Modding Challenge. Ancient Advances

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

I have some far reaching changes to technologies etc that I'd like to suggest to any of the VERY talented modders out there in the community. I realize that some of these changes have already been suggested (or even already done), I just include it all for the sake of completion. I'll start with just the ancient tech tree. If the modders respond favourably to my ideas, then I'll proceed to Middle Ages and up.

Ancient Techs and Units:

Smelting: Prerequisites: Bronze Working.
Allows: Smithy-Improvement. Production-2. Requires Copper resource.
Leads to: Iron Working.

Woodworking: Prerequisites: None.
Allows: Wood-Strategic Resource.
Allows: Carpenters-Improvement. Production-1, requires wood to build.
Leads to: The Wheel.

Stone Crafting: Prerequisites: None.
Allows: Stone-Strategic Resource.
Allows: StoneMasons Workshop-Improvement. Production-1, requires stone to build.
Leads to: Masonry.

Military Training: Prerequisites: Warrior Code.
Allows: Military Academy-Minor Wonder. Requires 5 barracks to build.
Allows: Cohorts (3/2/2)-Unit. Like Swordsmen, except better discipline allows them to travel greater distances and retreat from most battles. Requires Iron.
Leads to: Aristocracy (with mysticism).

Cavalry Tactics: Prerequisites: Horseback Riding and Military Training.
Allows: Armoured Horsemen (2/2/2)-Unit. The introduction of the first Barding (horse armour) allows these horse units to absorb more damage. Requires Horses and Iron.

Aristocracy: Prerequisites: Mysticism and Military Training.
Allows: Villa-Improvement. Reduces Corruption and +50% tax revenue.
Leads to: Monarchy (with Polytheism) and Athenian Democracy.

Athenian Democracy: Prerequisites: Aristocracy.
Allows: Ampitheatre (Forum)-Improvement. Reduces # of cities corruption.
Allows: Parthenon-Great Wonder. Doubles effect of ampitheatres and reduces war weariness in all cities on same continent. Requires stone to build (Athenian Democracy Only).

Empire: Prerequisites: Monarchy and Map Making.
Allows: Slaves (0/0/2)-Unit. Like a worker, except cheaper to build and no maintenance cost. Requires Indigenous Population.
Allows: Slave Labour System-Minor Wonder. Gives +50% Production to all cities on same continent. Requires Indigenous Population. Expansionist characteristics.

Changes to Existing Advances:

Republic: Allows: Senate-Minor Wonder. Reduces # of cities corruption for all cities on same continent. Requires min. 5 cities to build. Expansionist characteristics (Republic Governments only).
Allows: Garrison-Improvement. Acts as police station. Militaristic characteristics.

Iron Working: Allows: Foundry-Improvement. Production-2. Requires Iron and Smithy to build.

Mathematics: Allows: Pythagoras' School-Great Wonder. 2x research.

Writing: Allows: Scribes' School-Improvement. +50% science.

Philosophy: Allows: Academy-Improvement. +50% science.
Allows: School of Socrates-Great Wonder. 2x Research.

Code of Laws: Allows: Chichen Itza-Great Wonder. Acts as couthouse in every city.

Polytheism: Allows: Valley of the Kings-Great Wonder. Reduces unhappiness by 2 in all cities on same continent. Requires Stone to build. Religious characteristics.

Pottery: Allows: Barley-Strategic Resource.

Bronze Working: Allows: Copper-Strategic Resource.

Mysticism: Allows: Opium-Luxury Resource

Monarchy: Allows: Governors Palace-Improvement. Reduces distance-based corruption.
Allows: Royal Gaurd (3/4/1)-Unit. These units are the pride of the ruling monarch, and are given the best weapons and armour to destroy the monarchs enemies (Monarchy only).

Engineering: Should be brought back to Ancient times. Allows: Sewer Channels-Improvement. Allows City Size 3. Adds to Population pollution.
Allows: Lumber Yard-Improvement. Production-2. Requires wood to build.

New Resources:

Copper: Required for building Hoplites, Spearmen, Smithy and Media Networks.

Indigenous Population: Required to build Slaves and Slave Labour System. These squares give bonus commerce.

Wood: Very common resource required for building Galleys, Frigates, Galleons and Caravels.

Stone: Common resource appearing in mountains. Required to build Great Wall, Pyramids and Valley of the Kings.

Opium: Luxury resource. Increases corruption in cities that use it.

Barley: Strategic/Bonus resource. Gives bonus food to the square it's in. Needed to build Distillery.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Now for Middle Ages

Middle Ages Techs:

Trade Specialities: Prerequisites: Feudalism and Engineering (Invention?)
Allows: Trade Guilds-Improvement. Production-2; +25% Tax Rate.
Obsoletes: Smithy, Carpenters, Stonemasons and Foundry.
Leads to: Education (with Theology) and Banking.

Seige Tactics: Prerequisites: Feudalism and Engineering.
Allows: Siege Tower (6/2/1)-Unit.
Allows: Ballista: (0/0/1) (6/2/1) or (7/1/1)-Unit.

Distillation: Prerequisites: Monarchy.
Allows: Distillery-Improvement: Increased Happiness; Culture. Requires Barley to Build.
Allows: Fire Catapult (0/0/1 (5/1/1))-Unit. A Catapult that throws a missile ignited by Greek fire.
Allows: Greek Fire Galley (2/1/3)-Unit. A galley that carries a catapult/ballista capable of firing ignited missiles.
Leads to: Chemistry (With Invention)

Emancipation: Prerequisites: Democracy.
Allows: Bill of Rights-Minor Wonder. Increases happiness by 2 for all cities. Cultural wonder.
Obsoletes: Slaves (Upgraded to workers) and Slave Labour System.

Altered Middle Ages Advances:

Education: Prerequisites: Theology and Trade Specializations.
Allows: Supreme Court-Minor Wonder. Reduces # of cities and distance from capital corruption
Obsoletes: Academy, Schools of Pythagoras and Socrates.

Banking: Prerequisites: Trade Specializations.

Economics: Prerequisites: Banking and Education.

Democracy: Prerequisites: Printing Press and Education.
Allows: Parliament-Minor Wonder. Reduces Distance Corruption for all cities on same continent. Produces culture. Requires minimum of 10 cities to build.
Allows: Prison-Improvement. Reduces # of cities Corruption.
Allows: Statue of Liberty-Great Wonder. Decreases War Weariness and unhappiness of all cities on same continent (Democracy Only)
Obsoletes: Senate and Garrison.

Invention: Allows: Mill-Improvement. Production-2.
Allows Artisans Quarter-Improvement. Production-1, increased luxury trade.

Chemistry: Prerequisites: Invention and Distillation.
Allows: Saltpeter-Strategic Resource.
Allows: Alchemists Lab-Improvement. +50% Science.

Feudalism: Allows: Feudal Manor House-Improvement. Increases production by +25%, increased luxary trade, causes unhappiness. (Monarchy only).


Printing Press: Allows: Printing Press-Improvement. Increases happiness in city. Produces culture.
Allows: Gutenberg Bible-Great Wonder. Continental Hapiness effects.
Obsoletes: Parthenon. Valley of the Kings.

Music Theory: Allows: Music Hall-Improvement. Increased happiness.
Allows: J.S. Bach's Cathedaral-Great Wonder. Doubles Effect of Music Halls on Same Continent.

Free Artistry: Allows: Theatre-Improvement. Increased Happiness.
Allows: Complete Works of William Shakespeare. Doubles effect of theatres on same continent.

Delete Theory of Gravity and move Newtons University to Physics.

Theology: Allows: Theocracy-Government.
Allows: Crusader (5/3/3)-Unit. The religious devotion of these "knights templar" makes them willing to undergo long and dangerous journeys and fight with zeal when they reach their destination. Requires Horses and Iron to build.
Obsoletes: Valley of the Kings.

Military Tradition: Allows: National War Memorial-Minor Wonder. Reduces War Weariness and produces culture. Requires 5 victorious land units to build.

[Bane Star]

These will be greatly appreciated, some I have, some I thought of, but your list adds the extra ideas that I haven't fleshed out yet, thanx

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Now for the Industrial Age

Industrial Age Techs:

Fascism: Prerequisite: Nationalism.
Allows: The Geneva Convention-Great Wonder. Increases happiness in ALL cities in Civilization. Cultural Improvement.
Allows: Forced Labour Camp-"Improvement". Increases production by +50%; negative culture, causes unhappiness (Fascism and Communism Only).
Allows: Re-education Centre-"Improvement". Reduces distance and # of cities corruption and makes city less susceptible to Propaganda, negative culture and makes people unhappy (Fascism and Communism only).
Allows: War Rallies-Minor Wonder. Reduces War weariness in all cities on continent and reduces susceptibility to propaganda. Requires 5 media networks to build (Fascism and Communism only).
Allows: Stormtrooper (9/6/2)-Unit. Treats all terrain as road. These soldiers are the chief weapon in the Fascist Blitzkrieg. Using a combination of foot-soldiers, trucks and motorcycles to move around.

Geurilla Tactics: Prerequisites: Communism and Espionage.
Allows: Rebel Camps-Strategic Resource. Found only in hills, jungles and forest.
Allows: Geurillas (8/5/2)-Unit. Treats all terrain as roads. Hidden Nationality. These freedom fighters are good for harrasing the enemy as a prelude to an attack, or for attacking neigbours without drawing attention to yourself! Requires Rebel Camps and Saltpeter to build.

Labour Rights: Prerequisites: Communism and Industrialisation.
Allows: The Welfare State-Minor Wonder. Reduces # of cities corruption in all cities within your Civ. Increases happiness. Requires 5 factories to build.

Changes to existing techs:

Nationalism: Obsoletes: Crusader.

Industrialization: Obsoletes: Artisans Quarter and Guild.

Electricity: Allows: National Electricity Grid-Minor Wonder. Increases production by 50%, reduces waste. Requires 5 Power plants to build.

The Corporation: Allows: Stock Exchange-Improvement. Increases Commerce by +50%.
Steel: Allows: Eiffel Tower-Great Wonder. +50% tax and continental happiness effects.
Allows: Steel-Strategic Resource. (I know that steel is an amalgam of carbon and iron, but I thought I'd fudge it.) All post ironclad industrial age naval vessels, tanks, mech-infantry and industrial age aircraft require this to resource to be built.
Allows: Modern Foundry-Improvement. Production-2. Causes pollution. Requires steel to build.

Medicine: Allows: Hospital-Improvement. Allows City size 4.
Allows: National Health Service-Minor Wonder. Increases happiness in all cities. Requires 5 hospitals to build.

Sanitation: Allows: Sewerage Treatment Plant-Improvement. Reduces Population pollution (eliminates pollution caused by sewer channels).

Radio: Allows: United Nations-Great Wonder.
Allows: Media Network-Improvement. Reduces City Distance Corruption. Increases happiness. Requires Copper resource to build.

Refining: : Allows: Oil Refinery-Improvement. Production-2, Pollution. Requires Oil to build.

Combustion: Allows: Chemical Plant-Improvement. Production-1, Pollution. Requires Saltpeter to build.

Flight: Allows: Spirit of St. Louis-Great Wonder. +1 trade in each trade producing tile. (Represents first intercontinental flight.)

Amphibious War: Allows: Naval Shipyards-Improvement. Production-2, Pollution, Coastal.

Mass Production: Allows: Assembly line-Improvement. Production-2, Pollution.

Motorized transportation: Allows: Freeways-Improvement. +50% tax, increases luxury trade.

Refrigeration: Prerequisites: Steel and Electricity.
Allows: Supermarkets-Improvement. +25% Taxes and less waste.

Advanced Flight: Allows: Dive Bomber (3/2/1)-Unit. Can carry up to 2 torpedo units (like cruise missile, except 15/1/1). Used to kill enemy ships and ground units. (Thanks go to Korn for this idea!!)
Alternatively Allows: Dive Bomber (14/2/4)-Unit. Technically a ground unit, but treats all tiles (land and sea) as road (thus, has a true move of 12). Specialized for killing ground targets, but poor on defense.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Last but not least-Modern Era

New Modern Techs:

Fusion Power: Prerequisites: SuperConductor and Nuclear Power.
Allows: Fusion Plant-Improvement. As Nuclear plant, but no meltdown chance and no pollution.
Allows: Thermonuclear Warhead-Unit. More powerful version of an ICBM. Requires uranium to build (for the fission trigger!) Alternative:
Allows: Deuterium-Strategic Resource. Common and available on coastal and river bank terrain (bit of a fudge). Needed to build TNW and Fusion Plants.

Changes to existing techs:

Rocketry: Allows: Tactical Nukes.
Allows: Fighter/Bomber (7/4/1)-Unit. Acts like dive bomber available with Advanced flight.

Ecology: Allows: Silica-Strategic Reource. Common resource occuring in deserts and coastal areas. Required to build Solar Plant.
Allows: Wind Farm-Improvement. Acts as Solar Plant, but requires no silica to build.
Allows: Climate Change Protocol-Minor Wonder. Reduces Building Pollution in every city on same continent.

Space Flight: Allows: ICBM's.

Computers: Allows: Attack Helicopter (24/12/4)-Unit. Treats all terrain as roads.
Allows: Internet-Minor Wonder. Increases science, happiness and reduces distance corruption. Requires 5 media networks to build.
Leads to: Robotics.

Robotics: Allows: Howitzers (0/0/1) (16/2/2)-Unit.

The Laser: Allows: Radar Artillery (0/0/1) (16/3/2) or (18/2/2)-Unit.
Allows: Microwave Transmission Tower-Improvement. Increases effectiveness of Solar plants and Nuclear Plants by +25%

Sattelites: Allows: Global Satellite network-minor wonder. Allows builder to see entire map.

New Minor Wonder: Beamed Power Station. Requires Satellites and Laser to build. Requires 5 Solar Plants to Build. Increases effectiveness of Solar Plants by +25%, counts as Solar Plant in every city. Using a combination of solar collecting sattelites and Microwave Towers, this wonder can beam power from centralized stations all across your civilization, with little power lost along the way.

Anyway, thats pretty much it for now. Later today, I hope to put in general suggestions covering all eras.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Some general Changes

1. Downgrade Universal Sufferage to minor wonder status.

2. Increase all MP's for ground units as follows:
heavy weapons (muksets/pikes/spears): Move-2.
Early siege weapons (catapult/cannon): Move-2.
Standard foot soldiers/Artillery: Move-3.
Light infantry/heavy horsemen/chariots/Howitzers: Move-4
Light horse/knights/tanks/mech infantry/Radar Artillery: Move-5
Modern Armour/Cavalry: Move-6.
All UU's with higher movement get +1 to the their movement category.

3. Double all MP allowances for ancient/medeival ships. Triple MP's for industrial/modern age ships.

4. Give units a tech level modifier to attack and defense strength as follows:
Ancient:1X (ie. stays the same)
Ancient/Middle Ages:1.5X
Middle Ages:2X
Middle Ages/Industrial:2.5X
Industrial:3X
Indutrial/Modern:3.5X
Modern 4X.
This means that, in a dual between modern infantry and a spearman, the infantry would have stats of 18/30/3 and the spearman would only have 1/2/2. Meaning athe infantry will have a 90% chance of inflicting damage, compared to a 3.2% chance for the spearman (and, of course, on the off-chance that the spearman should inflict MAJOR damage, the infantry can now RETREAT!!!)

5. All bombardment strengths should be similarly increased. (This will of course make modern howitzers a nightmare against improvements!!)

6. Increase range of bombardment units to 2 for Middle Ages and Industrial and 3 for the modern age.

7. Make all friendly roads grant 4 MP's, and all enemy roads count as 1 MP.

Anyway, I hope these suggestions make sense, and I hope someone out there will act on them soon.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

>>>>BUMP!!!

[Malleus]

A veritable feast of ideas Aussie, thanks for sending them out.

A concern I have (maybe you can share your thinking) is that you have a lot of new units in the Ancient Era that go obsolete (in one case right into the Middle Ages)...what would be my reason for building them? The benefits don't outweigh the cost in this case.
Looking at the list again, I am wondering if you would want to spread out the time scale even more (more turns), this would allow a lot of your ideas to take effect, but of course the downside is the game is really long already...

K

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Hi Kromwel,

I need some clarification, are you talking about ancient units or improvements/Wonders. If you are referring to the Wonders, then I'll admit that Feudalism was too early to obsolete Valley of the Kings and Parthenon. So I've made the neccessary changes-let me know what you think!
As for the units, I intend to have all units upgrade when they become obsolete. So armoured horsemen become knights and Cohorts become?? This is a major problem, Middle Ages seems to lack, to my mind, sufficient pre-gunpowder units!

To rectify this siutation I'm thinking of adding the following units:

Peasants: Availiable with Feudalism. Cheap to build, possibly (3/1/1) for stats. Cost 1 Pop. point to build. Obsoletesemocracy. Upgrades to Riflemen.

Conquistidors: Available with Navigation. Possible stats (4/2/1) Treats all terrain as roads. Obsoletes: Nationalism. Upgrades to Cavalry.

Condottierre: Availiable with Monotheism. Soldiers of the Pope. (3/3/1). Obsoletes: Nationalism. Upgrades to Riflemen.

Men-at-arms: Available with Chivalry. (3/4/1) or (4/3/1). Basic medieval soldiers armed with chainmail, sword and shield (possibly called Myrmidons). Obsoletes with Nationalism. Upgrades to Riflemen.

Axebearer: Available with Feudalism. (4/1/1) or (5/2/1). Soldiers wielding massive 2-handed axes quite able to take out armoured knights. Not very good at defending themselves (basically, one good swipe was ALL they got, then they were vulnerable!). Obsoletes: Metallurgy. Upgrades to Musketmen.

Move Longbow back to Engineering (and increase defense strength to 2).

Crossbowmen: Available with Invention. (5/2/1). Obsoletes: Metallurgy. Upgrades to Musketmen

New Advance: Alloys: Prerequisites: Engineering.
Allows: Forge-Improvement. Production-2. Requires Non-Ferrous Metals and Iron to build. Obsoletes with Industrialisation
Allows: Non-Ferrous Metals-Strategic Resource. Represents a miscelleny of non-precious metals mixed with iron to produce the bulk of weapons and armour of the Middle ages, which were much stronger and lighter than their ancient cousins. Is needed, with iron, to produce Condottiers, Axebearers, Pikemen, Knights (and their related UU's), men-at-arms and Conquistidores. Also required for Forge Improvement.
Leads to: Metallurgy (with Chemistry).

Anyway, please let me know what you think of these ideas and if you like them, I'll officially edit them in.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

[hetairoi22]

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
Hi Kromwel,

I need some clarification, are you talking about ancient units or improvements/Wonders. If you are referring to the Wonders, then I'll admit that Feudalism was too early to obsolete Valley of the Kings and Parthenon. So I've made the neccessary changes-let me know what you think!
As for the units, I intend to have all units upgrade when they become obsolete. So armoured horsemen become knights and Cohorts become?? This is a major problem, Middle Ages seems to lack, to my mind, sufficient pre-gunpowder units!

To rectify this siutation I'm thinking of adding the following units:

Peasants: Availiable with Feudalism. Cheap to build, possibly (3/1/1) for stats. Cost 1 Pop. point to build. Obsoletesemocracy. Upgrades to Riflemen.

Conquistidors: Available with Navigation. Possible stats (4/2/1) Treats all terrain as roads. Obsoletes: Nationalism. Upgrades to Cavalry.

Condottierre: Availiable with Monotheism. Soldiers of the Pope. (3/3/1). Obsoletes: Metallurgy. Upgrades to Musketmen.

Men-at-arms: Available with Chivalry. (3/4/1) or (4/3/1). Basic medieval soldiers armed with chainmail, sword and shield (possibly called Myrmidons). Obsoletes with Nationalism. Upgrades to Riflemen.

Axebearer: Available with Invention. (4/1/1) or (5/2/1). Soldiers wielding massive 2-handed axes quite able to take out armoured knights. Not very good at defending themselves (basically, one good swipe was ALL they got, then they were vulnerable!). Obsoletes: Metallurgy. Upgrades to Riflemen.

Anyway, please let me know what you think of these ideas and if you like them, I'll officially edit them in.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

Some nice ideas, BUT aren't there to many units... they seem to similar i think. Maybe chose Condottiere OR Man-at-Arms they are almost the same. I think the axebearers where called Helbardiers because of their pike/axe called the Helbard. I like the Conquistador and the Peasant ideas. The peasant must be really cheap, no? 10 shields?

I like your changes and ideas. Really cool

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Originally posted by hetairoi22

BUT aren't there to many units... they seem to similar i think. Maybe chose Condottiere OR Man-at-Arms they are almost the same.

You're probably right on this point, but I just thought it might add some variety!!
Actually, the big issue for me is that there are not enough units in the Ancient and Middle ages (all the focus seems to be on the Industrial/Modern age). This is dissapointing when you consider all the great battles from these early times.
Many of the units I've included here come from the many GREAT civ2 scenarios I've played (always from these eras!)

I think the axebearers were called Helbardiers because of their pike/axe called the Halbard.

Actually, the Pikeman in Civ3 represents ALL units that used Polearms-that is halberds, pikes et al. These Polearms were, with few exceptions, grossly oversized (between 4-8' in length) and could really only be used in static, defensive roles (the famous pikewalls of the late middle ages/renaissance)
The axemen I refer to weilded hefty axes, but no more than 3-4' in length. The soldiers could move with them, and they were strictly an OFFENSIVE weapon. Once they struck, it would be very difficult to get the axe into position for another blow before they were struck down. As I stated above, these units were very popular with the Anglo-Saxons in England during the reigns of Edward the Confessor and King Harold Godwinson.

I like the Conquistador and the Peasant ideas. The peasant must be really cheap, no? 10 shields?

Yes, the peasant would be VERY cheap, as there greatest cost is in lost population. I see this as pre-nationalism conscription (and it does have a strong basis in fact!!) These guys are basically cannon fodder used to wear down the opponent before bringing in your VALUABLE units!!
I like your changes and ideas. Really cool

Thank-you! I always like to get feedback on my ideas (good or bad). As I said above, this is a work in progress. So keep your eyes on this thread for more ideas as I think of them (although, I feel I'm close to the end of my endeavours).

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Hi There,

I've included an attachement of the Civ3stats.xls file appeared somewhere on this site. I've modified the tech tree to include all changes I've made to the Ancient and Middle Ages. I hope to finish the Inudtrial/Modern sometime in the next 2 days!!
Any feedback will be appreciated, and I soon hope to have all modifications done.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Hi,
I now am attaching a completley edited tech tree, as I said above, all suggestions and comments will be welcomed.

EDIT: I've updated the CivStats Edit Folder with a corrected tech tree (saw a number of errors in the print out!). I've also added in all the stats for my standard improvements! I hope that, by tommorrow, I'll have small and great wonders complete as well.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker

[hetairoi22]

Could you make a table o' techs in Word format? I don't have excel... Thanx.

[hetairoi22]

A problem with so many changes and Civ3 is that Civ3s editor has no Add buttons and the science advisor screens haven't got room for many techs, at ALL. It would also be really hard to add them because adjusments to the techtree (even small ones) make the science advisor screens quite buggy: The lines between techs don't match etc.

I love your ideas, it not that, but it would be very hard to make those changes with the current tools. There aren't many new graphics out either...

Regards,

H22