Mutual Protection Pacts

[Oddible]

A couple questions about MPPs if anyone may offer some insight:

1) How do you cancel one?
France initiated an MPP with me and 100 turns later it was in effect. I cannot see how to cancel it.

2) MPP as an offensive tool only
I read a great post in another area of the forums which discussed many great ways to play MPPs - how to get the opponent to attack you so your MPPs will help you capture territory. However, it would seem that the MPP is really only an offensive tool.

Do MPPs prevent civs from initiating aggression with me? I mean if I have an MPP with the baddest civ on the map, why would a civ which is my equal (and not necessarily hating me) attack me?

On the offensive note, it would seem that AI civs use the MPP as an offensive tool as well. China initiates an MPP with me and the next turn attacks the Aztecs. Suddenly I'm drawn into their little offensive. I only agreed to protect them if they were attacked (Mutual PROTECTION Pact). Yet the game forces me to declare war. I wish that I had the choice to declare war and that if I didn't that I would suffer negative feedback from my MPP partner. Or just not have to participate if it is all for some land grab that my partner civ is involved in.

[Rage]

To cancel a mpp (i think) u wait 20 turns then click o active when in diplomatic contact with them then then just click the mpp

[Taxidopolis]

I don't know why you have a permanent MPP unless you've been accepting Peace Treaties with France as and when they expire after the usual 20 turns. Do you remember having any of the usual messages about it Oddible ? Or maybe you're counting passage of years instead of turns ???. If you go to the Foreign Adviser screen, speak to France, then click on the 'active' option at bottom of screen, the pact arrangement will be shown and the number of turns left to expiry in front of it.

Any road up, I don't think it's possible to directly cancel an MPP. The only route out is via the renegotiation of the existing Peace arrangements between yourself and France (hit the'active' button at bottom of negotiating screen to get started on that). Be careful here tho...if you next click on Peace (Peace will be highlighted in blue text) and then choose to negotiate the existing Peace arrangements you either arrive at an agreement or don't. If you don't, you will declare war. I think this way is the correct way to issue an ultimatum....if you demand say 100 gold from a neighbour in the usual dialogue box and they decline you're not actually threatening war. You can simply declare war but this is unprovoked according to the AI and your rep becomes tarnished I think.

As an offensive or defensive tool, the MPP is really useful. The whole Diplomacy thing with Civ 3 is massively improved over earlier versions. The AI will ally with what appears to be a bit of strategic thinking too...weaker will tie in with stronger via an MPP to deflect potential aggressors, an agressor will try and tie in anybody prior to initiating war to buffer itself etc. Fascinating...

MPP's do lessen the likelihood of war against you but they don't guarantee it will not happen. In the scenario you give, the civ could have picked on you for a number of reasons: maybe had a trade agreement it couldn't afford any longer, maybe in the hope of triggering a Golden Age, maybe the civ's characteristic, maybe to release unease caused by 'trespassing' troops, maybe you were neighbours and the culture boundary became too tight and this was the only way out...there's probably other subtleties too. Maybe they just siigned an alliance ?

I agree with you on the 'protection' bit and your partner dragging you into war but hey, I'd rather have this whole new diplomacy thing than the Civ 2 one which just, well, sucked.

[Harovan]

Just be a diplomat and not a bully

It's not important with how many other civs you are playing. Always remember the fact, your opponent is "the AI", with a defined number of faces (other civs). And if "the AI" decides to drag you in a war, because you are gotten too strong and it's time to cut your wings, it will without any doubt.

So it's not important if you are in a MPP or not, you will get a war for sure. The only difference is, that with the MPP you will have one or more allies, and without you are alone. Probably the AI's will make a network of MPP's with each other and one of the "bad guys" will attack you, dragging all others into a war with you.

I found out the best way to stay in peace (as long as you want), is:

- treat everyone with respect and don't bully them, even if they bully you.
- if they are military stronger, they will ask for tribute. Pay it the first few times, it mostly doesn't hurt so much, and understand it as a warning to build up your armies. Once you are military strong, they will cease to bully you.
- active trade (sell your goodies like techs, luxuries and resources and don't expect them to sell theirs for a fair price)
- don't drain too much money from the AI, as it will attack you when a civ is bankrupt. Better give them a fair price or even a little bonus (take less than they offer)
- give them a small gift like a free tech or a luxury every now and then, especially your direct neighbors
- make active diplomacy and visit everybody at least once in 20 turns, better more often, and make a little trade, and be it only world maps.
- don't get too far ahead, 4-5 techs are sufficient

In a current game at Marla's map (me as Egypt) I am even friends with Germany, Japan and the Zulus (they are in most games the chief bullies). They are polite or even gracious, and the weak Russia is annoyed. Well, if Russia attacks, I am sure my friend Bismarck will make hamburgers of them.

Be a diplomat, even if it hurts sometimes. Policy is a dirty business.

[Taxidopolis]

Re: Just be a diplomat and not a bully

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
It's not important with how many other civs you are playing. Always remember the fact, your opponent is "the AI", with a defined number of faces (other civs). And if "the AI" decides to drag you in a war, because you are gotten too strong and it's time to cut your wings, it will without any doubt.

Apols if I don't get the quote thingy right Sir Ralph, aint used it before....

A Mutual Protection Pact definitely can deflect attention away from you as a target. My last game I used the 16 civs normal map size mod just so as to experiment with diplomacy, me French at Monarch level. Middle Ages I was ahead of the pack, trade embargos start to happen and Rome, very strong neighbour attacks me. Revert to saved game and bribe the English into a MPP....Rome declares war on Russia instead. I also reverted to saved game and tried other options, including Rome successfully, as allies. Sometimes I was dragged into their fight, sometimes the peace held.

So, from this game experience at least, the AI plays itself as much as it does the human player and you can avoid a war by diplomacy. Hope this helps....