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Why is Cleopatra black?!

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Heraclitus
    You see what bugs me is that they are going against such an important fact, the other stuff dosen't bother me as much.

    Making Cleopatra black makes as much sense as making Tokugawa look Italian. It is a gross rewriting of history, it turns civ 4 from a fun unrealistic game about human history to a fantasy game.

    I doidn't expect historical accuracy, but I didn't expect them to change history when it doesn't affect game play just so they can cater to American Afrocentrist lobby's.
    Very well said.


    • #47
      Originally posted by Steve7811

      It matters not whether Cleopatra is depicted as black, Mediterranean, or anything else because we have no accurate record of how she looked like. Lincoln, on the other hand, we do have pictures of him. So Firaxis made Cleopatra dark-skinned woman. How does this, in any way, hurt the gameplay?
      Incorrect, we have several depictions of how Cleopatra looked and she wasn't a black woman. Mediterranean doesn't mean anything, that is not a 'race' but a body of WATER, its not even land people can live in and it covers three continents, over twenty something countries shore lines and numerous different cultures. There have been many people in the Mediterranean since ancient times and in modern times who have fair coloring. The analysis of making Cleopatra black is as dubious as making Lincoln black is 100% correct. As a royal Greek female she was a light skinned Caucasian European looking woman, as depicted in her coins and famous busts that have been confirmed are of her. So yes we do know how she looked based upon ancient descriptions of her along with ancient coins and busts that are of her. And it matters when real historical people like her are made into something they are not because there are a lot of dummies in this world who will base their misinformed claim that Cleopatra was 'black' on dubious sources like this game. If you don't believe that, then let me remind everyone this revisionist claim, that inspires the desire to improve the self-esteem of African-Americans, originated in the 16th century - that is thousands of years and centuries after Cleopatra's death - by an ENGLISH PLAY WRITER IN HIS FICTIONAL Elizabethan PLAY who didn't know any of the genealogy or history of the Ptolemy Dynasty. Most writers who question her heritage are not even ancient writers nor historians but modern revisionists and their pseudo claims are not even based upon historical facts but dubious sources like Shakespeare of all people. Anyone reading Shakespeare's play notices he makes her more "Egyptian" then she really was, in fact when we read what the ancient sources say Cleopatra made her home just as often in Athens as she did in the very Hellenistic city of Alexandria, her culture was more Greek then Egyptian. All these modern depictions of her dressed out in Egyptian fashion is bogus, Cleopatra's fashion was Greek. We have numerous Roman writers who write about how she made Antony dress in the Greek fashion even right down to how he laced up his footwear was "Greek not Roman" way, they write. For goodness sake her dad wasn't even born in Egypt BUT in Cyprus. But we hear about how 'exotic' Cleopatra was. EXOTIC? Since when has Hellenistic Greek become "EXOTIC"? She was as "exotic" as the whites who ruled South Africa for hundreds of years were. None of her relatives who ruled Egypt for hundreds of years even bothered to learn Egyptian, they forced Greek upon the native Egyptians they ruled. Cleopatra was the first to learn Egyptian but big deal, that doesn't mean anything given the fact she also spoke over TEN OTHER LANGUAGES, all that means is that she was an ambitious woman who spoke numerous languages to boast her power. Her native language though was not Egyptian, it was Greek.

      "Even though they adopted Egyptian customs to a certain degree, the Ptolemaic kings and queens were Greek. They spoke Greek and they thought that Greek culture and peoples were better than Egyptian culture and peoples. Greek became the state language, and cities were renamed. In fact, the word "Egypt" is a Greek word (the Egyptian word is "Kmt" or Kemet). On the whole, native Egyptians occupied the lowest social positions." ~Washington State University
      Last edited by sakirov123; August 28, 2008, 11:15.


      • #48
        Hmm... no African slave trade in Col, and Cleopatra is the Black Queen.

        Anyone want to hazard a guess Firaxis just doesn't want to piss of the Black Nationalists and their leftist allies? The notion of Cleopatra as black is VERY important to the Afrocentric lobby in this country.
        To those who understand,
        I extend my hand.
        To the doubtful I demand,
        Take me as I am.


        • #49
          Originally posted by Ironwood
          Hmm... no African slave trade in Col, and Cleopatra is the Black Queen.

          Anyone want to hazard a guess Firaxis just doesn't want to piss of the Black Nationalists and their leftist allies? The notion of Cleopatra as black is VERY important to the Afrocentric lobby in this country.
          Interesting idea, in fact its scarily plausible.

          If this is true I am very disappointed at Firaxis and at the BS politically correct climate in the US that distorts truth just because its inconvenient.

          "Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows."
          Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
          The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
          The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila


          • #50
            ohhhh! I disagree that the Egyptian leader,


            • #51
              Originally posted by Heraclitus View Post
              I'm sorry I don't see how the old gameplay vs. realism comes into play here Locutus. The appearances of a leader have nothing to do with gameplay. Sure people can enjoy the game if the leader pics are pretty but that is also not covered under "gameplay". I'm very dissapointed that you have brought something like that up, when it makes no sense.

              i agree!

              I'm not arguning she should look Greek! I'm arguing she should look Egyptian (since a very tanned Greek might pass as an Egyptian). But if you think we should submit to stuff like that, why shouldn't we rewrite the civilopedia entry about oh, lets say a mongolian leader or about Islam according to what the average consol player expects to find there.