info, Flee, Done, Auto, Wait).
Inside the node it has two icons, one for the dispelling power and one for the Aura.
Around the node, you only see the Node Aura icon, but not the dispelling.
You have simply mistook the effect, as the Aura just confers +2 Swords, Shields and Crosses to Fantastic Creatures of the Node Realm, and that is the one being effective also around nodes.
IIRC, this also affects Chaos Channeled normal units as if they were now Chaos "summoned" creatures.

[aaglo]

I didn't know about the chaos channeled units being superiorized in the chaos nodes.

But it makes sense afterall. Black channeled receive the benefits of the undead too...

aaglo, this only means you must have been doing something wrong

Umm... I didn't know I was doing something wrong. I attacked the lair several times, and I never won. Well, I'm not sure, but the slingers may have been only veterans...

[bakalov]

I have found the following dependence for the spell levels and when there can be such difference: Suppose that you have 5 chaos books and just one life. The spell from the node is preset to be rare. The first thing that the reward rolls is the spell type. If it rolls chaos then it gives you one rare chaos spell. But If it rolls life, then other thing happens - with only one life book you cannot have rare or very rare life spells. Then you get an uncommon spell instead of rare or very rare ....