Civ3 settings to increase realism

[Explorer579]

Realism refers here to a civ3 game that simulates the history and conditions of humans on Earth! Many of us like to play a game that is realistic so we can really build our version of history of humans on Earth!

Many of the features of civ3 are not realistic. These need to be turned off or adjusted. This thread is to collect ideas from players who like realism and who want to play a realistic game. Once these ideas are presented, I will collect them in one big summary!

Again the question is: What do you do in order to play a civ3 game that is much like human conditions and has a high level of realism?

[Explorer579]

The comments in this thread can either be a "how to set the mod or game to increase realism" or an "item to add on the wish list" for Fyraxis so they can provide features/control for players to play a realistic game.

It helps if you start your email with an indication if your comment is to be added on the wish list of civ4 or is an actual setting of civ3!

[Explorer579]

Terrain Types and Realism- A Wish List

1) In civ2, rivers gave extra moving points (like roads). This makes sense. When the American west was discovered, only river basins were accessible at first. So should civ3. This supports the idea of making certain terrain types inaccessible by early units, and accessible only to advanced units.

2) What happened to the oasis concept of civ2?! I have not seen oases in civ3. I used to like them as long as you don't have too many of them. It makes it possible to have a Palmera like civilization!

3) Rocky shores tiles are needed. Even the best modern armies cannot land armies on rocky shores. Rocky shores tiles are basically mountains next to shores with the characterisitcs of inability to land on them. (With advanced technology you can parachute). I have won many wars by landing my swordmen on a mountain next to an enemy's city. Come to think of it it is not possible realistically. Can you immagine Spaniards landing on the Big Sur shores of California?!

4) There should be terrain types for very high mountains. It would be impossible or very very time consuming to build a road there. For example, i don't think there is a railroad in the Himalayah; if there is, it was built in the 20th century! Such mountains would provide natural protection for countries that have them. Only certain units could cross them.

[Explorer579]

Settling Down and Starting a Civilization - A Wish List

The history of our REAL world was governed by that of nomadic tribes (what we call barbarians in civ3). In addition, nomadic tribes attacked at different ages/eras and settled to become dominant civilizations. I mention the Arabs, the Moguls, the Germanic tribes, etc.

That is why I suggest the following regarding barbarians:
1) They should keep popping up throughout the ages in tiles that are under no border.
2) When they attack and occupy a city, they establish a civilization (one of the tribe name you mentioned) and a capital. New players in the multi-player mode can enter the game and play that small (probably week civilization).
3) These early successes (capturing the first city and settling) should be accompanied by a Golden Age and the production of a leader (to give the settling nomadic tribe a chance).

If this is done, civ4 would simulate more realistically Earth's history:
1) civilizations did not all start in 4000 BC; they popped up through the ages.
2) nomadic barbarian tribes ultimately settled and few occupied large territories and/or established a "civilization".

[Explorer579]

Civilization Specific Abilities - Setting

I turn the "Civilization Specific Ability" off when I want to play a realistic game. A civilization does not start as a religious or scientific one. The Arabs may not have become religious if it were not for their prophet Mohamad; they were not "born" religious. Things that people build, what they invent, wars, events, and history create civilization specific abilities.

Turn this feature off to play a realistic game!

[Explorer579]

Map

Obiously Earth is 75% water and is made up of continents! So I select similar settings when I start a new game. I also select raging barbarians! Our world was --and still is -- full of them!

Moe

[FrostyBoy]

75% water, but thats not going to give enough land to build a civilization that is close to realism in Civ3. The map needs to be superhuge!

[Optimizer]

The naval part of Civ 1, Civ 2 and Civ 3 is underdeveloped. Please read my Maritime Manifesto for opinions, ideas and comments.

[Explorer579]

Warp effect is unrealisting

When you are unwelcome within the borders of another civilization, and the other civilization asks you to leave automatically or declare war, and you agree to leave, your units are moved to the next available neutral land (or your own borders if closer). This action, in advanced stages of the game where most tiles are within some civilization's borders, causes a "warp" effect, which transport the units from one end of the continent to another in one turn --something that would take as much as 20 turns if moved one tile per turn!

There should be limitation on this warp effect for civ3 to be more realistic. Suggestions:
1) Move units not more than 5 tiles.
2) Move to closest naval units if within 5 tiles.
3) Offer disbanding of the units.
4) Offer automatic movement of the units where you cannot control the movement for the next 5 moves and the computer force the units to move away to neutral or to a distant spot within current borders.
5) Offer disarming of the units, which causes them to become defenseless workers, settlers, or explorers!

[Explorer579]

Originally posted by Optimizer
The naval part of Civ 1, Civ 2 and Civ 3 is underdeveloped. Please read my Maritime Manifesto for opinions, ideas and comments.

With permission, i am reposting it so i can quote and reply.

------------------------------------

A Maritime Manifesto

In Civ 3, as well as in its predecessors, naval units are expensive, slow and weak. They are not used unless necessary, which harms historical realism, strategic depth and fun.

Historical realism
From the bronze age until the advent of railroads, sea travel was with little competition the fastest, safest, and most convenient means of transportation. The seas tied peoples together rather by dividing them, like mountains, forests and deserts did. One of the most important factors behind European technical superiority was that Europe is surrounded by calm waters - the Black Sea, the Mediterranean, the English Channel, the North Sea and the Baltic. No other continent has got this advantage. Someone said "Who controls the seas controls trade, and who controls trade controls the world."

Strategic depth
Civs on islands are predestinated losers. They will have a hard time expanding and finding resources.

Civ warfare is land warfare. Naval battles and blockades occur too rarely. In many games you don't really need to build a great navy.

Fun
The Civ world consists of continents with some kind of deep blue goop between them. This blue goop is mostly a problem; it yields little production unless you build expensive improvements, barbarians come from there, you cannot walk on it, and the vessels used to cross it are poor. To be drastic, water is a bit like the fungus in SMAC. If you start on an island, the beginning of the game will be tedious since you cannot explore or interact with other civs.



SOLUTIONS
The trade system is a good step forward from Civ 1 & 2, but not really enough. Much can be done through ordinary modding. Here are some points:

More and better naval units
Here is a suggestion of a unit setup.

I have added Timber as a strategic resource needed for most pre-steam ships. It would be very common in Forests and Jungles. (All trees consist of wood, but far from all are suited for shipbuilding.)

Transport units
* Raft: coast, carries one foot unit, moves 3
* Roundship: coast, carries 2 units, moves 4
* Longboat: sea, carries 1, moves 5
* Caravel: ocean, carries 2, moves 5, requires Timber
* Clipper: ocean, carries 3, moves 6, requires Timber
* Steamer: carries 4, moves 7, requires Iron and Coal
* Transport: carries 5, moves 8, requires Iron and Oil
* Superconductor Ship: carries 5, moves 10, requires Aluminium

Naval power units
* Galley: 1/1/4, coast, Timber
* Dromone: 2/2/4, coast, Timber & Saltpeter (Byzantine-style Galley with Greek fire)
* Ship of the Line: 3/4/5 (3/1/2), ocean, Timber Iron & Saltpeter
* Ironclad: 5/6/4 (4/1/2), zoc, sea, Iron Coal & Saltpeter
* Torpedo Boat: 8/4/6, sea, Iron & Coal
* Dreadnought: 10/12/6 (6/2/1), zoc, ocean, Iron & Coal
* Submarine: 8/4/5, Iron & Oil
* Battleship:14/16/7 (9/2/1), zoc, radar, Iron & Oil
* Destroyer: 7/8/8 (5/2/1), zoc, radar, Iron & Oil
* AEGIS cruiser: 9/10/8 (6/3/2), zoc, radar, Aluminium & Oil

The Carrier and the Submarine remain as before. One could introduce a Super Carrier, too.

I do not know what to do with the Privateer. It is sure fun, but historically the privateers never confrontated warships - just merchant ships. Maybe they could be made really cheap and used for blockades.

Other ideas conerning naval units
If naval power units can carry ground units (which some of them should - a battleship is big enough to hold many soldiers) will the AI use it to transport them?

Sonar buoy - a naval unit with stats 0/1/1, radar, sub, sees subs. Deploy these to watch your enemy.

Demolition ships, like in Age of Kings (missile type?)

Ships can be given the Intercept ability to shoot down passing aircraft, but does it work properly? And can fighters on a Carrier intercept?

Splitting the Harbor improvements into several ones
* Dock (20 shields, expansionist) - gives food bonus
* Goods Port (40 shields, commercial, expansionist) - allows sea trade and provides some culture
* Naval Regiment (40 shields, military) - produces veteran ships


Giving the Marine flag to several units
Assaults from the sea have existed for a long time, so having only one kind of Marine unit is less than optimal. Mostly, convetional infantry have been used in landing operations, often with great casualties. (Think of D-day!) It would be better to remove the Marine and give its ability to several foot units at different technology levels.

One could try Musketmen, Riflemen and Infantry. One possible problem is that these units are defensive, and the AI might not use them for sea assaults.


Removing the All as Road ability from the Explorer
This would make rough terrrain an obstacle throughout the game, and promote expansion over the seas. The Explorer can become useful if it has the Submarine flag, which will make it invisible. Then you can use it to spy on your enemy within his borders, unless he happens to move a combat unit into its square.

Increasing the Commerce output of coast/sea/ocean

To be continued...

What do you think?

[Explorer579]

Originally posted by Explorer579

From the bronze age until the advent of railroads, sea travel was with little competition the fastest, safest, and most convenient means of transportation. The seas tied peoples together ....

Great manifesto! Come to think of it, roads in civ3 generate trade and I never liked that. Most of our tax money goes to maintaining roads and highway. Roads should cost money for maintenance. But the sea is free transportation. In this aspect by discouraging building roads (associate a cost factor with it) you will promote sea transport and operations.

I never liked the idea that civ3 map ends up being full of roads and railroads. These should cost money not bring trade. People should plan their road locations very carefully so they are strategically located. Wars are won by controlling roads. By making roads expensive, civ3 would increase realism. Consequently, sea faring is encouraged because it is free!

[Explorer579]

Originally posted by Explorer579


The Civ world consists of continents with some kind of deep blue goop between them.

Oceans are more difficult to travel because ships used to run out of supply in early ages and face stormy waters. Sea tiles are easier to travel because they are closer to shore.

I never understood how in the middle of the ocean with no islands around, the map generator generates few sea tiles! This is unrealistic.

The definition of coast, sea, and ocean should be directly a function of the distance from the closest land mass. It should not be random.
1) Coast: a water tile adjacent to land mass
2) See: 3 water tiles within land mass
3) Ocean:anything that is more than 3 water tiles away from the closest land mass.

[Explorer579]

Originally posted by Explorer579


I have added Timber as a strategic resource needed for most pre-steam ships. It would be very common in Forests and Jungles.

Correct. Timber should be required to build ships and should be a strategic resource. Ancient Egypt imported timber from Phoenecia because they did not have enough of it.

I also don't like it when by the end of the game all forests disappear from the map! If timber were made a strategic resource, players will keep forests around. This is more realistic.

The question is how much if your land should be forrested! That is a tough question that cannot be answered without adding complexity to the game.

[Druuge]

My point is - the speed of the ships is not reasonable.

I an not sure if the roads should not generate trade or no to; If they wouldn't any then it would be too tough - maybe road-connected colonies should generate trade for closest friendly city?

I *completely* agree with Explorer597 - the ships MUST be better and DEFINITELY faster. I liked the exploration scenario for Civ II because ships had there a reasonable speed. The speed of ships should be doubled. Alternative could be that the speed of the ships should correlate with map size. Compare the speed of ships with railroad - it is ridiculous!

Luckily the railroad is less good in Civ III - thanks for the creators. At least I cannot use the RR on enemy territory as - no "howitzer run" anymore.

I noticed that in Civilization board game the coastal trading seems to be more emphasized than in civ III - pre RR trade range is highest via naval transport! Well, by dividing the seas to three categories - coast, sea and ocean is a thing which allows a lot of modification!

There might be some problems too, with just increasing the speed -> next post.

[Druuge]

Assuming the trireme's stats are 1/1/6 it can create some problems. It could boost early exploration too much - I mean sailing on the coasts of the continents. So with the current possibilities I'd prefer a "standard" trireme with 3 movement. On the world map It would be not good, if I'd reach too far! Green light to frigate, red to trireme.

When I could wish for a flag for a unit, then I'd wish for something like this - 1/16 or 1/32 chance of drowning any time, anywhere.

If I could wish for something else, then there should be a difference with a coast adjacent to sea and a coast adjacent to ocean; the latter should be dangerous for triremes - an ocean is an ocean, after all. I think that the coast of Algier, for example, is much safer place to travel when compared to Gulf of Biskaia or Chile, for example.

Note - I agree that *coastal mountains* would make disembarking impossible. Not hills, but mountains definitely. It can be done by modding - make everything wheeled

BTW - interesting thread.