combatting the AI's ICS strategy?

[Bella Hella]

i couldn't really find anything on this when i searched, but i'm sure this is a pain for everybody. you diligently build your cities 4 squares away from each other to allow for expansion, and the stupid AI builds a city exactly between them. or in the middle of the tundra at the top of your continent. or ON THE BORDER LINE of your territory. or whatever. this happens to me in every game.

the way i see it, there are only a few solutions:

- get military units to guard every single square in your territory (or the borders) so the AI can't get through
- build a city there yourself
- let the AI build their cities in the middle of your territory and wait until they overthrow their oppressors because their culture sucks and defect to your civ
- let the AI build the city and take it over by force

i'm basically a builder, so going to war over one friggin' useless little crap town doesn't appeal to me too much. plus, making my empire actually look COOL is a big priority with me, and having some dinky size 1 town in the middle of your desert doesn't exactly give you a lot of style points.

has anyone come up with a clever way of handling this, or is it just one of those delightful little funny ha ha things in the game that you just have to live with?

related questions:
- in SMAC/SMAX, you could burn the base to the ground, but it was an atrocity and would cause the other factions to hate you forever. is this also true in civ3?
- i haven't figured out how to abandon cities yet, except in the above scenario, and when you build a settler in a town that's too small. (i know, i suck.) how do you do this?

[Feyd]

Agree, but maybe a solution?

Bella,

There are basically three options as I see it, and being a builder as well with MUCH the same ideas as you have mentioned in this posts (If it ain't pretty, I ain't happy), here's what I tend to do in these situations.

First option is to build a culture bomb in every city around the problem one in order to make it pop faster. I had so many in one uninhabited portion of my continent that I hadn't got around to occupying that I won by cultural victory from the huge amount of culture I was getting each turn! (had to be near 2000!) The problem with this solution is that (1) it still takes forever and (2) unless you thought to disable it at the beginning, you could wind up getting a gay ass culture victory

Second option is to have a lot of fun and BUILD a military. I'm super anal when it comes to units. I sometimes look from turn to turn at my military advisor's sheet to make sure that I have 15 calvary/10 destroyers/3 transports/etc. (insert your own units/numbers here). I like delegating the breakdown of units. Not only does it allow me to organize things like I'm sure all true builders do, but it really helps me understand what a single unit is capable of. For example, in this last game I was playing, the Chinese were ahead of me on points for the majority of the game AND they had recently settled seven cities on my continent (3 in a mountain/hill area, 2 on an island I shared w/ him off the coast, and 2 in this huge desert/plains area that I had neglected.) Anyway, I got mutual protection pacts with all of China's neighbors and quickly built up a military force. The pacts kept him from quickly retaliating across the ocean and I had about five calvary per city I was targeting with infantry prepared to go in and fortify... I knew with the calvary's limitations and the posibility of counter attack and their low defense exactly what I needed b/c I've done the same thing and wound up with dead horses. Luckilly things went to plan this time. I waited for him to trespass like the computer ALWAYS does... Bam, you broke the treaty, declare war, two turns later it's "Mao who?" I lost one unit where I had misdirected a calvary and that was it. It's quick and painless to clear your continent in this manner... (of course it doesn't work so good when the problem cities have all different owners)

Finally, there's a third option that is a bit more difficult, but painless and productive. Become the worlds only super power and have everybody fearing you, but only the threat...not the actual killing that will hurt your rep. Anyway, get powerful and then re-negotiate peace with the owner of the city. If it's a small one and he's rather scared of going to war with you then you'll probably get the city. Free best quality availible from resources unit already in it and all it cost you was a trip to your diplomat screen. Obviously this is the best choice, but I don't know how feasible it is due to the computer's notorious stubborness.

Anyway, I hope that helped and hopefully I can discuss it more when I'm not on my way to bed.

[Nym]

Re: combatting the AI's ICS strategy?

Originally posted by Bella Hella
- let the AI build their cities in the middle of your territory and wait until they overthrow their oppressors because their culture sucks and defect to your civ

As I am a builder too, I would say it is the best idea. If the city really is in the middle of your territory, you can then cut all roads to that city, disconnecting it from the AI's capital; culture flip will be so easier. Then rush build culture improvement, especially if the AI is quite culture oriented. In my current game I applied this strategy against the Zulus and it was really successful (I got about ten cities). But in fact this strategy need to be patient.

- i haven't figured out how to abandon cities yet, except in the above scenario, and when you build a settler in a town that's too small. (i know, i suck.) how do you do this?

You can abandon a city by either building a settler when the city is size 2 or less, or a worker when the city is size 1. For both the main condition is that the city does not produce extra food.

[zulu9812]

Re: combatting the AI's ICS strategy?

Originally posted by Bella Hella
- in SMAC/SMAX, you could burn the base to the ground, but it was an atrocity and would cause the other factions to hate you forever. is this also true in civ3?
- i haven't figured out how to abandon cities yet, except in the above scenario, and when you build a settler in a town that's too small. (i know, i suck.) how do you do this?

Razing a city does indeed lower your diplomatic regard, but is not an atrocity (using a nuclear weapon is considered an atrocity and will cause roughly half the world to go to war with you)

To abandon a city, right click and select "Abandon city" Unfortunately, you don't get anything back like a settler, or even a worker.

[Nym]

Re: Re: combatting the AI's ICS strategy?

Originally posted by zulu9812
To abandon a city, right click and select "Abandon city" Unfortunately, you don't get anything back like a settler, or even a worker.

I didn't know. With which patch is it implemented ?

[zulu9812]

v.1.21f

[Nym]

Originally posted by zulu9812
v.1.21f

That's it. Not yet installed, but should be this week-end.

[Primus40]

has anyone come up with a clever way of handling this, or is it just one of those delightful little funny ha ha things in the game that you just have to live with?

Being an avid CIV fan (isn't that why were here?), I purchased CIV III one day after release and have been playing with version 1.07f ever since - preferring to wait until the patch phase slows a bit before "upgrading" my game. One of the strategies I have developed to counteract the predilection for the other Civs to build "on top" of you is to use the cultural borders aspect of CIV III to my advantage.

Try to choose a Civ that is industrious and allows the Colossus to be built immediately. Of course starting location is everything, but if you can build your first city on the coast and near fresh water if possible. Build a warrior, then another worker then a settler... go for the Colossus next. The first worker should be building roads that lead to your next town(s) location(s). Your first couple towns should follow the old CIV standard, keeping them tightly interlaced by city square size. Defense can be shared / transferred quickly this way.

Use the workers to improve the land around these first towns... get them up to speed as quick as possible. Alternate back and forth between building settlers and defensive units, letting the population build up before knocking it back down. I usually research to get Chariots or Horsemen ASAP and build a couple as well to start scouting territory and ridding the area of those pesky Barbarians as they pop up.

The next phase of research is to get to Libraries. Between a temple and a library, you can reach that first cultural level quite quickly and expand you influence (i.e. borders). I forgo walls altogether, my defensive units seem to work fine until I can build population past the point of walls being useful anyhow.

Now, here's the key... once you have a couple towns producing things this way and growing steady, send out your mounted units to find your opponents and see what they are up to. Which way are they expanding? Begin building towns in an arc at these perimeters... allowing your opponent a bit of room to expand or they WILL jump in between and on top of you as noted. But the idea is to build a perimeter area and expand those towns culturally as quick as possible so their borders interconnect and effectively "seal-off" your territory. Now you can back build in the protected open spaces at your preference and leisure.

If your workers have been improving your first town the Colossus should be built during this time and this city can knock out units to send out to protect these towns while the other cities you were using can now work on self-improvements. You can use your own creativity from there. Oh, yes... and build workers to connect these outer towns and keep your Civ connected, happy and productive.

This strategy has worked very well for me in several different games to allow expansion and let me make my empire "actually look COOL" the way I want it. Yes, I still get the occasional AI city stuck in between these outside towns but my cultural influence soon absorbs them... but the main portion of my empire is the way I want it. With the addition of the "abandon city" option in version 1.21f now I can get rid of these minor nuisances as well!

[Bella Hella]

rock on. i'll try to implement some of these strategies next time i start a new game (uh.. tonight? ). i particularly like the perimeter idea. thanks!